Is IR training easier in Diamond twin star than a Duches or Seneca?
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Cyprus
Posts: 10
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Is IR training easier in Diamond twin star than a Duches or Seneca?
Hey IR guys i just wanted to know what do u think,if the G1000 actually gives u an advantage than usual analogue systems found in the other cockpits of other twins.
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Hunched over a keyboard
Posts: 1,193
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Our experience is that the aeroplane is easier to fly and that frees up time and mental capacity for operating it. Our first time pass rate has gone up markedly since we switched over from the Seneca.
The proof is in the pudding - of four students taking the IR test in the last week, we have had THREE first time passes and one partial. That's first time, not first series, by the way - we expect the partial to get a pass in the next day or two, making four first series passes.
The proof is in the pudding - of four students taking the IR test in the last week, we have had THREE first time passes and one partial. That's first time, not first series, by the way - we expect the partial to get a pass in the next day or two, making four first series passes.
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Cyprus
Posts: 10
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
first time passes
i dont have any reason not to believe you,but since i never been in a diamond twin star or an a/c with g1000,i would like to know more about how this airplane helps u more to achive ur targets,appart from the fact u dont have to worry about engine pitch and micture and things like that,what more G1000 can offer u?
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Hotel this week, hotel next week, home whenever...
Posts: 1,492
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
...and the presentation and operation is easier. You can immediately set CDI to currtent course at the push of a button. You can immediately identify your track across the ground for the heading you've selected. You can immediately see your wind vector. Cummulative distances and times. Autoload approaches. Auto Ident of beacons. There are more, but it's now midnight! (O.K, some of these are available on the 430 as well!)
And the big benefit.....everything is presented to you with your head still, all in easy eye movement.
However, big minus, it makes you lazy!
And the big benefit.....everything is presented to you with your head still, all in easy eye movement.
However, big minus, it makes you lazy!
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Too Low, Terrain.
Age: 38
Posts: 97
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
This is something I had been thinking about recently. I shall be taking my IR in the da-42 in due course. With all the smashing avionics on board, I was worried certain functions of the G1000 would be off-limits for the skills test. If this is not the case and the only part of the aircraft out of use are the windows, is the IR really worth the weight it carries?
Years ago when I first read about the IR test and what it involved, well, a change of underpants was required immediatly. Now, knowing I will have the g1000 facing me, I cant say im particularly worried!
Excellent news from moggiee, I hope that trend of first time passes continues as from what I read, a first time pass in the skills tests can carry some serious weight when looking for post-course employment!
JB
Years ago when I first read about the IR test and what it involved, well, a change of underpants was required immediatly. Now, knowing I will have the g1000 facing me, I cant say im particularly worried!
Excellent news from moggiee, I hope that trend of first time passes continues as from what I read, a first time pass in the skills tests can carry some serious weight when looking for post-course employment!
JB
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: finally based at home!
Posts: 106
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
i have flown both da42 and seneca, and i can say for sure that the IR would be easier to obtain a first time pass on the da42. I did my IR on the 42 and found it a real pleasure to fly. appart from being slower on the approach which gives you more time to think during the test, the glass avionics make the scan and information selection easier.
I now fly a traditional turboprop (very old school, often no autopilot) and found the transition back to steam instruments not very difficult. it was just a matter of changing my scan pattern to suit.
I now fly a traditional turboprop (very old school, often no autopilot) and found the transition back to steam instruments not very difficult. it was just a matter of changing my scan pattern to suit.
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Temporarily Uncertain...
Posts: 32
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Flying with the glass cockpit and all those gadgets has to be a bonus for the test however i flew the seneca and still got first TIME passes in both CPL and IR and i never had a problem with the seneca so to be honest i think it doesnt make a difference. If you work hard and ensure you are fully prepared then it doesnt matter what you are flying.
Just my opinion!
Just my opinion!
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Scotland
Age: 39
Posts: 548
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I done my CPL/IR on the Duchess and got first time passes. I opted against the DA42 as I believed it was better for my own personal reasons to push myself on the old steam driven technology. I knew It would be easier going from steam to glass than it would be from glass to steam. You could pay for additional training post-IR to convert onto conventional twins but its obviously much cheaper and more challenging doing to do it on steam twins in the first place!! train hard, fight easy!! :L
Can't wait till I have a go at the DA42 though, it doesn't seem like you have much to do!
