Clear of Cloud and insight of the ground
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Clear of Cloud and insight of the ground
What eactly does this mean and for the legal peeps amongst us, how far can you push it and stay legal?
Picture the day, blue sky, sunshine and fluffy white clouds, just right for wheeling and soaring and slipping surley bonds etc round over and under.
Do you actually have to be able to see the ground all the time, ie if you wheel and soar round a particularly big blob and cannot see the ground for a couple of seconds as you go over the top, is that OK?
Later on, the gaps between the clouds reduce so that you are now over the top of the cloud, not in it, that would be wrong
but over a fairly stead block of cloud. Eight miles in the distance you can just make out the ground through a gap, a condition that is extant for the duration of your over the top flight, and through which yu later let down keeping clear of cloud so technically, the ground is in sight although the cloud beneath you, it's solid. Is this OK legally?
Don't bother about whether it is a good idea, safe etc etc, just is it legal assuming say a permit a/c and only a plain vanilla PPL.
Part 2 How can anyone proove that you did not have sight of the ground in such conditions. Wx aftercasts showing solid unremitting fog, cloud or whatever I accept would be easy, but what about 7/8th days, who can tell that you did see the ground
Just a thought, I myself would never do anything remotely questionable, this question is for the greater good!
Picture the day, blue sky, sunshine and fluffy white clouds, just right for wheeling and soaring and slipping surley bonds etc round over and under.
Do you actually have to be able to see the ground all the time, ie if you wheel and soar round a particularly big blob and cannot see the ground for a couple of seconds as you go over the top, is that OK?
Later on, the gaps between the clouds reduce so that you are now over the top of the cloud, not in it, that would be wrong
but over a fairly stead block of cloud. Eight miles in the distance you can just make out the ground through a gap, a condition that is extant for the duration of your over the top flight, and through which yu later let down keeping clear of cloud so technically, the ground is in sight although the cloud beneath you, it's solid. Is this OK legally?Don't bother about whether it is a good idea, safe etc etc, just is it legal assuming say a permit a/c and only a plain vanilla PPL.
Part 2 How can anyone proove that you did not have sight of the ground in such conditions. Wx aftercasts showing solid unremitting fog, cloud or whatever I accept would be easy, but what about 7/8th days, who can tell that you did see the ground
Just a thought, I myself would never do anything remotely questionable, this question is for the greater good!
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It is very clear - you must be in sight of ground at all times. However, anyone who has spun or looped an aircraft on a clear day with a PPL will have technically broken that rule.
As long as you can see ground - you are legal - doesn't matter how far ahead it is, whatever. No wx forecast will be used to 'prove' you didn't have sight of ground... can't be done.
You say the questions are for the greater good, yet I sense (using the force !) you wish to test your boundaries. Average lifespan for a non-instrument rated pilot in IMC is not long. Minutes, if that.
'Clear of cloud and in sight of ground' mean just that. Clear. In sight. Messing about with cumulus in your permit aircraft will have you scattered across the sky fairly rapidly whether you have the ground in sight or not !
Be safe. Know your limits. Clear means 'a long fekking way from', 'in sight' means 'a lot of ground'. Interpret how you wish
As long as you can see ground - you are legal - doesn't matter how far ahead it is, whatever. No wx forecast will be used to 'prove' you didn't have sight of ground... can't be done.
You say the questions are for the greater good, yet I sense (using the force !) you wish to test your boundaries. Average lifespan for a non-instrument rated pilot in IMC is not long. Minutes, if that.
'Clear of cloud and in sight of ground' mean just that. Clear. In sight. Messing about with cumulus in your permit aircraft will have you scattered across the sky fairly rapidly whether you have the ground in sight or not !
Be safe. Know your limits. Clear means 'a long fekking way from', 'in sight' means 'a lot of ground'. Interpret how you wish
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For the purposes of staying legal I'd say as a general rule of thumb then SCT cloud is fine, BKN you'd almost certainly be illegal - especially as holes have a nasty tendency to fill in just when you don't want them to (and it has happened to a few people).
