Traffic in close vicinity
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Traffic in close vicinity
I am currently suffering from huge amounts of anxiety and tension when flying VFR and in the close proximity of other aircraft.
Today I had a close encounter with a glider that I'm still shocked about, I regularly scan the skies but how sure can we be that another aircraft can simply not appear out of the clouds on a constant relative bearing?
What do you suggest I do to overcome this fear of being "smashed to pieces" midair?
Lastly regarding Gliders in the South East of England: Is it likely gliders creep up to 3000ft and do they have large rates of descents and climbs unlike powered aircraft?
Please any advice before my solo Nav qual...
Thanks
Today I had a close encounter with a glider that I'm still shocked about, I regularly scan the skies but how sure can we be that another aircraft can simply not appear out of the clouds on a constant relative bearing?
What do you suggest I do to overcome this fear of being "smashed to pieces" midair?
Lastly regarding Gliders in the South East of England: Is it likely gliders creep up to 3000ft and do they have large rates of descents and climbs unlike powered aircraft?
Please any advice before my solo Nav qual...
Thanks
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There is a good CAA Safety Sense Leaflet 13A on Collision Avoidance here it talks about maximising the efficiency of your look out as well as many other topics to help in this area. I hope it helps reduce your fears and optimize your skills and enjoyment of your solo navigation exercise.
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It's the one you don't see that will get you and I suppose you can never guarantee 100% that you'll see everything.
What can you do? Keep eyes outside as much as possibe, get a radar service from someone if you can. Train yourself to actually scan and not just aimlessly look outside, the RAF have a good system for this. Easier said than done.
As for gliders, I'm no expert, but if it's a good gliding day expect to see gliders operating up to cloudbase, whatever height that may be. In areas where there's wave expect to see them a lot higher than you might expect.
Personaly I find gliders quite hard to spot given that most of them are white, first contact is usually when they're turning and you get a glint of sunshine from them. To a certain extent you possibly are relying on the glider seeing you first.
There's a major gliding comp on at Lasham this week, 50+ gliders launching at a time, looks impressive on the radar and even more so when stood underneath watching
WF.
What can you do? Keep eyes outside as much as possibe, get a radar service from someone if you can. Train yourself to actually scan and not just aimlessly look outside, the RAF have a good system for this. Easier said than done.
As for gliders, I'm no expert, but if it's a good gliding day expect to see gliders operating up to cloudbase, whatever height that may be. In areas where there's wave expect to see them a lot higher than you might expect.
Personaly I find gliders quite hard to spot given that most of them are white, first contact is usually when they're turning and you get a glint of sunshine from them. To a certain extent you possibly are relying on the glider seeing you first.
There's a major gliding comp on at Lasham this week, 50+ gliders launching at a time, looks impressive on the radar and even more so when stood underneath watching
WF.
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If you are in touch with an ATC unit you could always ask for a Radar Information Service, even a Flight Information service from a radar unit will give you some traffic information. If that helps you build your confidence I cannot see a problem however i'm not to sure what your FI will think.
Having a good idea where the gliding sites are and checking your NOTAMS to see that there are no gliding competitions going on will help as well.
Having a good idea where the gliding sites are and checking your NOTAMS to see that there are no gliding competitions going on will help as well.
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Gliders will spend most of their time underneath cumulus clouds, if there are any. Fly in the blue bits between the clouds, and you minimise your chance of a close encounter. Fly above the cloud base, if you can - that'll keep you above 95% of gliders. Don't play too close to nice fluffy clouds - there might be a glider inside which could pop out of the side unexpectedly....
Alternatively, fly low. Away from gliding sites, you don't find many gliders below 2000ft. When soaring cross country, unless you're an expert that's the sort of height where you start accepting any kind of thermal, no matter how weak, just to stay in the air.
Also, when close to gliding sites, bear in mind that there will be more gliders upwind than downwind. The less experienced glider pilots don't stray too far downwind from home, in case they can't get back. And the more experienced ones don't stay close to home.
As for the rates of climb and descent - yes, they can be very high. When flying a high performance glider, the technique is to fly fast between thermals, then pull up and slow down when flying through them. The pull up is quite sharp, and the climb rate (for a few seconds) can be several thousand feet per minute. The rate of descent can be high too, but this happens much less often than it used to when I was an active glider pilot! My most shameful moment was beating the tug back to the ground from 2500 ft........