Can't wait till I have a go at the DA42 though, it doesn't seem like you have much to do!
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Hunched over a keyboard
Posts: 1,193
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I am astounded by the macho posturing of those who seem to think that there is some merit in making life difficult for themselves when doing their IR. There is not.
There is a mistaken belief that if you train on the DA42 you will find it hard to fly the B737 or a Kingair and will only be able to fly an A320 in future. That is simply not the case.
A Seneca bears as much resemblance to a B737 or Citation as a 1960s vintage 850cc Mini does to a 2007 Aston Martin Vantage. Take it from someone who has flown piston singles, jet singles, twin turboprops and 4 jet airliners - the aeroplanes get easier to fly as they get bigger and you previous type has little relevance when you move up a class.
The whole point of an IR skills test is to prove that you understand IFR and can fly accurately and safely under IFR conditions - it has nothing to do with handling a Seneca/Duchess/DA42 as they are simply vehicles which you use to show the examiner that you can use an NDB!
In all probability, the most difficult flying you ever do will be the ME-IR - so if whatever you do next is going to be easier, leave the testosterone behind when you fly. Take the first time pass on the IR (in a DA42) and if you must, you can use the £1000-£1500 you saved by not having to resit towards the cost of doing some PA34 flying to prove how manly you are!
There is a mistaken belief that if you train on the DA42 you will find it hard to fly the B737 or a Kingair and will only be able to fly an A320 in future. That is simply not the case.
A Seneca bears as much resemblance to a B737 or Citation as a 1960s vintage 850cc Mini does to a 2007 Aston Martin Vantage. Take it from someone who has flown piston singles, jet singles, twin turboprops and 4 jet airliners - the aeroplanes get easier to fly as they get bigger and you previous type has little relevance when you move up a class.
The whole point of an IR skills test is to prove that you understand IFR and can fly accurately and safely under IFR conditions - it has nothing to do with handling a Seneca/Duchess/DA42 as they are simply vehicles which you use to show the examiner that you can use an NDB!
In all probability, the most difficult flying you ever do will be the ME-IR - so if whatever you do next is going to be easier, leave the testosterone behind when you fly. Take the first time pass on the IR (in a DA42) and if you must, you can use the £1000-£1500 you saved by not having to resit towards the cost of doing some PA34 flying to prove how manly you are!
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: finally based at home!
Posts: 106
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
i agree with moggie, there is no need to make things more difficult than necessary for the initial IR test.
Will Bryce- why is it easier to move from glass to analogue, than analogue to glass? what experience are you using to make this assessment? regardless of what twin you learn on any good school will require that you undergo differences training before flying a new aircraft- ME examiners must have 5 hours on type to relavidate ratings for example.and i fail to see how it is 'obviously much cheaper and more challenging doing to do it on steam twins in the first place'
If you learn to be a good instrument pilot then transitioning between glass and steam should not be a difficult challenge. Dont think that flying a DA42 is easy and you have nothing to do, its still a ME.
Will Bryce- why is it easier to move from glass to analogue, than analogue to glass? what experience are you using to make this assessment? regardless of what twin you learn on any good school will require that you undergo differences training before flying a new aircraft- ME examiners must have 5 hours on type to relavidate ratings for example.and i fail to see how it is 'obviously much cheaper and more challenging doing to do it on steam twins in the first place'
If you learn to be a good instrument pilot then transitioning between glass and steam should not be a difficult challenge. Dont think that flying a DA42 is easy and you have nothing to do, its still a ME.
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: wolves
Age: 47
Posts: 105
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I am about 20hours into the ME-IR (part time I might add - gasp). I am flying the Seminole Sim/Arrow/Seminole and by far the hardest thing for me is keeping ahead of the aircraft. Not so much in terms of handling but getting the right radio frequencies in standby in good time, remembering to start the timer on an a timed NDB approach (especially when you have just done a DME/NDB!), remembering to start/stop my decent on final etc. I found that the actual 'flying' of the aircraft and intepretation of the primary instruments came relativly quickly, in a similar way as flying visual becomes somewhat second nature during your PPL training.
