money money money
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: tahiti
Posts: 171
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I have to agree that the modular route in this current climate offers far less risk unless ofcourse you sponged all the money off your parents!
If I had an airline, guys like this would be my last choice.
Integrated? ok, but only if cheaper than modular.
Why should integrated be priced higher anyway when it gives you less hours, less flexibility, less instruction?
It's the JAA's fault.
There's no real need for differenciated training methods in this industry, just the same way it's of no use to have FAA part 61 and part 141 if part 141 is priced higher than 61 while being introduced in an aim to reduce cost by reducing required hours through a more stringent training process!!
Integrated was introduced in an aim to reduce the cost of training compared to modular just in the same way. Unfortunately it has not been used as such but I wonder whether EASA that is replacing the JAA will just sit aorund and do nothing about it.
Thumbs up UAV689, good luck! keep working hard and you'll get there!
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Newcastle
Age: 40
Posts: 260
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
UAV - Im exactly the same. I was 100% self sponsored - not a penny has been leant to me from family, or left to me.
I worked my ass off through Uni and for a few years since for the money, and I feel a sense of achievement that most spongers gambling with their parents deeds will ever feel.
I love the 17/18 year olds who come on here proclaiming that Integrated is THE only way to be a pilot. Modular students are scum, and airlines never hire them. When they haven't worked a day in their life! Make me chuckle sometimes.
I wonder if they direct their parents to prune? Or just show them the glossy brochures, fancy websites and let them take along to 'open days'. Honestly, I think some FTO sales people are just dodgey salesmen (the type who would sell their own Grandmother for a quick buck) who could sell coals to Newcastle.
Reality check, please.
I worked my ass off through Uni and for a few years since for the money, and I feel a sense of achievement that most spongers gambling with their parents deeds will ever feel.
I love the 17/18 year olds who come on here proclaiming that Integrated is THE only way to be a pilot. Modular students are scum, and airlines never hire them. When they haven't worked a day in their life! Make me chuckle sometimes.
I wonder if they direct their parents to prune? Or just show them the glossy brochures, fancy websites and let them take along to 'open days'. Honestly, I think some FTO sales people are just dodgey salesmen (the type who would sell their own Grandmother for a quick buck) who could sell coals to Newcastle.
Reality check, please.
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Kent
Age: 47
Posts: 2
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
What we need is a few more airlines who recognise the commitment, focus and time/money management skills shown by modular students who get their fATPL whilst holding down jobs supporting families etc over the integrated guys who have their hands held through every stage by the FTO.
I only recently found out that the Oxford students do their PPL's & Hour building in Florida. After paying all that money!!!
I only recently found out that the Oxford students do their PPL's & Hour building in Florida. After paying all that money!!!
Join Date: May 2008
Location: EASTBOURNE
Age: 52
Posts: 1
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
SCD,
This current climate that the industry is in.... Is it because of fuel prices or a general feel?
I recently visited cabair who were pleased to state that the current employment opportunities are improving all the time and job prospects are rosy....
A marketing ploy I'm sure but should people be put off by the current climate? Is there evidence of a slowdown?
This current climate that the industry is in.... Is it because of fuel prices or a general feel?
I recently visited cabair who were pleased to state that the current employment opportunities are improving all the time and job prospects are rosy....
A marketing ploy I'm sure but should people be put off by the current climate? Is there evidence of a slowdown?
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: In Exile...
Posts: 332
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
As someone cited earlier on - yes, the market is rosy. If you don't live in Europe or America. The middle east is booming...
Euromanx and Silverjet both gone bust, amoungst other US carriers. Take over talks are rife. Petrol prices are going through the roof and there's no signs of a turn around. What more evidence do you need?
Integrated, modular, whatever. Now is *not* the time to be starting professional flight training.
Euromanx and Silverjet both gone bust, amoungst other US carriers. Take over talks are rife. Petrol prices are going through the roof and there's no signs of a turn around. What more evidence do you need?
Integrated, modular, whatever. Now is *not* the time to be starting professional flight training.
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: tahiti
Posts: 171
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Euromanx and Silverjet both gone bust, amoungst other US carriers.
As someone cited earlier on - yes, the market is rosy. If you don't live in Europe or America. The middle east is booming...
