DIY aeros - was I nuts?
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Miserlou,
Is a Tiger more forgiving than aircraft today? - Mmm.. I dunno.. I also don't know what type LP was flying...
Neil Williams is dead - FYI he flew into a side of a mountain in IMC. He was not killed by doing aeros.
Kingy
Is a Tiger more forgiving than aircraft today? - Mmm.. I dunno.. I also don't know what type LP was flying...
Neil Williams is dead - FYI he flew into a side of a mountain in IMC. He was not killed by doing aeros.
Kingy
Last edited by Kingy; 5th Aug 2003 at 01:08.
Some more money for Capt PPRuNe
Liar's Poker
I think the other postings pretty much sum up what is basically good advice.
Remember that in aviation situations can very quickly turn from something you feel you have complete control over to something very nasty in the space of no time at all. Bear this in mind next time you decide to do aero's as you described.
Rich
I think the other postings pretty much sum up what is basically good advice.
Remember that in aviation situations can very quickly turn from something you feel you have complete control over to something very nasty in the space of no time at all. Bear this in mind next time you decide to do aero's as you described.
Rich
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O.K T&G you got me. We did do some daft things, in fact probably far worse than what Liar's poker is mentioning. Scared myself stupid(er) a couple of times to. Mind you, do you remember some of the stories Brucie H used to tell. No wonder his hair was so white.
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Kingy.
We don't want to open the discussion about modern trainers and their insufficiencies so in the context of the period in question when the Tiger was the standard....
The Tiger Moth is not a difficult aircraft to fly and, in common with most light aircraft of the era, has low power, low wing loading, high drag and no washout. The low speed, combined with construction, mean that the Tiger absorbs energy much better than many other aircraft in the event of an accident. The speed is also less likely to get out of control than with a cleaner design.
From Neil's accounts, which you presented as making it OK to teach yourself aerobatics, the message is clear- DON'T. Get proper training!
I am well aware of the circumstances of his death. The point is that he wasn't, as some believed, perfect.
Please don't misunderstand me, I hold his works and piloting skills in high regard.
We don't want to open the discussion about modern trainers and their insufficiencies so in the context of the period in question when the Tiger was the standard....
The Tiger Moth is not a difficult aircraft to fly and, in common with most light aircraft of the era, has low power, low wing loading, high drag and no washout. The low speed, combined with construction, mean that the Tiger absorbs energy much better than many other aircraft in the event of an accident. The speed is also less likely to get out of control than with a cleaner design.
From Neil's accounts, which you presented as making it OK to teach yourself aerobatics, the message is clear- DON'T. Get proper training!
I am well aware of the circumstances of his death. The point is that he wasn't, as some believed, perfect.
Please don't misunderstand me, I hold his works and piloting skills in high regard.
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Hell, just becuase some two bit instructor has "checked you out" doesn't give you some magic safety halo.
A thoughtful private pilot having researched the subject could easily perfrom some basic aeros in an appropriate type without undue hazard.
Far more dangerous are the common 1hr 'checkout' in different types that scantly cover important differences. Nobody told me when I converted from C152 to PA28 that there were two fuel tanks with a selector. That nearly killed me.
Trying a roll in an aircraft with +6 -4 with some forethought is safe as houses by comparison.
Cheers
WWW
A thoughtful private pilot having researched the subject could easily perfrom some basic aeros in an appropriate type without undue hazard.
Far more dangerous are the common 1hr 'checkout' in different types that scantly cover important differences. Nobody told me when I converted from C152 to PA28 that there were two fuel tanks with a selector. That nearly killed me.
Trying a roll in an aircraft with +6 -4 with some forethought is safe as houses by comparison.
Cheers
WWW
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www - I have to agree with you about cross training between types - I've flown a few and many a time having passed a "a check out" with an instructor, I found myself continuing to ask 10min more of questions on things he hadn't covered. So know I always factor in time now to read the POH & often find it contradicts what the instructor says anyway – and I know which to trust! 
back to thread:
Having learnt & flown aerobatics some years ago, I would say it's not tooooo dangerous to "have an informed go" ONLY if you
1) Know your aircraft limits not just G, but the rest like - how many seconds inverted - it may be injected, but what about oil; how much height do you need to recover from a spin, etc.
2) Have been up with an instructor to LEARN how to recover from spins in your aircraft. Erect/ flat/ inverted. If you only can do one type (I was only able to practice erect spins) then at least be aware on how to recover from the others and limit the manovers you perform appropriately.
However, getting someone who knows to show you is best, quickest and SAFEST way, so why not carry on with the guy/ girl who takes you spinning!
back to thread:
Having learnt & flown aerobatics some years ago, I would say it's not tooooo dangerous to "have an informed go" ONLY if you
1) Know your aircraft limits not just G, but the rest like - how many seconds inverted - it may be injected, but what about oil; how much height do you need to recover from a spin, etc.
2) Have been up with an instructor to LEARN how to recover from spins in your aircraft. Erect/ flat/ inverted. If you only can do one type (I was only able to practice erect spins) then at least be aware on how to recover from the others and limit the manovers you perform appropriately.
However, getting someone who knows to show you is best, quickest and SAFEST way, so why not carry on with the guy/ girl who takes you spinning!
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Building on down&out, some more thoughts:
Things to keep you alive & things to learn, seperate from learning specific figures...
1. Not Hitting things.
- Safe altitudes.
- Spin Recoveries*
- Clearing turns.
