A day of glacier landings
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A day of glacier landings
Just spent a day as back seat passenger in a PA18 doing glacier landings at 7 different places across the width of the Bernese Oberland in Switzerland, the highest at 12,000 feet, where we stopped to have fondue on a primus stove in the hot sun. At another place there was a little gathering of glacier instructors going on and we had tea. Finally, finished up with a cup of coffee at a tiny establishment called the Yeti's Palace, a little hut perched on the edge of a 9,000 foot drop to the Rhone valley on the Tsanfleuron glacier, with a view straight across to Mont Blanc.
The fellow, foolishly many may say (and justifiably), even let me do four or five myself from the back seat. It's certainly an interesting technique which bears very little relation to any other type of landing you may do. Like anything in aviation, though, it looks hairy at first but you can see that with good training, experience, appropriate caution and a little common sense it isn't beyond the average Joe or Joe-ess.
FUN, FUN, FUN.
QDM
The fellow, foolishly many may say (and justifiably), even let me do four or five myself from the back seat. It's certainly an interesting technique which bears very little relation to any other type of landing you may do. Like anything in aviation, though, it looks hairy at first but you can see that with good training, experience, appropriate caution and a little common sense it isn't beyond the average Joe or Joe-ess.
FUN, FUN, FUN.
QDM
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Yep, landed at the Kanderfirn and then Petersgrat, to the West of Murren, then the Ebnefluh in the Oberland, just to the West of the Jungfraujoch, then the Moenchsjoch above and just to the East of the Jungfraujoch observatory, then Rosenegggletscher just between the Rosenhorn and Wetterhorn above Grindelwald, then back to the Ebnefluh and then over to the Wildhorn (steep, steep, steep -- this was the most amazing landing), then to the Tsanfleuron (Diablerets).
When I get them developed and scanned and can figure out how to post pics I will post some. I took over 100!
QDM
When I get them developed and scanned and can figure out how to post pics I will post some. I took over 100!
QDM
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Fun, isn't it!
With a bit of luck, I'll be doing the same on Saturday morning. As you say, it's not terribly difficult when the conditions are right, but there are an awful lot of things than can spoil your day if you're not careful.
The difficult part is judging whether it's safe to land when there are no tracks in the snow. Is the snow soft or hard? Will you be able to take off again? What is the wind speed / direction? (Very hard to judge sometimes, and wind effects just before touchdown can mess things up very quickly). Are there crevasses under the snow? The list goes on and on.
The only problem that has got me so far is getting stuck on the glacier. The skis froze to the snow while we were parked, and it took a good 30 mins hard work to free them...
And strenuous effort at 11000ft isn't fun. I watched someone get it wrong when landing on the glacier du Talèfre, near to Mont Blanc. They landed short, in heavy snow, slid up the slope for maybe 200ft, and stopped. There were 3 people in the plane, and it took them most of the day to drag it up the slope far enough to be able to take off again.
On a steep slope, the top of the landing is almost like a stall turn. Full power up the slope, try to judge the moment to start turning, then full rudder, opposite aileron and stick forward until you're facing downhill again. If the slope is steep enough, you can then cut the power to idle, slide down the slope and take off!
Everyone should try it if they get the opportunity!
With a bit of luck, I'll be doing the same on Saturday morning. As you say, it's not terribly difficult when the conditions are right, but there are an awful lot of things than can spoil your day if you're not careful.
The difficult part is judging whether it's safe to land when there are no tracks in the snow. Is the snow soft or hard? Will you be able to take off again? What is the wind speed / direction? (Very hard to judge sometimes, and wind effects just before touchdown can mess things up very quickly). Are there crevasses under the snow? The list goes on and on.
The only problem that has got me so far is getting stuck on the glacier. The skis froze to the snow while we were parked, and it took a good 30 mins hard work to free them...
And strenuous effort at 11000ft isn't fun. I watched someone get it wrong when landing on the glacier du Talèfre, near to Mont Blanc. They landed short, in heavy snow, slid up the slope for maybe 200ft, and stopped. There were 3 people in the plane, and it took them most of the day to drag it up the slope far enough to be able to take off again. On a steep slope, the top of the landing is almost like a stall turn. Full power up the slope, try to judge the moment to start turning, then full rudder, opposite aileron and stick forward until you're facing downhill again. If the slope is steep enough, you can then cut the power to idle, slide down the slope and take off!
Everyone should try it if they get the opportunity!
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AF,
I presume you're in the process of doing the winter add-on part of the French mountain rating? How many glacier landings do you have to do for that? In Switz they have to do 250 landings, have 200 hours total and the rating itself takes approx 20-25 hours to complete.