Middle East carriers are hiring tons of experienced European pilots
= these pilots need to be replaced
= new pilot job vacancies at European airlines
Though not very relevant and decisive, oil dropped 5% since last week and was pretty constant this week. This might discourage many oil speculators to trade for the quick buck ... and ultimately might see the oil tumble.
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: aaa
Posts: 269
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
PJUUAA
No I dont think its just the high fuel prices thats causing the current downturn, I thinks it more to do with people having less money to spend nowadays with higher mortgages, bills and that which yes is related to oil prices.
So flights will be getting more expensive while people will have less disposable income.
Although surprisingly people are still booking their holidays at the moment as it seems they are not willing to give up their week in the sun every year!
I think the low cost carriers might feel a bit of a pinch in the winter as less people are going to fly somewhere just because it was only £5 return etc.
The only place I can see the industry going places at the moment is in the Middle east while they are raking it in. But I think all of these jobs will be filled by high time guys as they get made redundant or have T&C's cut in europe and the US.
But hey Im just a line pilot and thats just my opinion and I dont pretend to be an expert otherwise Id demand a much higher wage
No I dont think its just the high fuel prices thats causing the current downturn, I thinks it more to do with people having less money to spend nowadays with higher mortgages, bills and that which yes is related to oil prices.
So flights will be getting more expensive while people will have less disposable income.
Although surprisingly people are still booking their holidays at the moment as it seems they are not willing to give up their week in the sun every year!
I think the low cost carriers might feel a bit of a pinch in the winter as less people are going to fly somewhere just because it was only £5 return etc.
The only place I can see the industry going places at the moment is in the Middle east while they are raking it in. But I think all of these jobs will be filled by high time guys as they get made redundant or have T&C's cut in europe and the US.
But hey Im just a line pilot and thats just my opinion and I dont pretend to be an expert otherwise Id demand a much higher wage
Hovering AND talking
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Propping up bars in the Lands of D H Lawrence and Bishop Bonner
Age: 59
Posts: 5,705
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Some of us are old enough to remember when mortgage rates went up to over 15% in the late eighties!!! That's probably the best time and economy to compare the climate with!
Cheers
Whirls
Cheers
Whirls
15% on a 3.5 times multiple of Husbands real basic salary with 10% deposit was painful. But not as painful as 5.0 times multiple of Joint overstated salary on a 125% Northern Rock SVR mortgage at 7.4%....
This will be an early 1990's style house price crash, recession and airline bankruptcy era.
No doubt about it.
WWW
This will be an early 1990's style house price crash, recession and airline bankruptcy era.
No doubt about it.
WWW
Hovering AND talking
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Propping up bars in the Lands of D H Lawrence and Bishop Bonner
Age: 59
Posts: 5,705
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
WWW, you're absolutely right!!
That was MY situation and, because I remember it, I can't believe that people have ever saddled themselves with THIS situation - but they did and do!
But, a lot of guys starting out now won't be aware of that recession and the real impact it made.
Cheers
Whirls
15% on a 3.5 times multiple of Husbands real basic salary with 10% deposit....
as 5.0 times multiple of Joint overstated salary on a 125% Northern Rock SVR mortgage at 7.4%....
Cheers
Whirls
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Hoylake
Age: 50
Posts: 414
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
This will be an early 1990's style house price crash, recession and airline bankruptcy era.
Plenty of aircraft on order for new start ups VLJs and bigger, also new UK cargo operations.
Its confusing all this doom and gloom whilst there are new companys starting as we speak!
Who are all these new start up companies? Maybe they have been in planning stages for years, have just started up and now realise they aren't going to be able to survive with the present financial mess in the west.
Anyone who thinks there is no credit crunch or financial mess right now and for the short foreseeable future at least, is either ignorant of facts or just plain dumb. If you're that dumb should you be starting to spend a lot of money right now?
I can't wait for about 12 months time, when all these 'youngsters' , and I use the term loosely, will return here and post how successful they have been in passing all of the exams, tests/ interviews etc and getting that first RHS job. Good luck to them I say but the reality is, if you have a couple of parents prepared to give their 18yr old son a huge chunk of spare cash to do the course, then great! If not it's likely it'll probably end in tears.
What many of us, Whirls, WWW and other slightly 'older' ppruners, on here remember, is how things went pear shaped in the eighties/early nineties.
