LFAT - The Usual Chaos
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LFAT - The Usual Chaos
This morning was interesting. The weather started off looking good, but most of the TAFs had the vis dropping, and cloud rolling in during the course of late morning early afternoon.
We flew from the UK to Le Touquet, on an airways flightplan, and started our descent across the channel at around 11:30Z. London Control handed us to Lille Approach/Information (120.27 - responsible for inbound VFR/IFR aircraft from the Channel to LFAT) passing through FL90 with about 15 miles to run, and our morning got suddenly worse.
Despite forecasts, the weather at Le Touquet was quite poor. The ATIS hadn't really been updated to reflect reality... which was OVC012 and vis around 4000 metres at times (occasionally signficantly less).
As we spoke to Lille, he struggled through his dreadful command of English to put us into the stack at LT at FL50. He already had a SE England Flying School Cessna practising holds at 3000 feet.
So we entered the hold, and Lille struggled to make the school aircraft understand that practising holds in the deteriorating weather was not helping because there was "real" IFR traffic that wished to use the approach. After a few heavy hints, the school aircraft was cleared down the approach, and we dropped down to 3000 feet in turn, just sitting on top of the overcast. Meanwhile a Duchess, decided to "become" IFR and attempted to get vectors onto the ILS, only to be told of the queue. It finally got climbed to FL50 and took up the hold above us.
Down below, the usual variety of Brits continued to arrive from across the channel, claiming to be VMC at anything from 1200 feet to 3000 feet, with some flying "on top". The usual opener was a request for "Radar Advisory Service" or "Radar Information Service" (none of which exist in France). Some wanted vectors towards the field, and some wanted vectors onto the ILS although when questioned as to whether they were on an IFR or VFR flight plan, they went all shy.
Some tried to join the localiser from mid channel, and became cross when Lille explained that there was "real" IFR traffic using the procedure (the quality of English now deteriorating even from its previous low starting point). Some requested "IFR cloud breaks" and "vectors down to 1000 feet". Some requested IFR clearances to Calais to shoot the ILS there- and do you know what.... I would guess that just a few of them didn't have instrument ratings? Patronising perhaps, but easy enough to spot.
As a result, chaos reigned, with both the school aircraft's approach, and our own, being hazarded by pseudo IFR types blundering around the approach area instead of approaching by land from the North of the field, as per their VFR joining instructions. Our own approach was delayed for nearly 20 minutes after the approach of the school Cessna whilst Lille valiantly attempted to remove "VFR" traffic from the approach area, many of whom swore blind they were in "good VMC", despite being at levels we knew to be in solid cloud.
I have no idea if the SRG read this forum - but if they do, I would strongly urge that they take a day-trip to Le Touquet one marginal Saturday and start inspecting the crew-licences of arriving UK aircraft.
The combination of the poor English RT of the Lille ATCO, the indisciplined and dubious practices of many UK pilots, and the poor vis is a potential killer, and today is far from being a one off.
[/RANT]
Was anybody else there today, who feels like commenting?
We flew from the UK to Le Touquet, on an airways flightplan, and started our descent across the channel at around 11:30Z. London Control handed us to Lille Approach/Information (120.27 - responsible for inbound VFR/IFR aircraft from the Channel to LFAT) passing through FL90 with about 15 miles to run, and our morning got suddenly worse.
Despite forecasts, the weather at Le Touquet was quite poor. The ATIS hadn't really been updated to reflect reality... which was OVC012 and vis around 4000 metres at times (occasionally signficantly less).
As we spoke to Lille, he struggled through his dreadful command of English to put us into the stack at LT at FL50. He already had a SE England Flying School Cessna practising holds at 3000 feet.
So we entered the hold, and Lille struggled to make the school aircraft understand that practising holds in the deteriorating weather was not helping because there was "real" IFR traffic that wished to use the approach. After a few heavy hints, the school aircraft was cleared down the approach, and we dropped down to 3000 feet in turn, just sitting on top of the overcast. Meanwhile a Duchess, decided to "become" IFR and attempted to get vectors onto the ILS, only to be told of the queue. It finally got climbed to FL50 and took up the hold above us.
Down below, the usual variety of Brits continued to arrive from across the channel, claiming to be VMC at anything from 1200 feet to 3000 feet, with some flying "on top". The usual opener was a request for "Radar Advisory Service" or "Radar Information Service" (none of which exist in France). Some wanted vectors towards the field, and some wanted vectors onto the ILS although when questioned as to whether they were on an IFR or VFR flight plan, they went all shy.