I'm keen to do the Swiss one, but it may be a fair while because a pair of Fernandes wheel skis costs about 25-30,000SFr fitted and I'd only do it if I had skis on my own aircraft. I'm planning, hopefully, to try and do the French wheel altisurface rating next summer. I will have to limber up on some of the Devon strips -- we have some short, one-way ones and landing off-airport in fields and things without wind info is useful training (we've had no windsock at Eggesford for four months since it blew away anyway).
Cheers,
QDM
I presume you're in the process of doing the winter add-on part of the French mountain rating? How many glacier landings do you have to do for that? In Switz they have to do 250 landings, have 200 hours total and the rating itself takes approx 20-25 hours to complete.
I'm keen to do the Swiss one, but it may be a fair while because a pair of Fernandes wheel skis costs about 25-30,000SFr fitted and I'd only do it if I had skis on my own aircraft. I'm planning, hopefully, to try and do the French wheel altisurface rating next summer. I will have to limber up on some of the Devon strips -- we have some short, one-way ones and landing off-airport in fields and things without wind info is useful training (we've had no windsock at Eggesford for four months since it blew away anyway).
Cheers,
QDM
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QDM,
From your flying in that area, did you happen to see if there was an airstrip at a place called Mannlichen (at the top of the cable car from Wengen)?
The piste maps have an aircraft symbol at that point - I presumed it was for emergencies only as during my three boarding trips there, I have not noticed anywhere flat, long and wide enough to land a light aircraft. However, my flying experience is limited to Cranfield and Blackpool, so am not really experienced in short field take offs and landings.
From your flying in that area, did you happen to see if there was an airstrip at a place called Mannlichen (at the top of the cable car from Wengen)?
The piste maps have an aircraft symbol at that point - I presumed it was for emergencies only as during my three boarding trips there, I have not noticed anywhere flat, long and wide enough to land a light aircraft. However, my flying experience is limited to Cranfield and Blackpool, so am not really experienced in short field take offs and landings.
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Hi QDM,
Yes, I am working on my "extension neige"! Unlike Switzerland there are no minimum requirements in terms of hours or number of landings - you just have to convince an examiner that you are good enough. But the average time to complete the rating is similar.
At the end of last April, I was told that I was ready for the test at which time I had around 60 landings on glaciers, and a similar number of landings on skis at altiports / altisurfaces. Unfortunately weather and holidays intervened, so I ended up taking the mountain rating in the summer, and now need to add the ski rating. If I don't manage it in March, I have booked 10 days flying in April. I'll go to the poor-house happy!
At the clubs I fly from, having the rating is does not imply an end to training and supervision. It just means that the instructors will let you fly alone or with passengers to designated sites when the conditions are right. You'd need a lot of experience in different conditions before they would let you head off alone after a snowfall.
Re buying skis.... I'd suggest you buy them 2nd hand in France. On the AFPM website, someone was has just sold a pair of Fernandes skis for a PA18 for a fraction of the cost you quoted. They were for sale for a very long time. It's a buyers' market!
Yes, I am working on my "extension neige"! Unlike Switzerland there are no minimum requirements in terms of hours or number of landings - you just have to convince an examiner that you are good enough. But the average time to complete the rating is similar.
At the end of last April, I was told that I was ready for the test at which time I had around 60 landings on glaciers, and a similar number of landings on skis at altiports / altisurfaces. Unfortunately weather and holidays intervened, so I ended up taking the mountain rating in the summer, and now need to add the ski rating. If I don't manage it in March, I have booked 10 days flying in April. I'll go to the poor-house happy!
At the clubs I fly from, having the rating is does not imply an end to training and supervision. It just means that the instructors will let you fly alone or with passengers to designated sites when the conditions are right. You'd need a lot of experience in different conditions before they would let you head off alone after a snowfall.
Re buying skis.... I'd suggest you buy them 2nd hand in France. On the AFPM website, someone was has just sold a pair of Fernandes skis for a PA18 for a fraction of the cost you quoted. They were for sale for a very long time. It's a buyers' market!
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Thanks for that, AF. I'll check out the AFPM website again. I did actually email that person a while ago, but they never replied, so maybe the skis had already been sold. Sounds like a good idea to get them 2nd hand. The problem, apart from the fact that I am rendering our entire family bankrupt with my flying obsession, I suspect is going to be getting them approved by the CAA.
Naturally, being reasonably capable at easy sites in ideal snow and weather conditions is a world apart from when things get tricky and you have to take things steadily.
