MCC Courses
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MCC advice
I second the post above.
The MCC course is all about converting your single pilot flying capabilities (heavily practiced and demonstrated during the CPL and IR) into multi pilot capabilities.
By (to use the Americanism) ‘shooting approaches’, you really don’t achieve the point of the MCC course. I work for a company that delivers MCC training and we base our entire course around the multi-crew environment. Working as a team in airline conditions, using SOPs, interacting with all those involved in a flight from ground staff, to cabin crew whilst dealing with real life routes, and situations on route.
During MCC training the auto-pilot is a fantastic tool; it allows time for crew interaction, planning, PF and PNF communications, systems monitoring and makes the whole experience actually ‘more real’. However what we tend to do, during some of the later simulator sessions is include auto-pilot failures and allow the students to fly the occasional precision and non-precision approach. The first simulator session actually includes general handing too, in order to aid familiarization with the aircraft.
The JOC/JOT is really where full jet handling and hand-flying really takes president over multi-crew operations; it’s not really primary during the MCC.
Although I work for a MCC provider in Cranfield and we pride ourselves on a great course. I have experience of Oxford’s simulator training and from my experience, although vastly more expensive than most, the quality of teaching is more than adequate with some fantastic instructors.
As long as the course is accredited, you’re being delivered a great ‘MCC’ course and the reputation is good – right now I’d base my choice on price!!!
The MCC course is all about converting your single pilot flying capabilities (heavily practiced and demonstrated during the CPL and IR) into multi pilot capabilities.
By (to use the Americanism) ‘shooting approaches’, you really don’t achieve the point of the MCC course. I work for a company that delivers MCC training and we base our entire course around the multi-crew environment. Working as a team in airline conditions, using SOPs, interacting with all those involved in a flight from ground staff, to cabin crew whilst dealing with real life routes, and situations on route.
During MCC training the auto-pilot is a fantastic tool; it allows time for crew interaction, planning, PF and PNF communications, systems monitoring and makes the whole experience actually ‘more real’. However what we tend to do, during some of the later simulator sessions is include auto-pilot failures and allow the students to fly the occasional precision and non-precision approach. The first simulator session actually includes general handing too, in order to aid familiarization with the aircraft.
The JOC/JOT is really where full jet handling and hand-flying really takes president over multi-crew operations; it’s not really primary during the MCC.
Although I work for a MCC provider in Cranfield and we pride ourselves on a great course. I have experience of Oxford’s simulator training and from my experience, although vastly more expensive than most, the quality of teaching is more than adequate with some fantastic instructors.
As long as the course is accredited, you’re being delivered a great ‘MCC’ course and the reputation is good – right now I’d base my choice on price!!!
Join Date: Jul 2006
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EI-CON, Quote:
and its all hands on flying.
And that helps with Multi Crew Co-operation then???????
and its all hands on flying.
And that helps with Multi Crew Co-operation then???????
Both prepare you very well for an assessment, especially if you were to do one in a 737 with the basic 6 instrument set-up - like the majority of newbies find themselves doing right now.
Worked for me anyway.
for Simtech.
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ford cortina EI-CON,
Quote:
and its all hands on flying.
And that helps with Multi Crew Co-operation then???????
That's pretty daft. Sticking in the A/P at 1000' aal and disengaging it at 1000'aal or less may work wonders for your MC skills during your MCC. Big picture, it achieves little as come any sim assessment, your arse will be so far removed from your elbow that the brown side may as well be facing upwards on the AI! Any assessor will be interested in a combined display of handling and crm apptitude. Reserve the finer points of automation for the TR and line flying. When it actually matters!
Quote:
and its all hands on flying.
And that helps with Multi Crew Co-operation then???????
That's pretty daft. Sticking in the A/P at 1000' aal and disengaging it at 1000'aal or less may work wonders for your MC skills during your MCC. Big picture, it achieves little as come any sim assessment, your arse will be so far removed from your elbow that the brown side may as well be facing upwards on the AI! Any assessor will be interested in a combined display of handling and crm apptitude. Reserve the finer points of automation for the TR and line flying. When it actually matters!
Join Date: Dec 2009
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If you walk into a sim assessment and you dont have a good scan it will be game over. Full stop. End of. You can be the nicest guy or girl in the world, it will matter not.
A basic good scan is essential. When those flight directors are switched off and you have no experience in flying a jet hands on, it is the very thing that will get you through. No where to hide if that basic skill is not there.
