Run and break when will they learn ?
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drauk
You are quite right AAIB reports do not apportion blame they just report the facts.
However the run and break has no practical use outside the military and so is not part of the normal training for the PPL.
This makes it very hard for the PPL holder to know what to expect and how to best maintain an effective lookout in this situation add to this a slow and unmanoeuverable aircraft in the hands of a low time pilot and all is set for an accident.
However the run and break has no practical use outside the military and so is not part of the normal training for the PPL.
This makes it very hard for the PPL holder to know what to expect and how to best maintain an effective lookout in this situation add to this a slow and unmanoeuverable aircraft in the hands of a low time pilot and all is set for an accident.
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Wouldn't it be simpler if we were all just taught what a run and break manouevre looks like? Or perhaps took it upon ourselves to look it up in a book. Would seem to solve most of the problem without adding another restriction to the rule book.
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Wouldn't it be simpler if we were all just taught what a run and break manouevre looks like?
I've only ever heard it once, while student solo, and it was by some pillock in a PA-38 (seriously
). My response, while turning base, was "Aircraft calling initials, where are you and what are you doing?". Maverick decided to do a normal circuit at that point...
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It is of course an absolute fact that we all take risks BUT the very nature of aviation is to minimise any perceived risks. Now the R&B is a totally unnecessary risk to anyone in the circuit and as such should be banned absolutely. I have no objection to anyone performing whatever they like with their a/c but not when it puts others at risk and surely that is the real nub of this thread. If you want to play war games or pretend you are a FJ pilot the do it somehwere else or on MS Flight Sim
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We fly the run & break at JEFTS in light a/c (Fireflies) as do the various UAS's in their Grobs HOWEVER it is the responsibility of the aircraft joining the circuit to give way to traffic already in the circuit and if the circuit is busy we don't fly a run & break.
As flown in light a/c: fly in parallel to and slightly on the deadside of the active runway at cruise speed and circuit height. Call 'initials, break' at approx 3nm out, descend to 500' (or lower if not subject to rule 5) then if circuit is clear turn into the circuit over the runway threshold and land as usual. If traffic is in the circuit extend upwind and turn in behind them in a polite manner, cursing gently at being denied the chance to play the hooligan but not breaking in front of them. Good fun but not really on if others are in the circuit already.
As flown in light a/c: fly in parallel to and slightly on the deadside of the active runway at cruise speed and circuit height. Call 'initials, break' at approx 3nm out, descend to 500' (or lower if not subject to rule 5) then if circuit is clear turn into the circuit over the runway threshold and land as usual. If traffic is in the circuit extend upwind and turn in behind them in a polite manner, cursing gently at being denied the chance to play the hooligan but not breaking in front of them. Good fun but not really on if others are in the circuit already.
Last edited by DB6; 14th Feb 2003 at 20:57.
Mess Your Passage
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Workinghard
Once upon a time people were enthralled just at the sight of an aircraft leaving the ground
Now people are so spoilt that the romance and splendour of a golden age have been gobbled up by image seeking flying accountants.
You fly straight and level don't explore your personal envelope. Leave it to the people with the passion still in them.!
And people wonder why GA is dying?
Once upon a time people were enthralled just at the sight of an aircraft leaving the ground
Now people are so spoilt that the romance and splendour of a golden age have been gobbled up by image seeking flying accountants.
You fly straight and level don't explore your personal envelope. Leave it to the people with the passion still in them.!
And people wonder why GA is dying?
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Thanks for the "no blame in an AAIB report" clarification.
People seem to be saying that the problem with this move is that private pilots don't know where to look or what to expect, but again my attention is drawn to the fact that the Yak pilot didn't do what was expected - he turned left instead of right. (Just so happens it was over his house, though of course this was probably just a coincidence.) So even if people knew where he should have been based on the radio calls he made, he may well not have been there. Again, maybe I missing something here.
People seem to be saying that the problem with this move is that private pilots don't know where to look or what to expect, but again my attention is drawn to the fact that the Yak pilot didn't do what was expected - he turned left instead of right. (Just so happens it was over his house, though of course this was probably just a coincidence.) So even if people knew where he should have been based on the radio calls he made, he may well not have been there. Again, maybe I missing something here.
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And people wonder why GA is dying?
Nothing wrong with aerobatics, nothing wrong with exploring one's envelope, just do it with minimal (if any) risk to anybody else...please!
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I can’t believe some of the responses in this thread. There are rules and common sense which dictate how we behave in the circuit. If we all did a r&b that would be fun and may even work – but we don’t, so we should all do the same. Would Mr. Flash thank me for going round the circuit the wrong way or the wrong height?