I grew up in the Alps, have done a lot of off-piste skiing, a certain amount of ski-touring and know the geography of the Oberland like the back of my hand and I hope that would make it easier, along with being reasonably comfortable in the PA18. Experience in assessing snow conditions is just that, whether your skis are strapped to your boots or your aeroplane. It would be even more daunting if you didn't know what windcrust looks like from a distance or even what it was, where crevasses are likely to be found, what a Foehn actually implies, the difference in crust formation between Northerly and Southerly aspect slopes in the face of a persistent high pressure, the conditions which lead to an unstable snowpack and so on. I'm happy and comfortable in the mountains, have a good understanding of the risks inherent in them and know my limits in them, which are very, very great indeed. Without that, I don't think I'd even be contemplating this. There would be too many unknowns.
I don't know if I'm brave enough (quite possibly not), stupid enough (probably yes) and rich enough (almost certainly not) to do this, but I'm bloody tempted! Whatever happens, I'd aim to have at least another 2-300 hours in the PA18 before I start. It was certainly a big help yesterday not having to think about the aircraft and being able to concentrate exclusively on the flying and the terrain.
topunicyclist, I've only ever looked across at the Maennlichen, but I just looked at the 1:50,000 and you'd be doing well to land something up there, I suspect.
Combining flying and skiing -- omigod! That much fun has to be illegal.
QDM
Naturally, being reasonably capable at easy sites in ideal snow and weather conditions is a world apart from when things get tricky and you have to take things steadily.
I grew up in the Alps, have done a lot of off-piste skiing, a certain amount of ski-touring and know the geography of the Oberland like the back of my hand and I hope that would make it easier, along with being reasonably comfortable in the PA18. Experience in assessing snow conditions is just that, whether your skis are strapped to your boots or your aeroplane. It would be even more daunting if you didn't know what windcrust looks like from a distance or even what it was, where crevasses are likely to be found, what a Foehn actually implies, the difference in crust formation between Northerly and Southerly aspect slopes in the face of a persistent high pressure, the conditions which lead to an unstable snowpack and so on. I'm happy and comfortable in the mountains, have a good understanding of the risks inherent in them and know my limits in them, which are very, very great indeed. Without that, I don't think I'd even be contemplating this. There would be too many unknowns.
I don't know if I'm brave enough (quite possibly not), stupid enough (probably yes) and rich enough (almost certainly not) to do this, but I'm bloody tempted! Whatever happens, I'd aim to have at least another 2-300 hours in the PA18 before I start. It was certainly a big help yesterday not having to think about the aircraft and being able to concentrate exclusively on the flying and the terrain.
topunicyclist, I've only ever looked across at the Maennlichen, but I just looked at the 1:50,000 and you'd be doing well to land something up there, I suspect.
Combining flying and skiing -- omigod! That much fun has to be illegal.
QDM
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I believe there is a UK-registered PA18 on skis.... it visits Megève sometimes. Will try to find out who's it is. If there's one already, it should be a cinch to get CAA approva for another onel!
If you know the mountains well, you've cracked the hardest part. The most common cause of accidents is misjudging the snow conditions, followed by misjudging the wind. If you have a good idea what conditions to expect based on exposure to wind, sun etc., you will save yourself a good few hours training.
There's an elegant way to test the show conditions. You get into the landing configuration heading down your intended landing area, and gently kiss the surface with one ski. If you decide it's landable, you make a mark at your intended touchdown point, apply power and fly a mini-circuit, and land.
The chief instructor at Megève makes it look so easy. I generally do an impression of a barnstormer's "crazy flying" routine...
If you know the mountains well, you've cracked the hardest part. The most common cause of accidents is misjudging the snow conditions, followed by misjudging the wind. If you have a good idea what conditions to expect based on exposure to wind, sun etc., you will save yourself a good few hours training.
There's an elegant way to test the show conditions. You get into the landing configuration heading down your intended landing area, and gently kiss the surface with one ski. If you decide it's landable, you make a mark at your intended touchdown point, apply power and fly a mini-circuit, and land.
The chief instructor at Megève makes it look so easy. I generally do an impression of a barnstormer's "crazy flying" routine...
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QDMx3
I'm envious. Happy memories from too long ago.
AerBabe
Anyone can with an instructor or suitably rated pilot.
I did a few hours from the Meribel Altiport years ago - enormous fun and a wonderful experience. I've always meant to go back to do a proper course but never got around to it. QDM's posts may change that!
I'm envious. Happy memories from too long ago.
