When to continue Approach or Approach Ban!
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When to continue Approach or Approach Ban!
I am having a question regarding decision point for the Cat 1 Approach. I have included a plate of Manchester, ILS DME Rwy 23R from Jeppesen.
From what I understand the approach can continue if above minimums at either 1000 ft AGL, or at Final Approach Fix (FAF) or Outer Marker (OM), you are allowed to continue the approach.
From the Jeppesen plate, the Maltese Cross, should mark the FAF, which on this approach is at 10 D (INN).
However having spoken to a real airline pilot, I was told on this approach, the decision would be at D 3.0 (INN), which he called Outer Marker Substitute or Final Approach Point (FAP)
Now this was the first time I had heard the expression FAP, and at D 3.0 (INN) you should be just over 1000 ft (1010)
What confuses me is that in all the text books I have read, it says the decision should be made at the FAF, if you OK at the FAF you can continue the approach, and Jeppesen explains the Maltese cross as the FAF on their approach plates.
Anybody that could spread some light on this please.
From what I understand the approach can continue if above minimums at either 1000 ft AGL, or at Final Approach Fix (FAF) or Outer Marker (OM), you are allowed to continue the approach.
From the Jeppesen plate, the Maltese Cross, should mark the FAF, which on this approach is at 10 D (INN).
However having spoken to a real airline pilot, I was told on this approach, the decision would be at D 3.0 (INN), which he called Outer Marker Substitute or Final Approach Point (FAP)
Now this was the first time I had heard the expression FAP, and at D 3.0 (INN) you should be just over 1000 ft (1010)
What confuses me is that in all the text books I have read, it says the decision should be made at the FAF, if you OK at the FAF you can continue the approach, and Jeppesen explains the Maltese cross as the FAF on their approach plates.
Anybody that could spread some light on this please.
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Hi TF,
FAF - Final Approach Fix on a non-precision approach.
FAP - Final Approach Point on a precision approach.
You will not have a FAF on an ILS but the FAP will be represented in the same way on Jepp charts (I think).
EU-OPS1 AD Operating Minimums has the following to say:
"EU-OPS 1 .17
Commencement and Continuation Of An Approach - Approach Ban (EU-OPS1)
An instrument approach may be commenced regardless of the reported RVR/VIS but the appraoch shall not be continued beyond the outer marker or equivalent position, if the reported RVR/VIS is less than the applicable minima...If after passing the outer marker or equivalent positionthe reported RVR/VIS falls below the applicable minimum, the approach may be continued to DA/MDA.
Where no OM or EP exist, the pilot shall make the decsion to continue or abandon the approach before descending below 1000ft AAL on the final approach segment. If the MDA is 1000ft or more AAL the operator shall establish a height for each approach procedure, below which the approach shall not be continued if the RVR/VIS is less than the applicable minimum.
The approach may be continued below DA or MDA and the landing maybe completed provided that the required visual reference is established at DA or MDA and is maintained..."
Tying that all in to the plate below:
a) The FAP marks the start of the final approach segment. In some cases this starts at 4D. In others, like MAN, its at 10D. The decision making bit really only applies to the OM/EP.
b) You would only use 1000' if there was no Outer Marker or EP specified.
c) There is no outer-marker, however, the GS check at 4DME constitutes the equivalent position (1580' AMSL). This is indicated by the GS check inclusion in the Briefing Strip. This therefore means that the decision to use 3D (1010') as the 1000' point would be questionnable. 4D is specified so use it (and indeed we do at MAN).
d) At 4.2D you ask for a check and they come back with "550/550/125". You can continue. At 3D its "125 full length". You can STILL continue because you are beyond the EP. If it is STILL 125 at DA but you can see sufficient elements of the approach lighting system (3 vertical and one lateral), you may continue. If you cant, you go-around, or indeed if the RVR is below minimums AT 4D.
Hope that helps!
BS
FAF - Final Approach Fix on a non-precision approach.
FAP - Final Approach Point on a precision approach.
You will not have a FAF on an ILS but the FAP will be represented in the same way on Jepp charts (I think).
EU-OPS1 AD Operating Minimums has the following to say:
"EU-OPS 1 .17
Commencement and Continuation Of An Approach - Approach Ban (EU-OPS1)
An instrument approach may be commenced regardless of the reported RVR/VIS but the appraoch shall not be continued beyond the outer marker or equivalent position, if the reported RVR/VIS is less than the applicable minima...If after passing the outer marker or equivalent positionthe reported RVR/VIS falls below the applicable minimum, the approach may be continued to DA/MDA.
Where no OM or EP exist, the pilot shall make the decsion to continue or abandon the approach before descending below 1000ft AAL on the final approach segment. If the MDA is 1000ft or more AAL the operator shall establish a height for each approach procedure, below which the approach shall not be continued if the RVR/VIS is less than the applicable minimum.
