Modular Halil

Supercub1

go intergrated of you have a jet job lined up at an airline, which you most probably dont.

Go modular space your training at your own pace to meet market demands. if there's no jobs in a year thats fine do your ATPL books as soon as jobs start coming then you can increase your training speed. For the love of money dont go intergrated right now.

Jammysticks

I like the idea of having family and friends chip in for a fun trip, thanks!

I fully expect not to get hired after 3-4 years. Have seen Eurocontrol estimate a return to 2019 traffic levels as late as 2029, and I'm ready for that possibility. I have wanted to fly planes since I was 5, so I don't mind waiting another few years for an airline job.

Thanks for your input

rudestuff

Jammysticks

Although you're building hours every time you fly, "hour building" in the traditional sense is generally done in order to meet the requirements (200) of the CPL. There is very little point building hours after you have the CPL, as most airlines aren't too interested in single engine piston hours, so to them a 500 hour CPL is no different to a 200 hour CPL. There are a few exceptions obviously.

Just because someone can fly a plane doesn't mean they'll be any good in a multi pilot jet. That's why airlines generally look for multi crew hours and specifically, time on type. When there aren't enough of these, or when called for by the business model, they will turn to cadet pilots. Quite often the ultimate discriminator isn't hours, but recency, meaning a 200 hour pilot who passed his/her test last month is deemed a safer bet than a 300 hour pilot who passed it 2 years ago.

Jammysticks

Thanks for this clear explanation. Am I to gather that the best approach for me, then, is to get my CPL, stay relatively current, and apply for a cadetship when one opens up? From what I understand, it is very difficult to get multi-crew hours or time-on-type without actually being employed by an airline in the first place. If I'm wrong about that, I'd love to know! From what you're saying, I may have a better chance by building multi-crew hours if that is somehow possible.

rudestuff

The best approach in the current economy is to get the following, in order:

Medical
PPL
Night rating
ATPL exams
CBIR
CPL single engine.

That will get you to within 6 weeks of the finish line (the finish line being MEIR and MCC/JOC) for minimal cost, while preserving your exam passes. Then you just wait it out.

Unless you're Bill Gates, you won't see a multi crew aircraft until you've got your first job, the name of the game is to get to that point.

Jammysticks

Thanks for this, this is exactly the info I needed

Are you saying that when you're applying to airlines, it doesn't matter whether the CPL was recent, but that the MEIR and MCC ought to have been recent?

rudestuff

More or less, the CPL test is a vfr navigation and handling exercise and it's arguably not that relevant to airline flying. The MEIR and MCC/JOC are a lot more relevant since they are all about hand flying on instruments, and flying as part of a crew.

As far as modular flying training goes, nowadays people tend to do the CPL/IR together almost like it's one module rather than two. If you do then separately, even if separated by several years - you haven't technically completed your flight training until you've finished the last module, and who says you have to mention individual dates for each course?
You can still legitimately say (on a CV): "EASA/CAA CPL/MEIR. Modular flight training completed at ABC school on date XYZ. MCC/JOC completed at ABC school on date XYZ" and more importantly, skills that actually matter (MEIR) will be recent.

Jammysticks

Brilliant, thank you!

futurepilot22

Hi all, I plan to start integrated training in early 2022, the structure and continuity appeals to me and as I have recently finished university and don't have a specific job or any commitments to hold along side a part time modular course I would rather just get stuck in and spend 18 months getting everything done and obtaining my license and take it from there. I am aware most people are recommending modular at the moment for obvious resons, but if I were to go for intergrated and graduate say late 2023 and there was still no airline jobs, what are the processes for keeping licenses valid? I would probably look to work at a simulator company or become a flight instructor until there are airline jobs, does this automatically keep licenses ticking over?
No need to tell me, wait 2 years, spend this time getting a degree (already done that), there wont be any jobs for another 5 years, integrated is a waste of money etc. Just want to know what the processes are for keeping licenses and ratings valid until I obtain my first airline job.
Many thanks in advance.

Contact Approach

Your Integrated course gives you exactly the same licence as a modular course and the requirements to keep it valid are the same:

Class 1 - renewal every year
IR - licence proficiency check every year this needs to be completed whilst the IR is still valid otherwise further training is required. 1.5 hours usually in a DA42 these days.

This is the bare minimum and It’s not cheap. This doesn’t include renewing your SEP which is extra and done every two years. This would be needed if you plan to do an FI course.

Like many have said: there’s no point in paying schools thousands more than you have to arrive at the same point. Integrated is a poor choice these days.

rudestuff

I just don't understand why someone would do an integrated course. For the same money I would go modular and walk away with a frozen ATPL for both Airplanes and Helicopters and FI for both...

Contact Approach

Integrated died a long time ago and it has been living off its past contracts for too long. The only way for it to survive and become competitive would be to drop its price, however by doing so would undermine its marketing BS. By going integrated you effectively pay double for fewer flying hours, less flexibility and more disappointment.

Stay well clear is the overwhelming advice.

futurepilot22

I don't know if I am looking at the wrong places but for modular to do everything including MCC and UPRT courses, its around £70,000 (aeros and tayside aviation are ones I am looking at). Then by the time I pay for accomodation for say 18 months it will come to roughly the same price as an integrated course that does include accomodation. So to me the price is not any different, it just comes with the advantage of slowing down your training if needed.