2. Not Breaking the aeroplane (from G)
- G Limits for the Type
- Weight & Balance (for aeros on the Type)
3. Not Breaking the aeroplane (from Speed)
- Unusual Attitude Recovery, rolling level not pulling through.
4. And if the above didn't work, getting out.
- Use of chute, if available.
* Both ways up if poss.
There's a bunch of other things that might not kill you right there and then, but may be bad news in the long run. Even worse, they may be bad news for someone else, which is not nice...
e.g. Overspeeding the engine, or overclocking on G and resetting the meter.
Things to keep you alive & things to learn, seperate from learning specific figures...
1. Not Hitting things.
- Safe altitudes.
- Spin Recoveries*
- Clearing turns.
2. Not Breaking the aeroplane (from G)
- G Limits for the Type
- Weight & Balance (for aeros on the Type)
3. Not Breaking the aeroplane (from Speed)
- Unusual Attitude Recovery, rolling level not pulling through.
4. And if the above didn't work, getting out.
- Use of chute, if available.
* Both ways up if poss.
There's a bunch of other things that might not kill you right there and then, but may be bad news in the long run. Even worse, they may be bad news for someone else, which is not nice...
e.g. Overspeeding the engine, or overclocking on G and resetting the meter.
Last edited by paulo; 8th Aug 2003 at 18:20.
Where you nuts? Not really, but hopefully you will heed caution after the advice on this thread. I personally know of one person who died trying out aeros on his own (well, that's what the inquiry summised). And I bet he wasn't the only one.
My advice is get some instruction. The original skills were learn't the hard way and there are enough instructors to pass on those skills without further risks being necessary.
My advice is get some instruction. The original skills were learn't the hard way and there are enough instructors to pass on those skills without further risks being necessary.
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* Both ways up if poss, otherwise training in a generic technique such as Beggs Muller.
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As I remember it, Buggs-Muller is;
Power off, centre stick, press rudder pedal that gives most resistance, wait for spin to stop, recover
But stik will probably correct me
Sure it's been discussed, but couldn't find it in a search.
Power off, centre stick, press rudder pedal that gives most resistance, wait for spin to stop, recover
But stik will probably correct me
Sure it's been discussed, but couldn't find it in a search.
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Evo, Justiciar,
The book is never far from my side:
POWER OFF
LET GO STICK
PRESS ANTI YAW PEDAL
RECOVER FROM THE DIVE
It doesn't work in the Chippie and Beggs had problems with it in an Aerobat.
IT does work in the Pitts.
Stik
The book is never far from my side:
POWER OFF
LET GO STICK
PRESS ANTI YAW PEDAL
RECOVER FROM THE DIVE
It doesn't work in the Chippie and Beggs had problems with it in an Aerobat.
IT does work in the Pitts.
Stik
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Is the anti-yaw pedal not always the same as the pedal which gives the most resistance? The latter seems like a good way of getting things right if you're unsure of what is going on, but obviously i don't want to be pressing the wrong one...
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I think that the comments on this thread, which at times have been contradictory on some recovery actions, just goes to highlight how important it is to get proper traing on type before blasting off and having a go rather than relying on bar room talk. I have done a few aeros now, and every now and again it does not go to plan and trained instinct take over to recover the mess. No training, no instinct and the next thing you know is someone with a JCB is backfilling the hole you made.
Pleeeeeeeeeeeaaaaaase get some quality training from a proper aeros instructor ( not some youth who has rushed through the removal of the aerobatic retsiction in a 150 aerobat last week, but a competition hardened, or long staning instructor, if not for your benefit then for the benefit of your family and the rest of us who do not want to see dead airman or worse, bent aircraft.
Sorry, bee in bonnet, as I am sure the original poster has already booked some lessons.
Pleeeeeeeeeeeaaaaaase get some quality training from a proper aeros instructor ( not some youth who has rushed through the removal of the aerobatic retsiction in a 150 aerobat last week, but a competition hardened, or long staning instructor, if not for your benefit then for the benefit of your family and the rest of us who do not want to see dead airman or worse, bent aircraft.
Sorry, bee in bonnet, as I am sure the original poster has already booked some lessons.
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Kingy,
It'll be a long night then. You'll have to buy me a few! Jonathon, yes, beautiful book but 'Illusions' is much more practical advice.
Best Aerobatic Regards,
Miserlou.
On the subject of the quick checkout-mongers, I find it astonishing that you'd go and fly a strange aircraft without adequate preparation.
You'll find you're in breach of the ANO if you fail to make yourself aware of the peculiarities of any given type. It's your responsibility!
One hour of flight is plenty for most GA types even 'complex' types if you've read the book first.
Then when you go to fly you have a list of relevant questions first and then concentrate on flying the aircraft when you get in the air!
It'll be a long night then. You'll have to buy me a few! Jonathon, yes, beautiful book but 'Illusions' is much more practical advice.
Best Aerobatic Regards,
Miserlou.
On the subject of the quick checkout-mongers, I find it astonishing that you'd go and fly a strange aircraft without adequate preparation.
You'll find you're in breach of the ANO if you fail to make yourself aware of the peculiarities of any given type. It's your responsibility!
One hour of flight is plenty for most GA types even 'complex' types if you've read the book first.
Then when you go to fly you have a list of relevant questions first and then concentrate on flying the aircraft when you get in the air!
Last edited by Miserlou; 7th Aug 2003 at 04:55.