To sum up I think its a good thing to incorporate in as much hand flying in an MCC course as possible, without neglecting the CRM element to an unacceptable level in doing so.
A basic good scan is essential. When those flight directors are switched off and you have no experience in flying a jet hands on, it is the very thing that will get you through. No where to hide if that basic skill is not there.
To sum up I think its a good thing to incorporate in as much hand flying in an MCC course as possible, without neglecting the CRM element to an unacceptable level in doing so.
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People, I have already commented on another thread in detail so I will not go into details here.
A Multi Crew Cooperation course, is not about flying a aircraft. It is about working as a team.
I am a line pilot on the 737 and have been there. I have no argument with any of the training organisations mentioned.
To believe that it is all about hand flying without flight directors on is missing the point.
You get 20 hours in the sim, 10 each as PF. then you wait for months for that first interview. You will have forgotten everything about flying a jet. You would be better off having a sim a few days before. If I have a week or two off, it takes me a short time to get into the swing of things and I do this for a living. You may have 10 hours, with failures etc thrown in, so not much real stick and rudder.
However I am talking to a brick wall....
So I am off to work, Italy today. Good luck everyone and I hope to hear you in the sky
FC
A Multi Crew Cooperation course, is not about flying a aircraft. It is about working as a team.
I am a line pilot on the 737 and have been there. I have no argument with any of the training organisations mentioned.
To believe that it is all about hand flying without flight directors on is missing the point.
You get 20 hours in the sim, 10 each as PF. then you wait for months for that first interview. You will have forgotten everything about flying a jet. You would be better off having a sim a few days before. If I have a week or two off, it takes me a short time to get into the swing of things and I do this for a living. You may have 10 hours, with failures etc thrown in, so not much real stick and rudder.
However I am talking to a brick wall....
So I am off to work, Italy today. Good luck everyone and I hope to hear you in the sky
FC
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You should have a very good scan, just after your IR, as long as you do it on steam gauges....
If you wish to improve your scan cheaply, get flight sim and a 737 classic add on, or similar. I found FS and a add on very helpful in my initial Type Rating, helping me to learn start up and the overhead procedures.
If you wish to improve your scan cheaply, get flight sim and a 737 classic add on, or similar. I found FS and a add on very helpful in my initial Type Rating, helping me to learn start up and the overhead procedures.
Sticking in the A/P at 1000' aal and disengaging it at 1000'aal or less may work wonders for your MC skills during your MCC. Big picture, it achieves little as come any sim assessment
I'm with Ford Cortina on this. There is no point in spending vast sums of money on the MCC simply in order to get into a jet FFS.
Any handling skills you learn on the MCC are highly perishable. In 3 months you will have lost them, so it's common-sense to delay spending your hard-earned or borrowed money until you have actually secured an interview! At that point it IS worth spending money on a Sim Assessment Preparation session on the Type on which you will be assessed.
The MCC is a good idea in principle but sadly FTOs have twisted the emphasis of the course in order to make it more marketable to newly licensed, eager and impressionable pilots. Yes, it's more exciting to go from the Seneca you flew on the IR into a 737NG but it's an unnecessary luxury. The course is supposed to be about CRM, not getting a taste for flying glass cockpit jets.
I speak with the benefit of hindsight, having completed an expensive MCC, passed a sim assessment with a major Airline, and passed a 737NG TR in the course of the last 9 months. Given my time again, I would do the MCC at an FTO with a good reputation on a FNPTII or old jet type. I can honestly say that the MCC had NO effect on my ability to get the job.
Just my 2 cents worth.
Any handling skills you learn on the MCC are highly perishable. In 3 months you will have lost them, so it's common-sense to delay spending your hard-earned or borrowed money until you have actually secured an interview! At that point it IS worth spending money on a Sim Assessment Preparation session on the Type on which you will be assessed.
The MCC is a good idea in principle but sadly FTOs have twisted the emphasis of the course in order to make it more marketable to newly licensed, eager and impressionable pilots. Yes, it's more exciting to go from the Seneca you flew on the IR into a 737NG but it's an unnecessary luxury. The course is supposed to be about CRM, not getting a taste for flying glass cockpit jets.