AerBabe
Anyone can with an instructor or suitably rated pilot.
I did a few hours from the Meribel Altiport years ago - enormous fun and a wonderful experience. I've always meant to go back to do a proper course but never got around to it. QDM's posts may change that!
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Erm... that was kind of what I meant...
I probably should have asked:
Was this with a friend, or with a school and instructor you can tell us details of.
I probably should have asked:
Was this with a friend, or with a school and instructor you can tell us details of.
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QDM x3
I was wondering why you had been a bit on the quiet side and absentish over the last week or so.
This reveals it all, you devil!
I take it you will be a good boy now and go back to the grindstone, as I have had to do while you were having what seems to have been too much of a good time.
FL
Envious? Green more like it.
Had a cunning plan to take family skiing this year in French alps and do some of this mountainflying. However somehow my wife got pregnant and hence any skiing is off the cards for at least another year.
Suppose you cant have it all.
FD
I was wondering why you had been a bit on the quiet side and absentish over the last week or so.
This reveals it all, you devil!
I take it you will be a good boy now and go back to the grindstone, as I have had to do while you were having what seems to have been too much of a good time.
FL
Envious? Green more like it.
Had a cunning plan to take family skiing this year in French alps and do some of this mountainflying. However somehow my wife got pregnant and hence any skiing is off the cards for at least another year.
Suppose you cant have it all.
FD
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Aerbabe
Ooops!
I thought I was answering your question.
I gave the Aero Club at Meribel Altiport as an example of a mountain-flying school with instructors who give lessons in glacier flying because I've flown there and could recommend it.
There's also a mountain-flying school at Courchevel, just over the mountain from Meribel, but they have a tarmac runway and, as far as I know, don't teach you to fly with skis so you can't land on glaciers. (Same applies to Samedin Airport down the valley from St Moritz in Switzerland.)
This website gives contact information for schools offering mountain-flying instruction in France.
QDM and others can give you alternative schools.
Apologies if that's not the sort of information you wanted.
Ooops!
I thought I was answering your question.I gave the Aero Club at Meribel Altiport as an example of a mountain-flying school with instructors who give lessons in glacier flying because I've flown there and could recommend it.
There's also a mountain-flying school at Courchevel, just over the mountain from Meribel, but they have a tarmac runway and, as far as I know, don't teach you to fly with skis so you can't land on glaciers. (Same applies to Samedin Airport down the valley from St Moritz in Switzerland.)
This website gives contact information for schools offering mountain-flying instruction in France.
QDM and others can give you alternative schools.
Apologies if that's not the sort of information you wanted.
Last edited by Flying Lawyer; 28th Feb 2003 at 00:40.
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AF, yes, if you can get the reg of the UK PA18 with skis that would be very useful.
Aerbabe, I actually went with Hans Fuchs (www.gletscherflug.ch) who is a PPL, but extremely skilled and enthusiastic glacier pilot. There is a good school here in Saanen, run by Ueli Roesti, who is one of the doyens of Swiss glacier flying. He has a PA18, Jodel D140, Pilatus PC6 and a Maule M7, all on wheel skis! There are a number of instructors around Switzerland. If you did want to do it in Switzerland I would ask Hans his advice. To get the actual rating you would need a Swiss validation on your licence. That's no big deal, but I haven't heard of any Brits with the rating so far. I guess there must be one or two.
FL, I can only urge you to do it again!
QDM
Aerbabe, I actually went with Hans Fuchs (www.gletscherflug.ch) who is a PPL, but extremely skilled and enthusiastic glacier pilot. There is a good school here in Saanen, run by Ueli Roesti, who is one of the doyens of Swiss glacier flying. He has a PA18, Jodel D140, Pilatus PC6 and a Maule M7, all on wheel skis! There are a number of instructors around Switzerland. If you did want to do it in Switzerland I would ask Hans his advice. To get the actual rating you would need a Swiss validation on your licence. That's no big deal, but I haven't heard of any Brits with the rating so far. I guess there must be one or two.
FL, I can only urge you to do it again!
QDM
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Flying Lawyer, no, my fault for not making it clear what I meant. A typical case of typing before engaging brain.
Thanks for the info and recommendations though, and QDM3. When (if?) I find a job I'll be off like a shot.
Thanks for the info and recommendations though, and QDM3. When (if?) I find a job I'll be off like a shot.
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Courchevel can now do ski training. They have a very nice ski-equipped Jodel D140 Mousquetaire. Courchevel itself is kept snow-free throughout the winter, though.