Keep your eyes open, and your wits about you and be a wee bit paranoid - but don't let it spoil your fun. The glider pilots will be looking hard for you, and aren't "out to get you"!
Final point - once you've qualified, go to a gliding club and have a go. After a couple of flights, you'll be able to predict their behaviour much better.
Alternatively, fly low. Away from gliding sites, you don't find many gliders below 2000ft. When soaring cross country, unless you're an expert that's the sort of height where you start accepting any kind of thermal, no matter how weak, just to stay in the air.
Also, when close to gliding sites, bear in mind that there will be more gliders upwind than downwind. The less experienced glider pilots don't stray too far downwind from home, in case they can't get back. And the more experienced ones don't stay close to home.
As for the rates of climb and descent - yes, they can be very high. When flying a high performance glider, the technique is to fly fast between thermals, then pull up and slow down when flying through them. The pull up is quite sharp, and the climb rate (for a few seconds) can be several thousand feet per minute. The rate of descent can be high too, but this happens much less often than it used to when I was an active glider pilot! My most shameful moment was beating the tug back to the ground from 2500 ft........
Keep your eyes open, and your wits about you and be a wee bit paranoid - but don't let it spoil your fun. The glider pilots will be looking hard for you, and aren't "out to get you"!
Final point - once you've qualified, go to a gliding club and have a go. After a couple of flights, you'll be able to predict their behaviour much better.
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Speedbird744
Don't let it get to you - just keep a good look out. I had a VERY close call a couple of years ago, but I figure that statistically it's unlikely to happen again, so I don't let it bother me.
Gliders can travel faster, climb higher and generally run rings around your average 152 / PA28! Coming down from altitude or racing between thermals a decent glider can do well over 100 knots.
Glider pilots generally have better visibility than sepls, with their bubble canopies - they usually spend more time looking outside, too!
Stay clear of launch sites - both cables and tug-glider combinations can be encountered to 2500' + aal.
To give you some feeling of what to look out for, to stay airborne, gliders use:
Thermals - relatively slow circling flight, usually under cumulus clouds that often appear in "streets" or lines downwind from where the heat source on the ground is. If you can see one glider, chances are there'll be more. They should all be circling the same direction if in the same thermal, BTW.
Ridges - local rising air caused by wind striking an escarpment and being deflected upwards. Often very close to (or at) the gliding site - e.g. Camphill, DLGC. Typically gliders are soaring at about 1000' above the ridge and a bit upwind.
Wave - this is ridge lift on a massive scale! Air is deflected upwards by a mountain range, e.g. Welsh mountains, Pennines, Scotland. Characterised by lenticular clouds forming (read your met books
). Fantastic rising laminar flow on the upwind side - violent rotor and downdraft effects downwind. Gliders fly in the rising air perpendicular to the wind and just go up, and up and up! I've had a height gain of 3000' and would have gone higher but for an airway above 
It's possible to get very high indeed - I don't know what the record is, but it is over 25000'!
So now you know what to look out for!
Good luck with your QXL - and don't wait till you've qualified to go gliding!
SD
Don't let it get to you - just keep a good look out. I had a VERY close call a couple of years ago, but I figure that statistically it's unlikely to happen again, so I don't let it bother me.
Gliders can travel faster, climb higher and generally run rings around your average 152 / PA28! Coming down from altitude or racing between thermals a decent glider can do well over 100 knots.
Glider pilots generally have better visibility than sepls, with their bubble canopies - they usually spend more time looking outside, too!
Stay clear of launch sites - both cables and tug-glider combinations can be encountered to 2500' + aal.
To give you some feeling of what to look out for, to stay airborne, gliders use:
Thermals - relatively slow circling flight, usually under cumulus clouds that often appear in "streets" or lines downwind from where the heat source on the ground is. If you can see one glider, chances are there'll be more. They should all be circling the same direction if in the same thermal, BTW.
Ridges - local rising air caused by wind striking an escarpment and being deflected upwards. Often very close to (or at) the gliding site - e.g. Camphill, DLGC. Typically gliders are soaring at about 1000' above the ridge and a bit upwind.
Wave - this is ridge lift on a massive scale! Air is deflected upwards by a mountain range, e.g. Welsh mountains, Pennines, Scotland. Characterised by lenticular clouds forming (read your met books
). Fantastic rising laminar flow on the upwind side - violent rotor and downdraft effects downwind. Gliders fly in the rising air perpendicular to the wind and just go up, and up and up! I've had a height gain of 3000' and would have gone higher but for an airway above It's possible to get very high indeed - I don't know what the record is, but it is over 25000'!So now you know what to look out for!