Gerry
Gerry
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I have read this R&B stuff on many threads now and for what it's worth, which is probably the square root of jack **** it seems to me to be a fight bewteen the hawks and the doves.
People die flying a/c that's the way it is, they also die driving cars. So what. When you are going to go, that's it. The problem here is really about the penis extention aviators, " look at me I didn't make fast jets but hey, I can R&B" and the flat cap car coat aviators pootling about in their hired spam can going for a £50 cup of coffee for the third time this year. The sky is a big place and both types are a pain in the arse to the other. Personally I would ban anyone that does circiuts outside the airfield boundary and cannot maintain 150 kts to the threshold, but as some one french and famous said, I would fight to the death to maintain their right not to do so!.
We need to live together. If you are a spam can hirer at an airfield where people do r&B find out what it means, if you do r&b's remeber what it was like at your first away landing during your ppl training. Give a bit. Just because you are faster don't assume you are right. It really doesn't matter to anyone at all if you kill yourself, we don't give a ****, but it matters like hell if you kill someone else.
If you want to gang up against anything in the circuit, I suggest a campaign against bomber command circuits and microlights.
I know you will all agree.
People die flying a/c that's the way it is, they also die driving cars. So what. When you are going to go, that's it. The problem here is really about the penis extention aviators, " look at me I didn't make fast jets but hey, I can R&B" and the flat cap car coat aviators pootling about in their hired spam can going for a £50 cup of coffee for the third time this year. The sky is a big place and both types are a pain in the arse to the other. Personally I would ban anyone that does circiuts outside the airfield boundary and cannot maintain 150 kts to the threshold, but as some one french and famous said, I would fight to the death to maintain their right not to do so!.
We need to live together. If you are a spam can hirer at an airfield where people do r&B find out what it means, if you do r&b's remeber what it was like at your first away landing during your ppl training. Give a bit. Just because you are faster don't assume you are right. It really doesn't matter to anyone at all if you kill yourself, we don't give a ****, but it matters like hell if you kill someone else.
If you want to gang up against anything in the circuit, I suggest a campaign against bomber command circuits and microlights.
I know you will all agree.
DB6 the only reason you are doing R & B in a light aircraft is cos you are training bods who will be doing it for real in jets.
IMHO the run & break has no place at a civilian airfield full stop. It is simply a pose. A Yak 52 is fully capable of flying a standard circuit as is a Delphin given reasonable forward planning. If a person can't plan that far ahead then they shouldn't have the stick in their hands. I fly for fun, I enjoy a fast low pass (well slow pass in an Auster) but I don't enjoy unexpected manouvers when I'm getting ready to land.
IMHO the run & break has no place at a civilian airfield full stop. It is simply a pose. A Yak 52 is fully capable of flying a standard circuit as is a Delphin given reasonable forward planning. If a person can't plan that far ahead then they shouldn't have the stick in their hands. I fly for fun, I enjoy a fast low pass (well slow pass in an Auster) but I don't enjoy unexpected manouvers when I'm getting ready to land.
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Flash - Perhaps you should read again what I actually said and not make assumptions. The consensus is, I believe, that pilots may do what they wish within the law AND without endagering others. Do not try and emulate the military in a civilian circuit; as has been seen this can lead to tragedy and more sadly, tragedy for those on the receiving end of a quite dubious practice. I have no idea of your kind of flying or what you do to explore your "personal envelope" but what I do know is that if you "explore" in any way that presents an unnecessary or unknown danger to others then you have no business being in control of any aircraft. Perhaps we should start a thread listing those airfields that allow such actions as R&B and then the rest of us can avoid and see what happens when economics takes over.
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Interesting thread.
It seems to me that the rules of the air require a pilot to:
So.... if there is any other traffic at all, a run-and-break is out.
I never have bought the various arguments used relating to the speed and handling characteristics of jets. Perhaps I have been doing visual joins all wrong in my Citation all this time
It seems to me that the rules of the air require a pilot to:
Without prejudice to the provisions of rule 39,a flying machine,glider or airship while flying in the vicinity of what the commander of the aircraft knows or ought reasonably to know to be an aerodrome or moving on an aerodrome,shall unless,in the case of an aerodrome having an air traffic control unit that unit otherwise authorises:
(a)conform to the pattern of traffic formed by other aircraft intending to land at that aerodrome,or keep clear of the airspace in which the pattern is formed;and
(b)make all turns to the left unless ground signals otherwise indicate.