Meribel has been a bit quiet the last couple of years, which is a shame - it's a lovely spot to fly from. The most active training club is Megève, with 6 ski-equipped aircraft and 3 full-time instructors. It's busy, though - you need to book well in advance. For anyone wanting just a quick / cheap taster, they do pleasure flights around the Mont Blanc area in a ski-equipped Mousquetaire.
Meribel has been a bit quiet the last couple of years, which is a shame - it's a lovely spot to fly from. The most active training club is Megève, with 6 ski-equipped aircraft and 3 full-time instructors. It's busy, though - you need to book well in advance. For anyone wanting just a quick / cheap taster, they do pleasure flights around the Mont Blanc area in a ski-equipped Mousquetaire.
A bit of info regarding Méribel, and the French mountain requirements.
Méribel Altiport is at 5,700 feet, next to the piste and an 8 man chair, there are rentable apartments right next to it as well as a hotel. It is tarmac in summer and fully snow covered in winter.
The Méribel AeroClub is staffed full time with a good English speaking CFI and other instructors. They have 4 Jodel D140 Mousquetaire (180hp) with retracting skis and wheels, they cost approx Euro 135/hr solo or dual. The situation is fantastic with the ability to ski in and out of the Club, which is friendly and efficient – also quite busy at times.
Méribel, like all Altiports is ‘restricted’ and a checkout on skis is needed and then you can use Méribel for 6 months. The time it takes to learn depends on experience (tail wheel saves a bit of time), the weather and aptitude; it is not difficult and a solo in 2 to 5 hours is quite normal. Checkouts can also be done from Méribel for all the other places such as Courcheval, Megeve, Alpe D’Huez, Valmorel etc (this is much quicker after the first place is mastered – a few circuits normally). In the summer the checkout would be on wheels.
Flying to ‘Altisurfaces’ (glaciers and other non altiports) is done all the time from Méribel. To get a full Mountain Rating with Snow takes some time (see QDM’s reply) and the final 2 hour test is taken in the Club aircraft with a DGAC examiner – but the examiner costs nothing even if he comes in a DGAC aircraft from Lyon. This rating lasts indefinitely and allows you to fly to any Altiport or Altisurface when you want to (the snow rating includes the wheels rating). The non-snow mountain rating is much easier to do as there is less to learn and no glaciers are involved, only Altiports.
The Méribel web address is http://perso.wanadoo.fr/aero.club.meribel/
Hope this helps.
Méribel Altiport is at 5,700 feet, next to the piste and an 8 man chair, there are rentable apartments right next to it as well as a hotel. It is tarmac in summer and fully snow covered in winter.
The Méribel AeroClub is staffed full time with a good English speaking CFI and other instructors. They have 4 Jodel D140 Mousquetaire (180hp) with retracting skis and wheels, they cost approx Euro 135/hr solo or dual. The situation is fantastic with the ability to ski in and out of the Club, which is friendly and efficient – also quite busy at times.
Méribel, like all Altiports is ‘restricted’ and a checkout on skis is needed and then you can use Méribel for 6 months. The time it takes to learn depends on experience (tail wheel saves a bit of time), the weather and aptitude; it is not difficult and a solo in 2 to 5 hours is quite normal. Checkouts can also be done from Méribel for all the other places such as Courcheval, Megeve, Alpe D’Huez, Valmorel etc (this is much quicker after the first place is mastered – a few circuits normally). In the summer the checkout would be on wheels.
Flying to ‘Altisurfaces’ (glaciers and other non altiports) is done all the time from Méribel. To get a full Mountain Rating with Snow takes some time (see QDM’s reply) and the final 2 hour test is taken in the Club aircraft with a DGAC examiner – but the examiner costs nothing even if he comes in a DGAC aircraft from Lyon. This rating lasts indefinitely and allows you to fly to any Altiport or Altisurface when you want to (the snow rating includes the wheels rating). The non-snow mountain rating is much easier to do as there is less to learn and no glaciers are involved, only Altiports.
The Méribel web address is http://perso.wanadoo.fr/aero.club.meribel/
Hope this helps.
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topunicyclist,
It looks like this fellow does indeed fly off the Maennlichen in the winter:
http://www.swissaviation.ch/aktuell/19990910/port.htm
QDM
And here are all the European glacier flying links you could want:
http://www.gletscherflug.ch/glacierlinks.htm
QDM
It looks like this fellow does indeed fly off the Maennlichen in the winter:
http://www.swissaviation.ch/aktuell/19990910/port.htm
QDM
And here are all the European glacier flying links you could want:
http://www.gletscherflug.ch/glacierlinks.htm
QDM