Some tried to join the localiser from mid channel, and became cross when Lille explained that there was "real" IFR traffic using the procedure (the quality of English now deteriorating even from its previous low starting point). Some requested "IFR cloud breaks" and "vectors down to 1000 feet". Some requested IFR clearances to Calais to shoot the ILS there- and do you know what.... I would guess that just a few of them didn't have instrument ratings? Patronising perhaps, but easy enough to spot.
As a result, chaos reigned, with both the school aircraft's approach, and our own, being hazarded by pseudo IFR types blundering around the approach area instead of approaching by land from the North of the field, as per their VFR joining instructions. Our own approach was delayed for nearly 20 minutes after the approach of the school Cessna whilst Lille valiantly attempted to remove "VFR" traffic from the approach area, many of whom swore blind they were in "good VMC", despite being at levels we knew to be in solid cloud.
I have no idea if the SRG read this forum - but if they do, I would strongly urge that they take a day-trip to Le Touquet one marginal Saturday and start inspecting the crew-licences of arriving UK aircraft.
The combination of the poor English RT of the Lille ATCO, the indisciplined and dubious practices of many UK pilots, and the poor vis is a potential killer, and today is far from being a one off.
[/RANT]
Was anybody else there today, who feels like commenting?
Last edited by 2Donkeys; 15th Feb 2003 at 22:57.
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I've only been there in good VMC so I can't comment on specifically what happens there. However, it does strike me that some of those people that were "blundering down the approach" may well have been IMC rated (would many non-IMC rated pilots attempt it?). This doesn't mean what they were doing is allowed or legal (which obviously is not) or even sensible, but it does mean that they may have been capable of doing so. So what happens in the UK where they are allowed to do it? Is the main problem the controllers RT?
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Note that I did not say that they were "blundering down the approach"... suggesting that they were perhaps not very accurate in their attempts to shoot an ILS.
What I actually wrote was that they were:
"blundering around the approach area"
... meaning that they were flying in less-than VMC conditions in the vicinity of an active instrument approach, having either called Le Touquet late, or ignored instructions to join from the North of the field, where they would not interfere with the Instrument Approach.
This would be unacceptable in the UK, just as it is in France, and whilst the French controller was having difficulty making himself understood, this was as much a consequence of the pressure that he was being put under by the awful display of airmanship being fielded by the Brits.
Whereas in the UK, we have a somewhat lax set of rules over whether a flight declares itself to be IFR or VFR when outside controlled airspace, in France, IFR flights file flight plans, are flown by IR-holders and are under positive control.
I suppose the real message behind my rant is:
If you want to fly to France and the weather isn't really good enough, go somewhere else. Don't try announcing yourself to be on or near the localiser at LFAT on first contact, asking for half-baked pop-up IFR clearances that you are not legally permitted to accept.
I really want to see CAA Flight Standards on the ground taking a pro-active role in dealing with this. Put me on 10% of the fines collected, and I'll stand at the threshold taking reggies. I collected a few today.
What I actually wrote was that they were:
"blundering around the approach area"
... meaning that they were flying in less-than VMC conditions in the vicinity of an active instrument approach, having either called Le Touquet late, or ignored instructions to join from the North of the field, where they would not interfere with the Instrument Approach.
This would be unacceptable in the UK, just as it is in France, and whilst the French controller was having difficulty making himself understood, this was as much a consequence of the pressure that he was being put under by the awful display of airmanship being fielded by the Brits.
Whereas in the UK, we have a somewhat lax set of rules over whether a flight declares itself to be IFR or VFR when outside controlled airspace, in France, IFR flights file flight plans, are flown by IR-holders and are under positive control.
I suppose the real message behind my rant is:
If you want to fly to France and the weather isn't really good enough, go somewhere else. Don't try announcing yourself to be on or near the localiser at LFAT on first contact, asking for half-baked pop-up IFR clearances that you are not legally permitted to accept.
I really want to see CAA Flight Standards on the ground taking a pro-active role in dealing with this. Put me on 10% of the fines collected, and I'll stand at the threshold taking reggies. I collected a few today.
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I have flown into LFAT quite a few times --- both IFR and VFR --- and find the level of control there appalling. They very quickly become overloaded and go into "freeze" mode and are seemingly incapable of taking positive control of the situation and directing traffic. If you add to weak controllers the usual gaggle of UK visitors using the terminology the French controllers aren't aware of, e.g., "overhead at 2K descending dead side" you have a perfect formula for a disaster.