Good luck with your QXL - and don't wait till you've qualified to go gliding!
SD
Thread Starter
Thanks for all your advice, I'm feeling more relaxed already.
Although I think I'm going to buy one of these cheap mini TCAS systems used in General Aviation once I have my PPL and CPL. Anyone considered this? Around £500, any advice on the TCAS system at Transair? Or the Monroy ATD-200?
The scariest aspect of closing in on an aircraft is not knowing whether or not the other guy as seen you.
And I figure because gliders are climbing fast and flying aerobactics, the "relative constant bearing" is virtually non existent and you cannot predict where they will be next!
Although I think I'm going to buy one of these cheap mini TCAS systems used in General Aviation once I have my PPL and CPL. Anyone considered this? Around £500, any advice on the TCAS system at Transair? Or the Monroy ATD-200?
The scariest aspect of closing in on an aircraft is not knowing whether or not the other guy as seen you.
And I figure because gliders are climbing fast and flying aerobactics, the "relative constant bearing" is virtually non existent and you cannot predict where they will be next!
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Speedbird744,
I wouldn't place too much reliance on a TCAS system - even one that's not cheap relies on the other aircraft having a transponder which is switched on at the time.
A lot of aircraft don't have transponders. Having flown quite a bit around SE England with a TCAS-equipped aircraft recently I'm surprised at how many which presumably do have transponders don't seem to switch them on.
TCAS certainly can help, but since you only have to hit one aircraft in order to spoil your day you can't afford look out any less than you would otherwise do.
What TCAS does help with is telling you there's something out there that you hadn't spotted even when you have been looking. That happens alarmingly often.
I wouldn't place too much reliance on a TCAS system - even one that's not cheap relies on the other aircraft having a transponder which is switched on at the time.
A lot of aircraft don't have transponders. Having flown quite a bit around SE England with a TCAS-equipped aircraft recently I'm surprised at how many which presumably do have transponders don't seem to switch them on.
TCAS certainly can help, but since you only have to hit one aircraft in order to spoil your day you can't afford look out any less than you would otherwise do.
What TCAS does help with is telling you there's something out there that you hadn't spotted even when you have been looking. That happens alarmingly often.
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Hey guys, I'm a glider pilot and can agree with most things that have been said above. As long as both pilots use there common sense then the risk can be reduced as much as possible. Like has been said we have better visibility, we don't usually do erratic flying as it uses up alot of height, so the only time we do this is near to our airfields. Everything else about glider flying (thermals, wave etc) is all spot on, two weeks ago I had a great flight where I took a winch launch to 1500' and climbed to 13,500'
The other option if you encouter concentrations of gliders away fro a pukka gliding site is to descend a bit. They're normally trying to gain or keep height, and unless they've binned it they'll want to go up.
However, how low you go is the decision - if it's your solo nav speak to your instructor about this.
However, how low you go is the decision - if it's your solo nav speak to your instructor about this.
Why do it if it's not fun?
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I recall speaking to an air traffic controller a while ago. The controller told me about an "exchange" he did with some private pilots. The pilots visited him and his colleagues in their radar centre and spent some time there. Then they all jumped in their respective aircraft with controllers as passengers and went flying.
This controller said that it was one of the scarriest experiences he'd ever had. He was in a light aircraft, flying around at a few thousand feet, looking for traffic, and could maybe see two or three aircraft. Yet less than half an hour before, he'd been sat in front of his radar screen, and he knew there were dozens, if not hundreds, of aircraft that he couldn't see at all.
FFF
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This controller said that it was one of the scarriest experiences he'd ever had. He was in a light aircraft, flying around at a few thousand feet, looking for traffic, and could maybe see two or three aircraft. Yet less than half an hour before, he'd been sat in front of his radar screen, and he knew there were dozens, if not hundreds, of aircraft that he couldn't see at all.
FFF
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FFF wrote :
That's why I try to avoid flying at weekends, frightening
WF.
This controller said that it was one of the scarriest experiences he'd ever had. He was in a light aircraft, flying around at a few thousand feet, looking for traffic, and could maybe see two or three aircraft. Yet less than half an hour before, he'd been sat in front of his radar screen, and he knew there were dozens, if not hundreds, of aircraft that he couldn't see at all.
WF.