I can understand that an aircraft with reduced workload (like the DA-42) may give you more time to think about these things but in principal, I can't imagine that the glass/steam issue, when we are talking about controlling the aircraft, makes a huge difference. There have been a few times when I have flown past my designated heading, or looked back to the AI to find myself diverging in bank angle when I have spent a little too much time tuning in the radios (for example), which may not have happened in the DA-42 due to the distance away from the Primary display that your eyes travel, but nothing too serious has happened so far.
I can see that flying the DA-42 would be 'easier' in that there is a reduced workload in general, and the scan would probably be easier, and if the aircraft is a little slower, and a bit more stable then that leaves more time for 'admin' (my sticking point) as well. But in principal, the concept of learning on a DA-42 and then converting to something with more levers doesn't scare me too much. But I can see how it could be said that Glass to Steam would probably take a little longer than Steam to Glass.
I can understand that an aircraft with reduced workload (like the DA-42) may give you more time to think about these things but in principal, I can't imagine that the glass/steam issue, when we are talking about controlling the aircraft, makes a huge difference. There have been a few times when I have flown past my designated heading, or looked back to the AI to find myself diverging in bank angle when I have spent a little too much time tuning in the radios (for example), which may not have happened in the DA-42 due to the distance away from the Primary display that your eyes travel, but nothing too serious has happened so far.
I can see that flying the DA-42 would be 'easier' in that there is a reduced workload in general, and the scan would probably be easier, and if the aircraft is a little slower, and a bit more stable then that leaves more time for 'admin' (my sticking point) as well. But in principal, the concept of learning on a DA-42 and then converting to something with more levers doesn't scare me too much. But I can see how it could be said that Glass to Steam would probably take a little longer than Steam to Glass.
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: wolves
Age: 47
Posts: 105
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Oh - in answer to the exam question "Is IR training easier in Diamond twin star than a Duches or Seneca?"
In my opinion - YES
Doesn't make it 'easy' though before I get shot down!
As a side note, the Seneca (certainly the Seneca 200T I did my initial twin training on) I found very difficult during go-arounds (both ME and SE), and even during take off due to the amount of 'head down' required not to overboost the engines, combined with the rather 'wooly' setting of MP you get with a turbocharged engine.
So I would go one step further and say IR is easier in the Seminole than a Seneca!" as well.
I guess there are 2 aspects to the IR. Operating the aircraft' and 'everything else'.
The easier the aircraft is to fly, operate etc - the more time there is for 'everything else' which has to be a good thing!
If I had a choice, I would do my IR on the DA-42!
In my opinion - YES
Doesn't make it 'easy' though before I get shot down!
As a side note, the Seneca (certainly the Seneca 200T I did my initial twin training on) I found very difficult during go-arounds (both ME and SE), and even during take off due to the amount of 'head down' required not to overboost the engines, combined with the rather 'wooly' setting of MP you get with a turbocharged engine.
So I would go one step further and say IR is easier in the Seminole than a Seneca!" as well.
I guess there are 2 aspects to the IR. Operating the aircraft' and 'everything else'.
The easier the aircraft is to fly, operate etc - the more time there is for 'everything else' which has to be a good thing!
If I had a choice, I would do my IR on the DA-42!
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Somewhere In The South China Sea
Posts: 960
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The variable during the IR is the student, (& the weather) no 2 students are at the same level, I did my IR on the Seneca II and didn't find it hard at all, gained a FTP and enjoyed the course immensely. If there is something out there to make your life easier then of course use it, but I would say forget the aircraft, choose the school that is best for you, and if they fly DA-42s then so be it.
As a side note potential employers wouldn't give a rat's arse whether you did your IR in a Glass cockpit or not, and 30-40hrs Multi time doesn't mean squat, I think there is alot of stigma with students wanting to "fly a glass cockpit aircraft", just to say you have done it and because it's a fancy bit of kit, nobody in the airline world cares. Just choose what is right for yourself & choose the school most likely to get you through the course 1st time.
As a side note potential employers wouldn't give a rat's arse whether you did your IR in a Glass cockpit or not, and 30-40hrs Multi time doesn't mean squat, I think there is alot of stigma with students wanting to "fly a glass cockpit aircraft", just to say you have done it and because it's a fancy bit of kit, nobody in the airline world cares. Just choose what is right for yourself & choose the school most likely to get you through the course 1st time.