(a)conform to the pattern of traffic formed by other aircraft intending to land at that aerodrome,or keep clear of the airspace in which the pattern is formed;and
(b)make all turns to the left unless ground signals otherwise indicate.
I never have bought the various arguments used relating to the speed and handling characteristics of jets. Perhaps I have been doing visual joins all wrong in my Citation all this time
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Run & Break Airfields
I feel very strongly about the issues raised on another thread. I feel very strongly that I do not want my safety or the safety of fellow aviators or the public in general put at risk for the perceived "fun" by a few selfish pilots. I feel very strongly that this is the kind of irresponsible behaviour that brings GA into disrepute. I think it would be interesting therefore to list any airfields that allow such circuit joins so that those of us wish may avoid them totally.
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LowNSlow,
Agree with you 100% I cannot see any requirement for or virtue in a R&B in a civillian environment or in a light aircraft save for those being used for military training. The R&B is a military manouvre designed for use during conflict when a returning aircraft may be damaged or under threat and as such is practiced during peacetime. It is not, however the only manner in which a military jet can approach and land hence a standard circuit may be flown or an SRA or the like performed.
In a civilian environment what purpose is served by an R&B? If you want to throw an aircraft around you have plenty of sky away from the circuit in which to do it. If you want to pose and/or fulfill some sort of military wannabe fantasy then IMHO you shouldn't be in an aircraft in the first place.
I have flown run in and breaks in military jets and I'll admit there is a degree of fun in them, especially a formation break but then there are a lot of things that are fun in a jet that simply don't translate into a piston single no matter how macho its pilot thinks his mount is. I also wonder how many non-military pilots know what a proper R&B is - most light aircraft will run out of speed too quickly to perform the manouvre properly. The fairly constant curve allowing the speed to bleed off simply turns into a shortened circuit in most light aircraft.
Agree with you 100% I cannot see any requirement for or virtue in a R&B in a civillian environment or in a light aircraft save for those being used for military training. The R&B is a military manouvre designed for use during conflict when a returning aircraft may be damaged or under threat and as such is practiced during peacetime. It is not, however the only manner in which a military jet can approach and land hence a standard circuit may be flown or an SRA or the like performed.
In a civilian environment what purpose is served by an R&B? If you want to throw an aircraft around you have plenty of sky away from the circuit in which to do it. If you want to pose and/or fulfill some sort of military wannabe fantasy then IMHO you shouldn't be in an aircraft in the first place.
I have flown run in and breaks in military jets and I'll admit there is a degree of fun in them, especially a formation break but then there are a lot of things that are fun in a jet that simply don't translate into a piston single no matter how macho its pilot thinks his mount is. I also wonder how many non-military pilots know what a proper R&B is - most light aircraft will run out of speed too quickly to perform the manouvre properly. The fairly constant curve allowing the speed to bleed off simply turns into a shortened circuit in most light aircraft.
Mess Your Passage
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If you send me a private message as im not going to start naming publically i can let you know of three where i am actually asked if i would'nt mind doing a run.
Perhaps you should stay in your car it's dangerous outside.
Perhaps you should stay in your car it's dangerous outside.
Last edited by Flash0710; 15th Feb 2003 at 14:47.
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Of course there's no requirement, but it's fun and completely safe in appropriate circumstances.
As for old WorryHard ... "the R&B is a totally unnecessary risk to anyone in the circuit and as such should be banned absolutely." Why not go further and get the CAA to make it illegal?
Don't come to Duxford - you wouldn't enjoy it very much.
The important factors are time and place. A busy circuit when other traffic may be endangered is obviously not an appropriate time or place, but a total ban is silly.
Flash - I know what you mean.
As for old WorryHard ... "the R&B is a totally unnecessary risk to anyone in the circuit and as such should be banned absolutely."
Why not go further and get the CAA to make it illegal?Don't come to Duxford - you wouldn't enjoy it very much.
The important factors are time and place. A busy circuit when other traffic may be endangered is obviously not an appropriate time or place, but a total ban is silly.
Flash - I know what you mean.
Last edited by Flying Lawyer; 15th Feb 2003 at 16:56.
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LowNSlow, quite so - and we can only just manage them in a Firefly. We don't do them elsewhere and I agree with others who say they don't really have a place at most civilian airfields (not all). My post was really just to NB the fact that basically with anyone else in the circuit a run & break is not advisable, and certainly not if others aren't expecting it
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I think it would be interesting therefore to list any airfields that allow such circuit joins so that those of us wish may avoid them totally.
