Cardiff Wales Flying Club (CWFC) Bankrupt
Join Date: Sep 2004
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There seems at lot of schools around that the CAA knows are in financial troubles but continues to allow them to take money up front from customers. They turn a blind eye dispite warnings from ex empoyees etc, and do not investigate. Customers do not understand these companies are sailing close to the wind and think if they are approved by the CAA they are above board and it is all legit. It applies also to CPL schools which are meant to prove their financial viability but it is not looked at properly thus destroying peoples dreams.
Cannot this be regulated.... when companies start to fall financially they also start to break safety rules etc....but the CAA just ignores it ...why?
Cannot this be regulated.... when companies start to fall financially they also start to break safety rules etc....but the CAA just ignores it ...why?
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Hiya Nasib,
It was good to "see" you also today.
Watch this space regarding Beacon slots it was not an ATC decision to change the rules regarding them but a directive from CWL, CWL however has a policy which allows locally based aircraft to book Beacon Slots.
Stone Cold I would also be careful in making statements which say "never". A very fluid place the aviation world.
It was good to "see" you also today.
Watch this space regarding Beacon slots it was not an ATC decision to change the rules regarding them but a directive from CWL, CWL however has a policy which allows locally based aircraft to book Beacon Slots.
Stone Cold I would also be careful in making statements which say "never". A very fluid place the aviation world.
Join Date: May 2004
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So i have a ppl and no where to fly now? any ideas? Do you think some party will move in soon,plenty of pilots to provide for if its ran well! (any more rumours to be told)
Last edited by pipertommy; 6th Oct 2004 at 22:32.
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Couple of thoughts...
Flower is as usual, spot on.
She is right to say that this business is notariously fluid. To all those who are worried that there will be no access to aircraft, no possibility of flying, no school in Cardiff - have a little patience. Things will get better. The airport is NOT opposed to having another club/school at the airport, and is, like NATS at Cardiff, very pro-GA in the main. Beacon slots etc - for Cardiff based aircraft that was never really an issue, as Flower said. And it won't be in the future - have faith. Trust me on this - I know more about what is going on than I can say.
She is also right in saying that the CAA needs to take a far deeper interest in the running of flying clubs. I spend a lot of time professionally dealing with the CAA in Kingsway with regard to airline licensing, and the good people there deal with two prime aims - to protect the reputation of the industry, and to protect consumers' money. It seems strange that the clients I serve cannot take a bean off a member of the public in respect of an airline seat until they are correctly licensed, bonded and have proven the funds are protected, and yet it seems quite OK to take a couple of thou off someone who wants to fly themselves without ANY protection....
Keep the faith, Cardiff people - we'll all be airborne again sooner rather than later.
TA
Flower is as usual, spot on.
She is right to say that this business is notariously fluid. To all those who are worried that there will be no access to aircraft, no possibility of flying, no school in Cardiff - have a little patience. Things will get better. The airport is NOT opposed to having another club/school at the airport, and is, like NATS at Cardiff, very pro-GA in the main. Beacon slots etc - for Cardiff based aircraft that was never really an issue, as Flower said. And it won't be in the future - have faith. Trust me on this - I know more about what is going on than I can say.
She is also right in saying that the CAA needs to take a far deeper interest in the running of flying clubs. I spend a lot of time professionally dealing with the CAA in Kingsway with regard to airline licensing, and the good people there deal with two prime aims - to protect the reputation of the industry, and to protect consumers' money. It seems strange that the clients I serve cannot take a bean off a member of the public in respect of an airline seat until they are correctly licensed, bonded and have proven the funds are protected, and yet it seems quite OK to take a couple of thou off someone who wants to fly themselves without ANY protection....
Keep the faith, Cardiff people - we'll all be airborne again sooner rather than later.
TA
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Thats what i wanted to hear! looking forward to a bright future!really enjoy flying out of Cardiff,and i can walk to the club from work,cant do that with Swansea! hope the new one does CPL training
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There is no bond. The closest the CAA gets to financial regulation is a requirement in JAR FCL1 for them to establish the financial security of a commercial flight school.
JAR FCL 1.055 9 (a) A FTO shall satisfy the Authority that sufficient funding is available to conduct training to the approved standards (see IEM No. 2 to JAR–FCL 1.055).
This applies only to commercial FTOs, flight schools that need to be approved for CPL, ATPL or IR, not a recognised school such as Cardiff Wales Flying Club that only does PPLs.