BaronVonBarnstormer

A very fair point, however you also need to consider the payment structure that you will be tied to with an integrated course vs the flexibility that modular training offers. I did do an integrated course and found myself in a position where I was stumping up huge sums of cash despite having to put up with delays in training etc etc. . If I was modular then I could pay for my training phase, and if there was issues then I could take my business elsewhere. Integrated schools have you bent over a barrel until you have your license. However when integrated courses work, they work well and they do suit a lot of people to immerse oneself in the huge amount of study that is required.

Now you'll probably get a torrent of "advice" on here telling you to start/not start training right now. Truthfully there will never be a perfect time to start, and only you and your family know the level of risk you are willing to take on. BUT for heaven's sake protect yourself as much as possible financially, and have a career to fall back on should it not work out.

Alex Whittingham

Also you'll find that the prices of the two 'structured modular' courses you quoted are on the high side - once again ATOs squeezing prices up where they think they can get away with it. Modular can often be completed for £20K less than that, sometimes even lower.

rudestuff

The trick to going modular and saving money is to study while you're working. Ideally you would make use of your holiday allowance and get a PPL in 4 weeks, or failing that, two 2 week blocks. That's not as hard as you think if you do it somewhere sunny, and turn up with all the exams passed and nothing to do but fly. You could even take 10 hours over weekends to learn the basics, then do an accelerated course full time.

Once you've got your PPL and night rating, start the ATPL exams. Take your time and study no more than 4 subjects at a time, take the exams then move on. 4/4/3/3 still gives you plenty of options for resits. While you're doing that, get a cheap preferably non-equity share in a 150 or PA38 - something that you can fly for less than £100 an hour. Plan to fly around 50 hours making sure you use the time wisely - learning the area for your CPL and getting plenty of cross country time. You should be half way towards CPL, and you've spent less than £18,000

Once you've passed your final ATPL exam the clock is ticking. You've got 36 months to finish up. Start with a CBIR which should cost around £6-8000. An IRR/IMC costs £2500-3000, so essentially to get an IR via the CBIR route you'll need do that twice with an extra 10-20 hours solo practice. So now you've got a PPL/Night/SEIR 150 hours and you've spent £26,000

With 50 hours left to go, I would assess the industry and see if it's worth getting a multi rating yet. Assuming it's not, I would just hour build for another 35 hours (£3500) and do a 15 hour CPL course (£3500) Total spend? £35,000 once you've paid CAA fees. Now you can get an FI rating if you want to teach (£8000) or for the same money you can get your MEP and MEIR *when the time comes.

Of course, if you really want to become a pilot cheaply, have a read of part 61.129 then get yourself a training visa for the US. You can do all of the above for about £20k and come home with over 1000 hours.

j34allen

Hi all,

I'm putting together a plan to begin the journey to gain my frozen ATPL and having rad many comments I believe a structured modular route would be more beneficial than going integrated, not solely from a financial perspective but also from a licensing and speed perspective as i've heard horror stories of huge delays waiting to complete flying hours, and issues with licensing being held up/exams lost etc.

My question is, as a British citizen (sadly) and since Brexit would anyone be able to recommend/ suggest a smart route for gaining my PPL, IR/NR and hour building abroad, and any issues that I might encounter with licensing conversions back to UK. I'm wanting to gain an EASA license, not CAA, but I know some licensing states can be tricky.

I'm considering either USA, Spain or Greece due to predictable weather and speed gaining flying hours. I'd also look to complete my ATPL theory at a similar time, then I have a school in mind to complete the final licenses (CPL, APS-MCC etc) as a package deal.

Lots of schools i've spoken with seem to offer modular routes but as they also offer integrated whenever I speak with them they try and put me off straight away and lead me on to the modular route. I'm worried if I persist with them they'll purposefully give me second hand training out of spite. Maybe just being a bit sceptical?

Thanks in advance - hugely appreciate any advice you can give me.

rudestuff

Do you even know why you want an EASA licence?

Wanting both I can understand, but wanting EASA only doesn't make much sense, unless you have dual nationality?

If you want to waste a lot of money, go integrated.

If you want to work at your own pace and hold down a job, go modular

If you want to get the most hours and spend the least money - go to the US for 2 years.

j34allen

Thanks Rudestuff, appreciate the response.

So I might be slightly naive but going by the advice i'v been given my UK as well as EU based ATO's I was under the impression an EASA license would be superior and is accepted more widely than the CAA since Brexit? I didn't think a visa would be the most important thing to consider as I assume if a job offer is made by a foreign based company then you can apply for a working visa in that country and have sponsorship? I.e. if I was to apply for work with Ryanair, and I was offered a job flying say based in Palma, the visa would be a secondary consideration as i'm not necessarily moving to a location before applying for a positiion? If i've misunderstood this then clearly I need to read up further on my options.

Most of the EU based ATO's I speak with train a mix of cadets with may from the UK and still following an EASA license route purely as training is cheaper, faster and accessible.

I'd be keen to learn more about what my options are and what i've perhaps misinterpreted if that's the case?

rudestuff

The right to live and work is equally as important at a professional licence, both are a basic requirement. In the short term there will be little to no chance of a UK pilot being sponsored for a work visa in Europe: there a simple too many unemployed European pilots.

As for career advice, you'll get plenty on here. But it really would help to know as much about you as possible, otherwise a lot of assumptions have to be made.
If you're reasonably smart, just inherited £50k and can go anywhere in the world at the drop of a hat - great.
If you're married with kids and can't go more than 20 miles from Stockport once a week and you've got no money, well that's a different kettle of fish.
Put simply, if you're prepared to put 'the dream' ahead of all else, smoking/drinking/relationships - then becoming a pilot is quite straightforward.