Those PROFESSIONAL PILOTS on this Rumour Network have only put across their views and recommendations from being in the industry and seeing how it works in cycles. Now is not really a good time to be spending huge amounts of cash in the hope that jobs will be plentiful. You can only tell people so many times I guess!
Modular or Integrated doesnt matter when there are few jobs around. The reason being is those who are made redundant are more employable with their experience over those fresh out of 'school'.
Look at the offshore heli industry and the flow of fixed wing pilots in and out of it when times are good and bad.
Overall experience might just keep you in beer tokens.
No experience very probably won't.
ps. I have no idea what it's like in the East. This is entirely how I see things from my point of view in the UK/Europe right now.
Anyone who thinks there is no credit crunch or financial mess right now and for the short foreseeable future at least, is either ignorant of facts or just plain dumb. If you're that dumb should you be starting to spend a lot of money right now?
I can't wait for about 12 months time, when all these 'youngsters' , and I use the term loosely, will return here and post how successful they have been in passing all of the exams, tests/ interviews etc and getting that first RHS job. Good luck to them I say but the reality is, if you have a couple of parents prepared to give their 18yr old son a huge chunk of spare cash to do the course, then great! If not it's likely it'll probably end in tears.
What many of us, Whirls, WWW and other slightly 'older' ppruners, on here remember, is how things went pear shaped in the eighties/early nineties.
Those PROFESSIONAL PILOTS on this Rumour Network have only put across their views and recommendations from being in the industry and seeing how it works in cycles. Now is not really a good time to be spending huge amounts of cash in the hope that jobs will be plentiful. You can only tell people so many times I guess!
Modular or Integrated doesnt matter when there are few jobs around. The reason being is those who are made redundant are more employable with their experience over those fresh out of 'school'.
Look at the offshore heli industry and the flow of fixed wing pilots in and out of it when times are good and bad.
Overall experience might just keep you in beer tokens.
No experience very probably won't.ps. I have no idea what it's like in the East. This is entirely how I see things from my point of view in the UK/Europe right now.
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Hoylake
Age: 50
Posts: 414
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
http://www.flyblink.com
http://www.janesaviation.co.uk/
http://www.flyjetbird.com/
http://www.skyjet.com/Skyjet/SkyjetCard.aspx
12-16 Lears boumd for the UK but have not heard anymore recently on this one.
http://www.flylea.com/other/mustang.htm
Not a new company but still has orders for more a/c
And there are many others ordering VLJs and bigger due to expansion within the market.
You are correct businesses dont start overnight and Im sure they have been in the planning stage for a while, credit crunch for some maybe, but others will be raking it in from hedge funds and other sources. Especially the types who fly in the luxury of private a/c
http://www.janesaviation.co.uk/
http://www.flyjetbird.com/
http://www.skyjet.com/Skyjet/SkyjetCard.aspx
12-16 Lears boumd for the UK but have not heard anymore recently on this one.
http://www.flylea.com/other/mustang.htm
Not a new company but still has orders for more a/c
And there are many others ordering VLJs and bigger due to expansion within the market.
You are correct businesses dont start overnight and Im sure they have been in the planning stage for a while, credit crunch for some maybe, but others will be raking it in from hedge funds and other sources. Especially the types who fly in the luxury of private a/c
WOW!!! Look at them all. All of those soon-to-be so successful companies, in the current climate. All to employ the hundreds of wannabes out there. I apologise. I didn't realise all was so rosy. I should get out more and stop watching CNN/BBC/FOX/SKY etc.
Just off to cancel my copy of the Financial Times. I've been reading the drivel and lies that they pedal for too long now. How can I have been conned so easily?
ps, that blink airline sounds fantastic. I might even go convert my Rotary licence for an (A) now and see if I can get a job. Think they'll accept me with couple thousand hours, but only 150 fixed wing?
Just off to cancel my copy of the Financial Times. I've been reading the drivel and lies that they pedal for too long now. How can I have been conned so easily?
ps, that blink airline sounds fantastic. I might even go convert my Rotary licence for an (A) now and see if I can get a job. Think they'll accept me with couple thousand hours, but only 150 fixed wing?
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Hoylake
Age: 50
Posts: 414
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
No need to be sarcastic now, im just trying to keep things positive, my nature is glass half full.
Its just the ones I know of, not a be all and end all list, and an example of its not all doom and gloom
Maybe you should, we all no what the press are like for over doing things and scare tactics, I am not disagreeing with you, Whirls or WWW, just pointing out there is positives to.