The thing to remember also is you don't descend vertically, but horizontally - you might be able to see the ground 8 miles away in your example, but if it's a hole is it going to be wide enough for you to stay in visual contact with the ground and comply with the minima for distance away from cloud for VFR. You'd be surprised how big a hole needs to be to stay legal.
And as for 7/8 days - I think you can safely say that you wouldn't be legal - you couldn't be clear of cloud enough as I've pointed out above (and 7/8 can become 8/8's very quickly.
The thing to remember also is you don't descend vertically, but horizontally - you might be able to see the ground 8 miles away in your example, but if it's a hole is it going to be wide enough for you to stay in visual contact with the ground and comply with the minima for distance away from cloud for VFR. You'd be surprised how big a hole needs to be to stay legal.
And as for 7/8 days - I think you can safely say that you wouldn't be legal - you couldn't be clear of cloud enough as I've pointed out above (and 7/8 can become 8/8's very quickly.
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El desp.
Thanks for your comments, and for your concern about my life span. I didn't say it in the post, but just to put your mind at rest, I have appropriate badges to allow me to fly in cloud, and my permit a/c (not the one I go into cloud in!) will take about 12G to pull the wings off, if not more,
Thanks for your comments, and for your concern about my life span. I didn't say it in the post, but just to put your mind at rest, I have appropriate badges to allow me to fly in cloud, and my permit a/c (not the one I go into cloud in!) will take about 12G to pull the wings off, if not more,
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I can't remember the minima for horizontal and vertical separation from cloud... Chilli is probably correct for all practical purposes. If you want to do this, get an IMC or an IR.
A PPL/IR is not a mystical rating that involves complex rituals and scrawling pentagrams in the sand ! - it can be done for a lot less money than you think, on a single, and will improve your flying no end. I'm surprised more people don't go for it, especially the regular flyers.
(Edit - if you have an IMC, mate.. what's the problem ? As for 12g... I avoid convective build-ups by 10 miles in a 767.... your call !)
A PPL/IR is not a mystical rating that involves complex rituals and scrawling pentagrams in the sand ! - it can be done for a lot less money than you think, on a single, and will improve your flying no end. I'm surprised more people don't go for it, especially the regular flyers.
(Edit - if you have an IMC, mate.. what's the problem ? As for 12g... I avoid convective build-ups by 10 miles in a 767.... your call !)
but what's a few bumps now and then?
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Of course, if you were above 3000ft you would have to apply the 5/1.5/1 criteria. It's rather unlikely that you would be able to dance above the clouds, maintaining visual contact with the ground, below 3000ft.
On the other hand....................
On the other hand....................
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Ludwig,
If you and your oppo are off to Guinness-land later this summer with the 12G machines, pls drop me a mail telling me more about it.
I quite fancy both the trip and the reason for the trip as well as the craic.
A paddy Ryannair pilot with a leaky 2 seat machine wants to come along as well - hopefully seeing him Sunday.
Stik
If you and your oppo are off to Guinness-land later this summer with the 12G machines, pls drop me a mail telling me more about it.
I quite fancy both the trip and the reason for the trip as well as the craic.
A paddy Ryannair pilot with a leaky 2 seat machine wants to come along as well - hopefully seeing him Sunday.
Stik
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I'd say if you are on top as you describe ludwig, then you should be able to make it make down maintain vmc if your donk was to stop.
Seems sensible really doesnt it ? Makes you wonder about the whole single engine IFR thing over, e.g. the pennines really. I'd rather be in the irish sea i reckon.
Seems sensible really doesnt it ? Makes you wonder about the whole single engine IFR thing over, e.g. the pennines really. I'd rather be in the irish sea i reckon.
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Bit off thread but try this to see what 4/8 cloud looks like: get an A4 bit of paper, draw round it, then tear half of it into little pieces and put them into the A4 area. Not what you would think 
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, and Breighton of course 