I have stopped flying to LFAT for exaclty this reason.
I have stopped flying to LFAT for exaclty this reason.
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It's been a long time since I flew into LFAT too, for the same reasons.
I think those who are IR rated and current should use the rating and file, flying half-and-half (mixing VFR and IFR) is dangerous.
Either you fly VFR in VMC or fly IFR in IMC. There is no harm in changing the flight plan (and mindset) in flight to IFR.
Lille Approach is easily overloaded, but think about it, how would the (mostly excellent) typical UK ATCO cope if the official aviation language would be french or spanish?.
I think those who are IR rated and current should use the rating and file, flying half-and-half (mixing VFR and IFR) is dangerous.
Either you fly VFR in VMC or fly IFR in IMC. There is no harm in changing the flight plan (and mindset) in flight to IFR.
Lille Approach is easily overloaded, but think about it, how would the (mostly excellent) typical UK ATCO cope if the official aviation language would be french or spanish?.
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I flew into LFAT on a Zulu flight plan yesterday, VFR to LFFF, then IFR to LFAT, which experience has taught me is the best way to prevent Lille diverting you elsewhere when LFAT goes below VFR minima. As I usually fly a twin I have found that on coasting out at Lydd attempting to contact Lille at that point gives sufficient time to get 'slotted in'.
Though yesterdays arrival at 10.30 Z was uneventful, about an hour later we were delayed on departure for 15 minutes by a stream of single-engined arrivals, which were most probably the cause of the understandable 'rant'.
I have previously called Lille ATC on being previously amateurishly handled by them, to be told with a typical Gallic shrug, 'well what can you expect when the 'B' team is on duty at the weekend. You can't say you have not been warned.
Though yesterdays arrival at 10.30 Z was uneventful, about an hour later we were delayed on departure for 15 minutes by a stream of single-engined arrivals, which were most probably the cause of the understandable 'rant'.
I have previously called Lille ATC on being previously amateurishly handled by them, to be told with a typical Gallic shrug, 'well what can you expect when the 'B' team is on duty at the weekend. You can't say you have not been warned.
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Only go anywhere near LFAT in conditions of good VMC (I am instrument rated) for all the reasons stated above.Problems especially occur when the forecast for the day was given as good the previous day and fails to meet expectations and when good weather in the Uk is not reflected in Northern France.Pilots seem reluctant to admit defeat!!.Contollers seem to get overloaded very quickly!! all in all best avoided!!.
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2Donkeys, sorry for misquoting you. At first glance it seems a minor thing, but "down" and "around" make quite a difference in this case. I guess I just misread it originally.
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I have only been twice and then only elected to go on working weekdays. Even then the last time I went in June last year there were only two a/c inbound at the time and there was still some confusion leading to me being legitimtely downwind right hand for 32 the then active r/w and the other fella being downwind left hand for 14. Suffice it to say he broke off and I landed had a nice time but decided not to return!
Plenty of other nice places to go for my hobby flying apart from the Le Touquet honeypot.
Andy
Plenty of other nice places to go for my hobby flying apart from the Le Touquet honeypot.
Andy
I recall a trip to LFAT about 18 months ago when a front was just clearing through east to west. We were in clear conditions off the coast VFR, but the weather passed to us included a visibility of about 3000 m. I asked for a SVFR clearance, and, after some exchanges that left me wondering if the controller understood the point, got one.
It strikes me that the conditions you describe were not conditions in which VFR was even possible in the zone. If the CTR were class D, the controller might bear some responsibility for admitting them, but it's class E. In theory if the flights are VFR they don't even have to talk to him as they plough through the IAP. Even so, I wonder if there's a French variant on ICAO Rule 4.2 that prohibits VFR arrivals with a (observed) vis < 5km or a cloud ceiling less than 1500 ft except with a (presumably SVFR) ATC clearance. Perhaps the French are less robust about enforcing this than some other states.
So I do think ATC at LFAT could occasionally be a little more assertive -- it would certainly increase my confidence. But I too have seen some lamentable airmanship from UK pilots at LFAT. So what is to be done to educate them?