Why did you have to respond in such a tone, some people honestly
Its just the ones I know of, not a be all and end all list, and an example of its not all doom and gloom
I should get out more and stop watching CNN/BBC/FOX/SKY etc.
Why did you have to respond in such a tone, some people honestly
Last edited by Nearly There; 31st May 2008 at 14:33.
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: tahiti
Posts: 171
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Housing crash.... alright, I agree that we're seeing some strong evidence in housing markets in the UK and USA and to some smaller extent, in Europe. There's no need to bring evidence for every day for the past 60 days and we have understood what your point is 
But does anyone pointing that out here really know why there's one at all instead of only talking about the consequences?
And knowing the cause, do they know what can bring change to that situation and when that change is likely to happen?
The US is in recession, the UK is in recession and the world is going down like the Titanic went down in the Caribbean Sea...
The US registered a growth in Q1 and so did the UK.
If you're flying for an airline, instead of giving real estate advise, what about giving some load factors? Have you seen any decrease? Are the summer destinations flying at anywhere less than 70% LF?
It is still unannounced but Ezy will open a new base in Brussels in April 2009 when the new LCC terminal is completed. I expect them to base at least 6 aircraft in a first phase, increasing to 10 aircraft within 2 years. Ryanair is basing another 7 aircraft in CRL over the next 4 years.
In the small country of Belgium alone, that will create about 200 new pilot jobs over the next 4 years.
Oil prices?
As long as Ryanair can sell tickets for 10£, I'm not worried. Airlines don't make money if they don't fly.
But does anyone pointing that out here really know why there's one at all instead of only talking about the consequences?
And knowing the cause, do they know what can bring change to that situation and when that change is likely to happen?
The US is in recession, the UK is in recession and the world is going down like the Titanic went down in the Caribbean Sea...
The US registered a growth in Q1 and so did the UK.
If you're flying for an airline, instead of giving real estate advise, what about giving some load factors? Have you seen any decrease? Are the summer destinations flying at anywhere less than 70% LF?
It is still unannounced but Ezy will open a new base in Brussels in April 2009 when the new LCC terminal is completed. I expect them to base at least 6 aircraft in a first phase, increasing to 10 aircraft within 2 years. Ryanair is basing another 7 aircraft in CRL over the next 4 years.
In the small country of Belgium alone, that will create about 200 new pilot jobs over the next 4 years.
Oil prices?
As long as Ryanair can sell tickets for 10£, I'm not worried. Airlines don't make money if they don't fly.
Nearly There, I meant no offense by my post above. I tend to post a certain way on pprune but people who know me will vouch for the fact i'm more of a p*ss taker than most sometimes
. I have reigned in the attitude, believe me. Just ask Heliport! 
Read my posts on the other parts of this forum and you'll see i'm not as bad as I seem, all of the time and have actually gone out of my way to help people starting out.
I was completely self funded for all of my training. I started when there weren't many jobs about for helicopter pilots. I did it because I could and it's what I wanted to do and to hell with the naysayers even if a job was never going to materialise! I put my point of view across now because I spent £110k to get where I am now and it's not very far up the ladder, believe me. I was lucky that my other job was always in the background if I needed to go back. I could earn more doing that but it was lifestyle I was after. If I knew then what I know now, I wouldn't have started. I'd have waited, or at least I would have started a ppl, then some slow hour building, reading the books before actually studying for the exams. Give myself as much of a chance as possible in a very competetive market.
I was lucky in as much as my wife (must be nuts) supported what I was doing, knowing if I hadn't tried, it'd always be a 'I wonder what if...' question unanswered.
I know it shouldn't really all be doom and gloom but if we all posted the same thing, then we'd get no discussion.
If there are airlines starting up then I hope they do succeed. I just can't see it for a while.
ps, as a betting man, I dont think the 3rd runway at Heathrow will be approved either but what do I know?
. I have reigned in the attitude, believe me. Just ask Heliport! Read my posts on the other parts of this forum and you'll see i'm not as bad as I seem, all of the time and have actually gone out of my way to help people starting out.
