Instrument Training and Rating
Thanks for un-merging scroggs.
I agree with everything Dan has said and I also did my MEP prior to starting my IR. I only did about an hours P1 in the multi as it's virtually impossible to rent one as a fresh MEP pilot.
SW
I agree with everything Dan has said and I also did my MEP prior to starting my IR. I only did about an hours P1 in the multi as it's virtually impossible to rent one as a fresh MEP pilot.
SW
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A MEP issue to throw into the cooking pot and brew, purely a cost factor.
If your intended route is a Multi-CPL followed by a Multi-IR, some of those schools that do CPL first will combine the CPL with the MEP, so you save a bit of cash having only one test. See LASORS D1.2
However going the IR route first I believe means you would have to do the MEP separately.
If your intended route is a Multi-CPL followed by a Multi-IR, some of those schools that do CPL first will combine the CPL with the MEP, so you save a bit of cash having only one test. See LASORS D1.2
However going the IR route first I believe means you would have to do the MEP separately.
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Well, I've decided to do the ME first after reading this and similar threads in recent days. Thanks to Dan98 for your notes.
Next question...where?. I'm doing the ATPL ground at present, so am not in a mad rush to do it...but the question is do I do it at a prof pilot training FTO or any PPL FTO in my vicinity? would there be a subtle but important difference in the training??? Should I just stick with one FTO for the whole ME/IR/CPL/MCC? or am I splitting hairs?
Next question...where?. I'm doing the ATPL ground at present, so am not in a mad rush to do it...but the question is do I do it at a prof pilot training FTO or any PPL FTO in my vicinity? would there be a subtle but important difference in the training??? Should I just stick with one FTO for the whole ME/IR/CPL/MCC? or am I splitting hairs?
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I did the IR first too - I don't really think it made any difference - you do a bit of stuff under the hood on your CPL, but not enough to be of help in your IR that's for sure. The Seneca was faster etc. but I found it a really stable platform and yes it has two engines etc, but it wasn't that much more to manage than a Piper Warrior really once you'd got used to the power settings etc. and remember which levers to move and when!
The best thing for me was getting the IR out of the way first - it was the one I worried about most, so it gave my confidence a real boost when I started the CPL.
If you have an IMC rating already it helps too...
The best thing for me was getting the IR out of the way first - it was the one I worried about most, so it gave my confidence a real boost when I started the CPL.
If you have an IMC rating already it helps too...
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Am going off topic a bit - pls forgive me: I used to have an IMC...and I realised it may be handy to get back before doing the IR later in the year - so I called CabAir at Blackbushe to arrange some time to get it revalidated (7.5hrs I believe)...they told me that they "have no capacity to take on new IMC work until well into the new year"
!!! FTOs turning down customers due lack of capacity....mmmm.
Plenty more FTO's in the sea I suppose.
!!! FTOs turning down customers due lack of capacity....mmmm.Plenty more FTO's in the sea I suppose.
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FTO
Bandit650,
Definitely do all your commercial training at one school.
http://www.b-f-c.co.uk/
cannot recommend them enough. You will do the MEP first but not the test, you will do 6hrs, then do your IR, with the Multi test afterwards with some 55hrs under your belt, as someone else said the MEP is a bit of a wierd one as no one would rent you a Seneca with those hours!!! Then with all that done onto the CPL, 15hrs, all done go home!
I believe Stapleford is pretty good as well which may be nearer to where you currently reside.
All the best
Dan
Definitely do all your commercial training at one school.
http://www.b-f-c.co.uk/
cannot recommend them enough. You will do the MEP first but not the test, you will do 6hrs, then do your IR, with the Multi test afterwards with some 55hrs under your belt, as someone else said the MEP is a bit of a wierd one as no one would rent you a Seneca with those hours!!! Then with all that done onto the CPL, 15hrs, all done go home!
I believe Stapleford is pretty good as well which may be nearer to where you currently reside.