It strikes me that the conditions you describe were not conditions in which VFR was even possible in the zone. If the CTR were class D, the controller might bear some responsibility for admitting them, but it's class E. In theory if the flights are VFR they don't even have to talk to him as they plough through the IAP. Even so, I wonder if there's a French variant on ICAO Rule 4.2 that prohibits VFR arrivals with a (observed) vis < 5km or a cloud ceiling less than 1500 ft except with a (presumably SVFR) ATC clearance. Perhaps the French are less robust about enforcing this than some other states.
So I do think ATC at LFAT could occasionally be a little more assertive -- it would certainly increase my confidence. But I too have seen some lamentable airmanship from UK pilots at LFAT. So what is to be done to educate them?
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So what is to be done to educate them?
On the other hand, I am equally sure that many of the offenders know that they are in the wrong, and are taking advantage of LFAT's legendary reputation for being lax on the vis and night rules (for departures as well as arrivals), and their tendency to shrug their shoulders in the face of a flow of English over the RT.
I am pretty sure that a ramp check or two on an appropriate day or three each year would do wonders. I will happily fly the CAA over for the occasion.
Last edited by 2Donkeys; 16th Feb 2003 at 19:56.
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LFAT has indeed the unlucky combination of an easily flustered ATC and a honeypot effect of Brits, Belgians and the occassional Dutchman.
It is not only in IFR conditions that things go t@ts up.
Remember Good Friday last April. Reasonable VFR albeit vis approx 8k; every man and their uncle in the circuit with at one point approximately 8 aircraft on a RH circuit and 3 LH with the slowest being a 150 and the fastest a Citation.
Complete RT chaos until an assertive replacement obviously kicked his predecessor out of the tower.
Calm and efficiency resumed and after holding for some time over Boulogne approached and landed uneventful (well only cut up by one 172) on base.
Methinks an accident waiting to happen over there on a good flying day. Make sure it isnt you!
FD
It is not only in IFR conditions that things go t@ts up.
Remember Good Friday last April. Reasonable VFR albeit vis approx 8k; every man and their uncle in the circuit with at one point approximately 8 aircraft on a RH circuit and 3 LH with the slowest being a 150 and the fastest a Citation.
Complete RT chaos until an assertive replacement obviously kicked his predecessor out of the tower.
Calm and efficiency resumed and after holding for some time over Boulogne approached and landed uneventful (well only cut up by one 172) on base.
Methinks an accident waiting to happen over there on a good flying day. Make sure it isnt you!
FD
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High Wing Drifter
Do they do VRIAB at LFAT as well
Seems to be the subject of the moment that activity. Sorry I asked about it in the first place. I certainly know what they are now though
Andy
Do they do VRIAB at LFAT as well
Seems to be the subject of the moment that activity. Sorry I asked about it in the first place. I certainly know what they are now though
Andy
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A year ago I stood in the bar at L2K with the usual bunch of Brits bemoaning the weather. The cloud was on the deck - I doubt the base was better than 500 feet and tops were reported at 3500 feet. There was a mixture of IMC holders and lapsed IMC holders and one or two who had done a bit of IMC training - about a dozen in all. The base lifted a little, maybe to around 750 feet - they all went except two. I think their logic was they were so close to the FIR so if anyone complained they would claim to have remained VMC beneath until the boundary. In fact they all climbed through the overcast on departure.
Now my own hobby horse is give the IMC holders European IR privileges or a sensible route to an IR, in my experience many IMC holders who are current and fly regularly IFR are very competent BUT the fact remains none of these pilots had the privileges to do what they did and that is not acceptable.
I went a bit later at the same time as a very experienced Yak delivery pilot and was in VMC at 1000 feet but with a solid overcast above. With more experience I personally would not choose to cross the channel so low again, but that is a personal view. A few are prepared to fly low or very low and stay beneath the weather particularly to L2K, but sadly some of these pilots don’t seem to have the experience to fit accurately into the traffic pattern when they arrive, which combined with the relaxed attitude of the L2K controllers is a recipe for a problem.
Now my own hobby horse is give the IMC holders European IR privileges or a sensible route to an IR, in my experience many IMC holders who are current and fly regularly IFR are very competent BUT the fact remains none of these pilots had the privileges to do what they did and that is not acceptable.
I went a bit later at the same time as a very experienced Yak delivery pilot and was in VMC at 1000 feet but with a solid overcast above. With more experience I personally would not choose to cross the channel so low again, but that is a personal view. A few are prepared to fly low or very low and stay beneath the weather particularly to L2K, but sadly some of these pilots don’t seem to have the experience to fit accurately into the traffic pattern when they arrive, which combined with the relaxed attitude of the L2K controllers is a recipe for a problem.