I was completely self funded for all of my training. I started when there weren't many jobs about for helicopter pilots. I did it because I could and it's what I wanted to do and to hell with the naysayers even if a job was never going to materialise! I put my point of view across now because I spent £110k to get where I am now and it's not very far up the ladder, believe me. I was lucky that my other job was always in the background if I needed to go back. I could earn more doing that but it was lifestyle I was after. If I knew then what I know now, I wouldn't have started. I'd have waited, or at least I would have started a ppl, then some slow hour building, reading the books before actually studying for the exams. Give myself as much of a chance as possible in a very competetive market.
I was lucky in as much as my wife (must be nuts) supported what I was doing, knowing if I hadn't tried, it'd always be a 'I wonder what if...' question unanswered.
I know it shouldn't really all be doom and gloom but if we all posted the same thing, then we'd get no discussion.
If there are airlines starting up then I hope they do succeed. I just can't see it for a while.
ps, as a betting man, I dont think the 3rd runway at Heathrow will be approved either but what do I know?
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Hoylake
Age: 50
Posts: 414
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Helimutt, thanks for that.
I like you wouldnt listen to the naysayers either, fortunately I had the funds to for my flight training, now Im glad I have done it, no debt (apart from the FIC) and eventually an airline job will come, maybe tomorrow maybe 2 years, who knows?
The mrs has been fully behind it (something to do with the uniform I think), and I to couldnt have lived with the nagging question of what if? especially if I where to be stuck in a job I hated, which would have been any trade or industry as all I have wanted to do is fly for a living.
Cheers
NT
ps wanted to do rotary to after spending a few years stuck in the arse end of chinooks and pumas just couldnt afford it. bloody expensive, and if I have to be tech somewhere then a beach with the hosties or an oil rig?
I like you wouldnt listen to the naysayers either, fortunately I had the funds to for my flight training, now Im glad I have done it, no debt (apart from the FIC) and eventually an airline job will come, maybe tomorrow maybe 2 years, who knows?
The mrs has been fully behind it (something to do with the uniform I think
), and I to couldnt have lived with the nagging question of what if? especially if I where to be stuck in a job I hated, which would have been any trade or industry as all I have wanted to do is fly for a living.Cheers
NT
ps wanted to do rotary to after spending a few years stuck in the arse end of chinooks and pumas
just couldnt afford it. bloody expensive, and if I have to be tech somewhere then a beach with the hosties or an oil rig?
Spending time with hosties or hairy arsed riggers? Let me think.
Put1982, your age is showing i'm afraid.
Let me post the way you do:-
1/ you 'are' a youngster like it or not, and probably have very little knowledge of this whole industry. Come back and start your sarcasm after you've been in it 15 years. It's not likely you'll be anywhere near qualified before there may be changes in the industry anyway, never mind in the pointy end of a jet.
2/ clearly implying absolutely F8ck all. Unless you can't read. Where in that statement do I 'imply' that? Integrated or Modular really doesnt matter. If you get the qualifications, you can start to chase the jobs which don't exist right now.
3/ Some people have rich enough parents who will pay for their kids to train. Lucky them. I wouldn't pay for my son to train if he wanted to in the future. He could get a job and work for it. Prove that he is worthy. I make an educated guess here that your parents are paying for your training. ?
Mr 1992, please re-read my post carefully. It is only advice and a point of view and only that. My advice is stop drinking the cider down the park with your hoodie mates and get a job and save up for your training. That's if you've passed your exams and finished school already.
Ya cheeky whipper snapper!
Let me post the way you do:-
1/ you 'are' a youngster like it or not, and probably have very little knowledge of this whole industry. Come back and start your sarcasm after you've been in it 15 years. It's not likely you'll be anywhere near qualified before there may be changes in the industry anyway, never mind in the pointy end of a jet.
2/ clearly implying absolutely F8ck all. Unless you can't read. Where in that statement do I 'imply' that? Integrated or Modular really doesnt matter. If you get the qualifications, you can start to chase the jobs which don't exist right now.
3/ Some people have rich enough parents who will pay for their kids to train. Lucky them. I wouldn't pay for my son to train if he wanted to in the future. He could get a job and work for it. Prove that he is worthy. I make an educated guess here that your parents are paying for your training. ?
Mr 1992, please re-read my post carefully. It is only advice and a point of view and only that. My advice is stop drinking the cider down the park with your hoodie mates and get a job and save up for your training. That's if you've passed your exams and finished school already.
Ya cheeky whipper snapper!