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FlyingForFun
I don't doubt you (or what the ATCO said) but perhaps this shows that most of the time the other traffic doesn't matter - it is too far away.
I know for sure lots of people flying in Class G don't use their radio; plenty of old timers do it to make a point as much as anything else. But in the end, all you would get as a "VFR" pilot especially on a sunny day is an FIS which is practically worthless (e.g. London Information is a waste of space for traffic avoidance purposes)
There is also a LOT of traffic very low down, say 1000ft agl, and without transponders on, the ATCO would see the dots but would have no idea where they are vertically. I often fly under a RIS and at e.g. FL50 most of the "unknown level" traffic is either invisible or it turns out to be something practically crawling along the ground...
The real solution (for a problem which doesn't really exist - en-route mid-airs are very rare) would be mandatory Mode C (for all aircraft with an electrical system) and traffic data uplink like they are getting in the USA. That would start a nice thread here I am sure
I don't doubt you (or what the ATCO said) but perhaps this shows that most of the time the other traffic doesn't matter - it is too far away.
I know for sure lots of people flying in Class G don't use their radio; plenty of old timers do it to make a point as much as anything else. But in the end, all you would get as a "VFR" pilot especially on a sunny day is an FIS which is practically worthless (e.g. London Information is a waste of space for traffic avoidance purposes)
There is also a LOT of traffic very low down, say 1000ft agl, and without transponders on, the ATCO would see the dots but would have no idea where they are vertically. I often fly under a RIS and at e.g. FL50 most of the "unknown level" traffic is either invisible or it turns out to be something practically crawling along the ground...
The real solution (for a problem which doesn't really exist - en-route mid-airs are very rare) would be mandatory Mode C (for all aircraft with an electrical system) and traffic data uplink like they are getting in the USA. That would start a nice thread here I am sure
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The real solution (for a problem which doesn't really exist - en-route mid-airs are very rare) would be mandatory Mode C (for all aircraft with an electrical system) and traffic data uplink like they are getting in the USA. That would start a nice thread here I am sure.
I saw, at the PFA Rally, a "low-cost" mode C transponder on the CAA stand. Nice idea, but only a two-year life before it would have to be thrown away and replaced by a Mode S.
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How much we see on radar is down to the positioning of the radar head, trust me we see a great deal more than some of the posts here may suggest. I am able to see large trucks on the M4 and ships in the Bristol Channel , so not seeing traffic at a 1000ft is really not an issue within the published LARS radius. Where there are problems with the siting of the radar head ATC units will provide services not below a certain altitude/level .
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Keef,
I thought we had until 2008.
I'm about to purchase a Mode C transponder for my new toy, and hope to get more that two years use out of it. Mind you, I only got 8 months use out of the last new aircraft before vandals destroyed it, so perhaps I shouldn't be worrying about the lifespan of the transponder.
I saw, at the PFA Rally, a "low-cost" mode C transponder on the CAA stand. Nice idea, but only a two-year life before it would have to be thrown away and replaced by a Mode S.
I'm about to purchase a Mode C transponder for my new toy, and hope to get more that two years use out of it. Mind you, I only got 8 months use out of the last new aircraft before vandals destroyed it, so perhaps I shouldn't be worrying about the lifespan of the transponder.
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Flower, I think they are suggesting it's the pilots who cannot see anything, but even then if you have a primary radar you are quite dependant on transponders being turned on.
Hairiest place I know is on final to Sedona in Arizona on a Sunday morning. People use runway 3 to land and 21 to depart, they are usually impatient to leave, and on short final it's like dodging missiles (except I don't know what dodging missiles is like, but I've seen James Bond movies). I've had to break off on final several times with planes shooting past me within a few hundred feet. Then you get people coming up from behind. Nasty place, not sure even the restaurant is worth it, needs a tower when the Sunday drivers are around.
Hairiest place I know is on final to Sedona in Arizona on a Sunday morning. People use runway 3 to land and 21 to depart, they are usually impatient to leave, and on short final it's like dodging missiles (except I don't know what dodging missiles is like, but I've seen James Bond movies). I've had to break off on final several times with planes shooting past me within a few hundred feet. Then you get people coming up from behind. Nasty place, not sure even the restaurant is worth it, needs a tower when the Sunday drivers are around.
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The point I was trying to make was that I can see practically everything, even if I had only Primary radar . SSR is a wonderful tool and without it my job would be extremely hard work but primary radar is more than adequate if required for me to be able to pass significant traffic information to anybody requesting a RIS.