All the best
Dan
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I wouldn't bother getting your IMC rating revalidated if I were you - a bit of practice with the foggles on and a safety pilot should be all you need to get you back into it. If I were you I would work on some NDB tracking, a couple of holds and some procedural stuff. An instrument trainer like RANT or MS flightsim represents great value for money too...
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I've spent far to much time in front of MS FlightSim as it is (been flying it since 1987! ...but there again I did originally get the IMC in min hrs thanks to it), so dont need any more encouragement to turn it on when I should be heads down in atpl PrincipalsOfFlight chapter 2.!!
Good point though - thanks
!!Good point though - thanks
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Instrument Flying Questions
Its been a while since I did one of these. I can't remember the rule of thumb for working out the time for the out bound leg, or how to work out the drift to apply before times'ing it by 3.
Say your hold takes 3mins 30secs, do you just shorten the out bound by dividing the 30secs by 3 and taking the answer off the 1min leg?
My memory fails me and I've forgotten the techniques I learnt in those dark times...
Say your hold takes 3mins 30secs, do you just shorten the out bound by dividing the 30secs by 3 and taking the answer off the 1min leg?
My memory fails me and I've forgotten the techniques I learnt in those dark times...
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Outbound leg timed from the start of the abeam is 1 minute +/- wind, at 1 second per head/tailwind component, and the drift is 2 x drift angle if the wind is within 60 deg of outbound, if it's outside 60 deg it's 3 x drift up to a maximum of 30 degrees.
hope this helps
Dean
hope this helps
Dean
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Cheers Deano, that does help.
I think its the clock method for working out the wind component in the first place is it not? i.e wind 30deg off out bound leg = 1/2 the drift or something?
Say for example the outbound leg is 270deg and the wind is 310/20.
Its this method for working out drift angle and time that I'm having trouble with.
I think its the clock method for working out the wind component in the first place is it not? i.e wind 30deg off out bound leg = 1/2 the drift or something?
Say for example the outbound leg is 270deg and the wind is 310/20.
Its this method for working out drift angle and time that I'm having trouble with.
Last edited by IDENTING; 18th Mar 2007 at 16:49.
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Identing
Just work out the max drift to start with, if you are in a 120kt plane like the Seneca (at slow cruise) then use ½ the wind speed for max drift regardless of wind, so in an example let's say the wind is 310/40, the max drift is 20kts, and yes use the clock code to determine drift angle, for the clock code obviously
15 deg is ¼ max drift (so 5kts)
20 deg is 1/3 max drift (so 7kts)
30 deg is ½ max drift (so 10kts)
40 deg is 2/3 max drift (so 14kts)
45 deg is ¾ max drift (so 15kts)
50 deg is 5/6 max drift (so about 18kts)
60 deg is all of max drift.
Wind is 40 deg off outbound heading, so we are going to use 2/3 max drift, so that's 14kts, our heading outbound is going to be 2 x the drift because the wind is within 60 deg off outbound track, so that's 28kts into wind giving us a heading of 298, and as you can see this gives us a heading that is pretty much directly into wind now, so as it's 40kts we will go outbound for 1:45 secs, why the extra 5 seconds? well the wind given is only the forecast wind, it maybe 50kts, always best to over estimate. so we fly outbound on a heading of 298 for 1:45 then turn inbound.
Another example, outbound track is 270 deg, forecast wind is 340/30, so straight away max drift is 15kts, wind is 70 deg off outbound track so we use 3 x drift, as wind is 70 deg off we have all max drift as our correction, so 3 x 15kts = 45 deg into wind, but we are limited to 30 deg, so heading outbound is 270 + 30 = 300deg, and we'll go outbound for 1:35.