In practice and when it applies this takes the form of a statement from the company's accountant that the most recent accounts have been audited and that the company is, in the accountant's opinion, a going concern.
There is a minor difficulty here because most FTOs fall below the threshold of turnover where auditing is required. The guidelines for the Institute of Chartered Accountants about what an accountant may and may not say are so rigid nowadays that the CAA usually have to accept an alternative statement in the accountant's own words that does not include the word 'audit'.
Apart from the restricted applicability the obvious flaw in the system is that the statement is made up to a year before the events and relies on financial information that is at least a year old, and a lot can change in a year.
JAR FCL 1.055 9 (a) A FTO shall satisfy the Authority that sufficient funding is available to conduct training to the approved standards (see IEM No. 2 to JAR–FCL 1.055).
This applies only to commercial FTOs, flight schools that need to be approved for CPL, ATPL or IR, not a recognised school such as Cardiff Wales Flying Club that only does PPLs.
In practice and when it applies this takes the form of a statement from the company's accountant that the most recent accounts have been audited and that the company is, in the accountant's opinion, a going concern.
There is a minor difficulty here because most FTOs fall below the threshold of turnover where auditing is required. The guidelines for the Institute of Chartered Accountants about what an accountant may and may not say are so rigid nowadays that the CAA usually have to accept an alternative statement in the accountant's own words that does not include the word 'audit'.
Apart from the restricted applicability the obvious flaw in the system is that the statement is made up to a year before the events and relies on financial information that is at least a year old, and a lot can change in a year.
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A lot of constructive comments are now starting to appear. I too am hoping for a new club to start very soon although I very much doubt it will be aeros. As for the fleet. The club only owns two tommahawks one of which is close to engine expire. Less than 50 hours before repalcement. The rest of the fleet has been hired in from various sources. Good luck to all the staff escpecially Mel, Debs and Pete and of course those poor instructors. But if rumors are correctv then they won't have long to wait before they're back at work for a new club.
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Yip just seen G-WARZ take off into the sunset for the last time.But they had trouble starting it .Dont think it wanted to go
Last edited by pipertommy; 10th Oct 2004 at 11:16.
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If I remember rightly it had a flat battery... Or was that G-ETDA? Anyway one of the Warriors had a flat battery and a flight was abandoned earlier this week.
I believe it was G-WARZ which was my favourite Warrior III which I normally only flew if I had to take it down to Bournemouth for maintenance checks - good days out they were!
Yup I usually had the freebie maintenance flights... thank you!! I will miss those for obvious reasons.
I believe it was G-WARZ which was my favourite Warrior III which I normally only flew if I had to take it down to Bournemouth for maintenance checks - good days out they were!
Yup I usually had the freebie maintenance flights... thank you!! I will miss those for obvious reasons.
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Sorry to hear the news about one of my old clubs, I was at Cardiff Aero too.
Only been in the clubhouse a few times in the past few years but everytime it seemed to have less and less to offer, fewer students, fewer aircraft and fewer people chewing the cud at the bar.
If Aeros goes there it will be great for the airport, I left CWFC to join Aeros after my IR and found them to be very professional.
My thoughts go outto all those who've lost their jobs there, esp Mel.
Regards
Only been in the clubhouse a few times in the past few years but everytime it seemed to have less and less to offer, fewer students, fewer aircraft and fewer people chewing the cud at the bar.
If Aeros goes there it will be great for the airport, I left CWFC to join Aeros after my IR and found them to be very professional.
My thoughts go outto all those who've lost their jobs there, esp Mel.
Regards
Join Date: Oct 2004
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New facility
It seems some of the existing committee members have approached the airport with a proposal.
Maybe I am missing something but isn't this a bit like the owners of the Titanic offering a very special deal on her next voyage?
Correct me if I have got the wrong end of the stick!
Maybe I am missing something but isn't this a bit like the owners of the Titanic offering a very special deal on her next voyage?
Correct me if I have got the wrong end of the stick!
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With response to the Titanic reference. The committee had a very hard task as the club had inheritted most of its debts from previous years and previous committees 
. Im sure that those involved in starting a new club will go about it in a professional manor and have a clear idea of what is expected. You have to understand that CWFC was a members club and so it was highly unlikely that someone would come to its rescue since there is no chance of those individuals making a profit. As it stands now who ever sets up a flying club at Cardiff has a great opportunity to make it a success. My preference would be Aeros since the facilities at Cardiff are ideal for Commercial training (has a beacon for IR training that currently only home based aircraft can use for training). I have flown there for many years and have found ATC to be a very helpful bunch especially when it comes to dealing with students on their solo's. Keep up the great work and lets hope that a new club starts before the end of October. 