The approach may be continued below DA or MDA and the landing maybe completed provided that the required visual reference is established at DA or MDA and is maintained..."
Tying that all in to the plate below:
a) The FAP marks the start of the final approach segment. In some cases this starts at 4D. In others, like MAN, its at 10D. The decision making bit really only applies to the OM/EP.
b) You would only use 1000' if there was no Outer Marker or EP specified.
c) There is no outer-marker, however, the GS check at 4DME constitutes the equivalent position (1580' AMSL). This is indicated by the GS check inclusion in the Briefing Strip. This therefore means that the decision to use 3D (1010') as the 1000' point would be questionnable. 4D is specified so use it (and indeed we do at MAN).
d) At 4.2D you ask for a check and they come back with "550/550/125". You can continue. At 3D its "125 full length". You can STILL continue because you are beyond the EP. If it is STILL 125 at DA but you can see sufficient elements of the approach lighting system (3 vertical and one lateral), you may continue. If you cant, you go-around, or indeed if the RVR is below minimums AT 4D.
Hope that helps!
BS
Last edited by BugSpeed; 16th Mar 2012 at 11:56.
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The FAF is indicated on that chart because it is also a NPA plate for the LOC approach.
Just to help you trawl through your questions here is a site with all the JAR-OPS docs on it.
JAA | Publications & NPAs | JARs Section 1
If bugspeed ahas a link for EU-OPS I wouldn't mind it as well.
Just to help you trawl through your questions here is a site with all the JAR-OPS docs on it.
JAA | Publications & NPAs | JARs Section 1
If bugspeed ahas a link for EU-OPS I wouldn't mind it as well.
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Hi MJ!!
Sadly I dont. Just using all the PANS-OPS info from a book I've "borrowed" from work.............
If you can lay your hands on a copy of the Jeppesen General Flight Information Supplement Booklet (the grey one), its all in there. MUCH better than trawling on a monitor.
BS
Sadly I dont. Just using all the PANS-OPS info from a book I've "borrowed" from work.............
If you can lay your hands on a copy of the Jeppesen General Flight Information Supplement Booklet (the grey one), its all in there. MUCH better than trawling on a monitor.
BS
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Thanks for your reply, I do understand what you saying, and makes sense for me.
Is it correct that the pilot would be able to set his own Outer Marker Substitute or EP, as long as this is above 1000 ft AAL (and within SOP's)?
I did a small mistake in previous post, should have been D 4.0 (INN), was slight oversight by when writing the post.
The reason I ask was that I was told by the training captain to use D 4.0 (INN) as my Outer Marker Substitute or EP.
So if there is no OM, would it then be standard to use the GS check at D 4.0 (INN) on this plate, would that be similar on most other approaches where there is no OM, even if it has FAP at up to 10 D, if would be looking for a check area around D 4.0 to use for this purpose?
Is it correct that the pilot would be able to set his own Outer Marker Substitute or EP, as long as this is above 1000 ft AAL (and within SOP's)?
I did a small mistake in previous post, should have been D 4.0 (INN), was slight oversight by when writing the post.
The reason I ask was that I was told by the training captain to use D 4.0 (INN) as my Outer Marker Substitute or EP.
So if there is no OM, would it then be standard to use the GS check at D 4.0 (INN) on this plate, would that be similar on most other approaches where there is no OM, even if it has FAP at up to 10 D, if would be looking for a check area around D 4.0 to use for this purpose?
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Where is it possible to get hold of the Jeppesen General Flight Information Supplement Booklet?
I have been looking to get this, but have not had any luck. Thanks
I have been looking to get this, but have not had any luck. Thanks
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Hi TF,
Roger the 3D / 4D confusion!
OM's are being turned off fairly regularly now. Only a few places in Europe that use them routinely.
4D is regarded pretty much as industry standard these days and yes, EP is a nominated point within SOP's.
The FAP/FAF is the start of the final approach segment and that is ALL it means.
As for the book, speak to one of your nice airline employed mates to rob you one.
BS
Roger the 3D / 4D confusion!
OM's are being turned off fairly regularly now. Only a few places in Europe that use them routinely.
4D is regarded pretty much as industry standard these days and yes, EP is a nominated point within SOP's.
The FAP/FAF is the start of the final approach segment and that is ALL it means.
As for the book, speak to one of your nice airline employed mates to rob you one.
BS
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Hello bugspeed,
What's the required visual reference for a CAT I Approach?
Thanks.
Ps. The final approach point is where the initial approach altitude intersects the glide slope.
What's the required visual reference for a CAT I Approach?
Thanks.
Ps. The final approach point is where the initial approach altitude intersects the glide slope.