I hope this makes sense
Dean
Just work out the max drift to start with, if you are in a 120kt plane like the Seneca (at slow cruise) then use ½ the wind speed for max drift regardless of wind, so in an example let's say the wind is 310/40, the max drift is 20kts, and yes use the clock code to determine drift angle, for the clock code obviously
15 deg is ¼ max drift (so 5kts)
20 deg is 1/3 max drift (so 7kts)
30 deg is ½ max drift (so 10kts)
40 deg is 2/3 max drift (so 14kts)
45 deg is ¾ max drift (so 15kts)
50 deg is 5/6 max drift (so about 18kts)
60 deg is all of max drift.
Wind is 40 deg off outbound heading, so we are going to use 2/3 max drift, so that's 14kts, our heading outbound is going to be 2 x the drift because the wind is within 60 deg off outbound track, so that's 28kts into wind giving us a heading of 298, and as you can see this gives us a heading that is pretty much directly into wind now, so as it's 40kts we will go outbound for 1:45 secs, why the extra 5 seconds? well the wind given is only the forecast wind, it maybe 50kts, always best to over estimate. so we fly outbound on a heading of 298 for 1:45 then turn inbound.
Another example, outbound track is 270 deg, forecast wind is 340/30, so straight away max drift is 15kts, wind is 70 deg off outbound track so we use 3 x drift, as wind is 70 deg off we have all max drift as our correction, so 3 x 15kts = 45 deg into wind, but we are limited to 30 deg, so heading outbound is 270 + 30 = 300deg, and we'll go outbound for 1:35.
I hope this makes sense
Dean
Why do it if it's not fun?
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In addition to Deano's answers:
No, divide the 30 secs (i.e. the amount over the 3 minutes) by 2, not by 3. (The assumption being made is that adding a second to the outbound leg will also affect the inbound leg by approx one second, but will not affect the time in the turns.)
But the key thing to remember here is that all the planning you do for the hold is just aimed at getting you onto the inbound correctly. There are dozens of different methods, some of which involve an immense amount of work for very little gain. But as long as you manage to get yourself onto the inbound leg reasonably successfully (and understand the ADF needle well enough to correct quickly and accurately when - not if - it doesn't work out), all the planning really amounts to nothing.
FFF
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Say your hold takes 3mins 30secs, do you just shorten the out bound by dividing the 30secs by 3 and taking the answer off the 1min leg?
But the key thing to remember here is that all the planning you do for the hold is just aimed at getting you onto the inbound correctly. There are dozens of different methods, some of which involve an immense amount of work for very little gain. But as long as you manage to get yourself onto the inbound leg reasonably successfully (and understand the ADF needle well enough to correct quickly and accurately when - not if - it doesn't work out), all the planning really amounts to nothing.
FFF
---------------
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Cheers FFF,
that helps too, its all very slowly starting to come back to me. I just needed a quick rule of thumb to work it out in the air. There's no point in working it out thoroughly on the ground to find out 2 hrs later near the end of the flight the wind has totally changed! I used to be really anoyed with myself if I couldn't get to within +- 5secs of 3mins untill I realised the IR examiners really couldn't give a s--t as long as it was more or less right.
that helps too, its all very slowly starting to come back to me. I just needed a quick rule of thumb to work it out in the air. There's no point in working it out thoroughly on the ground to find out 2 hrs later near the end of the flight the wind has totally changed! I used to be really anoyed with myself if I couldn't get to within +- 5secs of 3mins untill I realised the IR examiners really couldn't give a s--t as long as it was more or less right.
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VOR C approach
Some VOR approaches have the letter C behind the title like the Scottsdale VOR Charlie approach, I've noticed this in more approach plates, what does this stand for?
regards,
RitsaartK
regards,
RitsaartK
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It means that the approach is not to a specific runway, hence the letter. The approach will end with a circle to land.
Have a look at the approach plate a bit more closely at the bottom strip and compare it with say a plate that has a runway number.
The letter C means there there is also an A & B approach too.
Have a look at the approach plate a bit more closely at the bottom strip and compare it with say a plate that has a runway number.
The letter C means there there is also an A & B approach too.