. Im sure that those involved in starting a new club will go about it in a professional manor and have a clear idea of what is expected. You have to understand that CWFC was a members club and so it was highly unlikely that someone would come to its rescue since there is no chance of those individuals making a profit. As it stands now who ever sets up a flying club at Cardiff has a great opportunity to make it a success. My preference would be Aeros since the facilities at Cardiff are ideal for Commercial training (has a beacon for IR training that currently only home based aircraft can use for training). I have flown there for many years and have found ATC to be a very helpful bunch especially when it comes to dealing with students on their solo's. Keep up the great work and lets hope that a new club starts before the end of October.
such a shame, nice bunch up the club, hope some good will come of all thisThread Starter
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Traumahawk71 said:
I have to disagree.
As for inherited debts, we can argue and argue about that until the cows come home and we will never know the causes of the debts and whether or not they could have been overcome. All I can say is that debts have been handed from committee to committee since the day the club was formed.
However, I think that the evidence shows that "those involved in starting a new club" are certainly far from professional:
They have failed to notify the members that their club has ceased tradng - no letter, no email - please remember that the club is "owned by the members and run for the members" So the majority of the owners do not know that their business is in receivership - appauling in my opinion.
They failed to tell the part time instructors (staff) that they no longer had a job. Infact a part time instructor was outside the club two days ago with his trial lesson and all of their family trying to get in - how embarassing for a professional pilot.
So, what makes you think that members of the current committee will act professionaly if they are sucessful in taking over the club?
And this itself raises the question as to why they were so unprofessional when running the club on behalf of it's members - food for thought there!!
The committee had a very hard task as the club had inheritted most of its debts from previous years and previous committees . Im sure that those involved in starting a new club will go about it in a professional manor and have a clear idea of what is expected.
As for inherited debts, we can argue and argue about that until the cows come home and we will never know the causes of the debts and whether or not they could have been overcome. All I can say is that debts have been handed from committee to committee since the day the club was formed.
However, I think that the evidence shows that "those involved in starting a new club" are certainly far from professional:
They have failed to notify the members that their club has ceased tradng - no letter, no email - please remember that the club is "owned by the members and run for the members" So the majority of the owners do not know that their business is in receivership - appauling in my opinion.
They failed to tell the part time instructors (staff) that they no longer had a job. Infact a part time instructor was outside the club two days ago with his trial lesson and all of their family trying to get in - how embarassing for a professional pilot.
So, what makes you think that members of the current committee will act professionaly if they are sucessful in taking over the club?
And this itself raises the question as to why they were so unprofessional when running the club on behalf of it's members - food for thought there!!
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It's the usual story, unfortunately....
CWFC has always been a members' club, with a committee elected to run the show. Over the years, large debts have built up, which the current committee have worked hard to repay. This summer has been a disaster for the club - the weather in Cardiff has been poor, the number of hours flown has been decimated, and in order to recover the club overheads, the rental costs started to rise - to the point where a Warrior was costing £125 an hour. Result - even fewer hours flown.
The final nail in the coffin was two large bills - one from the airport authority, one from the VAT man - which have proved to be unpayable, I understand. The subject has been explored in more depth on ukga.com and flyer.co.uk, for those who would like more info.
Hopeful that the club (or more likely, the club's successor organisation) can get going asap - and restore the careers of the instructors, and the lovely crowd in the restaurant (Mel, Debs, Alex etc etc)
TFL
CWFC has always been a members' club, with a committee elected to run the show. Over the years, large debts have built up, which the current committee have worked hard to repay. This summer has been a disaster for the club - the weather in Cardiff has been poor, the number of hours flown has been decimated, and in order to recover the club overheads, the rental costs started to rise - to the point where a Warrior was costing £125 an hour. Result - even fewer hours flown.
The final nail in the coffin was two large bills - one from the airport authority, one from the VAT man - which have proved to be unpayable, I understand. The subject has been explored in more depth on ukga.com and flyer.co.uk, for those who would like more info.
Hopeful that the club (or more likely, the club's successor organisation) can get going asap - and restore the careers of the instructors, and the lovely crowd in the restaurant (Mel, Debs, Alex etc etc)
TFL