Why do it if it's not fun?
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Maybe we should be grateful that, in my experience, very few English pilots actually realise that they don't need to talk to anyone in Class E? Otherwise my money says these people would be flying around "VFR" in IMC, straight through the localiser, without talking to anyone, not realising they're doing anything wrong!
(Out of interest, probably a question for our Scottish pilots who do have Class E control areas to contend with - is it normal practice to talk to someone when VFR in these areas, even though it's not required? Just curious, not really relevant at all.)
FFF
--------------
(Out of interest, probably a question for our Scottish pilots who do have Class E control areas to contend with - is it normal practice to talk to someone when VFR in these areas, even though it's not required? Just curious, not really relevant at all.)
FFF
--------------
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Another amazingly timely PPRUNE thread from my point-of-view as I am planning my first trip to Le Touquet with a mate and 1 x pax in an Archer this coming Saturday.
What an eye opener these stories are - gving me pause for though. Surprised as I have already consulted the oracle, as it were, here on PPRUNE in another thread where over 75% of respondents to my poll suggested Le Touquet was better day trip destination than Abbeville or Eu Mers (see Vote for daytrip destination!).
Anyway, having read this, I will certainly be more careful and will be carefully watching the forecast for better-than-just-acceptable VMC before approaching LFAT...
Would Calais make a good alternative? (As opposed to aletrnate, which will be an inland airfield such as Abbeville to minimise risk of coastal wx affecting both primary and alternate airfields).
Best to all,
Andy
What an eye opener these stories are - gving me pause for though. Surprised as I have already consulted the oracle, as it were, here on PPRUNE in another thread where over 75% of respondents to my poll suggested Le Touquet was better day trip destination than Abbeville or Eu Mers (see Vote for daytrip destination!).
Anyway, having read this, I will certainly be more careful and will be carefully watching the forecast for better-than-just-acceptable VMC before approaching LFAT...
Would Calais make a good alternative? (As opposed to aletrnate, which will be an inland airfield such as Abbeville to minimise risk of coastal wx affecting both primary and alternate airfields).
Best to all,
Andy
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Andy,
Having returned from an entirely straightforward and crisis-free trip to L2K yesterday I was a bit surprised to read the horror stories here. Even though the vis wasn't brilliant in the morning there was no drama at all, nobody cutting each other up, nobody doing run-in and breaks, no plagues of locusts, just a nice peaceful airfield.
It's a quiet time of year so you should be absolutely fine this weekend.
Clearly the quality of the weather and the ATCO are big factors in determining what the environment is like around the airfield, but even on busy days it certainly can be well-managed over there. I flew in during their big airshow weekend last September when it was very busy and ATC were doing a great job getting everybody in without delay and without getting in each other's way.
Having returned from an entirely straightforward and crisis-free trip to L2K yesterday I was a bit surprised to read the horror stories here. Even though the vis wasn't brilliant in the morning there was no drama at all, nobody cutting each other up, nobody doing run-in and breaks, no plagues of locusts, just a nice peaceful airfield.
It's a quiet time of year so you should be absolutely fine this weekend.
Clearly the quality of the weather and the ATCO are big factors in determining what the environment is like around the airfield, but even on busy days it certainly can be well-managed over there. I flew in during their big airshow weekend last September when it was very busy and ATC were doing a great job getting everybody in without delay and without getting in each other's way.
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Andy
Take a good look at the airfield chart. The inlet makes an excellent poor viz orientation feature. As you have IR experience, the facilities available will add to your orientation. The runways are a factor of three long enough for small airplanes, they haven't had an incident for yonks.
However, serious sea fogs are a standard hazard for Le Touq, so read carefully the TAFs, look at the atlantic charts and take enough dosh to overnite if necessary.
Its only half hour to the UK coast so you can always divert back from whence you came.
Enjoy and report.
How did you get on with your Spanish trip last smmer?
Take a good look at the airfield chart. The inlet makes an excellent poor viz orientation feature. As you have IR experience, the facilities available will add to your orientation. The runways are a factor of three long enough for small airplanes, they haven't had an incident for yonks.
However, serious sea fogs are a standard hazard for Le Touq, so read carefully the TAFs, look at the atlantic charts and take enough dosh to overnite if necessary.
Its only half hour to the UK coast so you can always divert back from whence you came.
Enjoy and report.
How did you get on with your Spanish trip last smmer?