I speak with the benefit of hindsight, having completed an expensive MCC, passed a sim assessment with a major Airline, and passed a 737NG TR in the course of the last 9 months. Given my time again, I would do the MCC at an FTO with a good reputation on a FNPTII or old jet type. I can honestly say that the MCC had NO effect on my ability to get the job.
Just my 2 cents worth.
Join Date: Dec 2007
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I think what I said about hand flying has been taken up slightly wrong. I agree that an MCC is not a sim check prep and I agree that the main purpose of an MCC should be just that teaching you how to work as a crew.
My point about Simtech is that aswell as teaching you good MCC and how to work as part of a crew another advantage to their course is that its all manuel flying. Simtechs primary aim is to teach you good MCC and they do this very well. A good example was during my course one of my class was getting very into detail on the overhead and the instructor told him his not there to teach him about the overhead his there to teach him MCC.
My point is with Simtech aswell as getting a good MCC you also get the advantage of manuel flying which in turn is an advantage in a sim check. Dont forget your crew co-operation skills are also examined in a sim check. You can go to the sim check and fly the thing like a pro but if you cant interact with the guy or gal beside you or leave him/her out to dry you wont get the job.
I think the reason why so many of Simtechs MCC students are so successful in sim checks is because they have the best of both worlds - a good MCC with lots of hands on flying.
My point about Simtech is that aswell as teaching you good MCC and how to work as part of a crew another advantage to their course is that its all manuel flying. Simtechs primary aim is to teach you good MCC and they do this very well. A good example was during my course one of my class was getting very into detail on the overhead and the instructor told him his not there to teach him about the overhead his there to teach him MCC.
My point is with Simtech aswell as getting a good MCC you also get the advantage of manuel flying which in turn is an advantage in a sim check. Dont forget your crew co-operation skills are also examined in a sim check. You can go to the sim check and fly the thing like a pro but if you cant interact with the guy or gal beside you or leave him/her out to dry you wont get the job.
I think the reason why so many of Simtechs MCC students are so successful in sim checks is because they have the best of both worlds - a good MCC with lots of hands on flying.
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Its nice if its(a little bit of hands on flying) incorported into the MCC as I said without neglecting the CRM aspect if you have an interview shortly after your MCC. Worked out for me. No regrets. Im glad they didn't follow the "rules" and used a little bit of common sense knowing that I was going to have to hand fly it in the Dragons Den shortly after the course. End of. I too have made my point.
Join Date: Dec 2005
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Well i'll put in a shout for the course at Wolverhampton Flight Centre - thoroughly enjoyed it, pleasant people, very favourable cost, and first class b+b accommodation nearby. A nice pint too at the local pub!
As for the all singing/dancing jet sim that bucks up and down versus a basic FNPT2 - personally I dont think most airlines give two hoots as to what you did the MCC on. Certainly mine didnt. I dont think they even asked, they just made sure I had a certificate...just a tick in the box for them!
As for the all singing/dancing jet sim that bucks up and down versus a basic FNPT2 - personally I dont think most airlines give two hoots as to what you did the MCC on. Certainly mine didnt. I dont think they even asked, they just made sure I had a certificate...just a tick in the box for them!
Join Date: Aug 2005
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My MCC at European was a waste of time. Partner spoke virtually no english. He didn't learn any of the call out / checks. It was single pilot IFR when I was blasting through 800' in the 737-200. No DME calls, no approaching waypoint reminders. 80 knots? What's that??? Positive rate???? Who is he???He even managed to "crash" the aircraft several times on takeoff by applying so much rudder, left, right, left, right, I actually hurt myself against the shoulder harness, a la American A300 in New York. YES, I got loads of hands-on time, single engine ILS, etc. which was fabulous, but as far as the actual "MCC" aspect, utter waste of time. Just ticking another both for the "Campaign Against Aviation."
Join Date: Oct 2004
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As for the "hands on flying" - the way I do it is that the default position is that we use the autopilot as much as possible in order to allow people to concentrate upon the non-technical skills, which is what the MCC is all about after all. That said, if someone wants to hand fly then I'm happy to let them do that as long as it does NOT interfere with the conduct of the MCC training. If I feel that it is harming the training then I will make them use the autopilot.
In practice, I've found that most people are keen to use the AP if they can because they've rarely had a chance to do so and it's useful experience for them.
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Your very welcome. The B+B at the Laurels was first class too. I still remember Josie the landlady appearing halfway through a sim session to drop of our packed lunch....bless her, one of life's genuinely nice people.