Cancelling IFR and proceeding VFR in IMC in EU
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Cancelling IFR and proceeding VFR in IMC in EU
Hello guys and gals,
Recently i progressed to a multipilot (single pilot crtfd.) multiengine airplane in Europe. The whole thing is in the start up phase and is limited to private flying. Our base airfield has no instrument approach but most of our flying is IFR except for the final portion of flight where we change to VFR for landing. All seems good except for one thing, I have noticed on so many occasions , that european ga pilots tend to feel comfortable cancelling IFR in IMC and descending up to 200-300 feet to 'break' overcast.
When i question this dubious practice i always get a bunch of arguments in return such as: i've done that a million times ; i'm was born here and i know the terrain ; my airplane has top notch g1000, honeywell or proline 21; don't be such a pussy.
I will never compromise on flight safety but my stubbornness is working agains me and i gain reputation of a coward pilot.
So what do you guys think? Am I exaggerating ?
Recently i progressed to a multipilot (single pilot crtfd.) multiengine airplane in Europe. The whole thing is in the start up phase and is limited to private flying. Our base airfield has no instrument approach but most of our flying is IFR except for the final portion of flight where we change to VFR for landing. All seems good except for one thing, I have noticed on so many occasions , that european ga pilots tend to feel comfortable cancelling IFR in IMC and descending up to 200-300 feet to 'break' overcast.
When i question this dubious practice i always get a bunch of arguments in return such as: i've done that a million times ; i'm was born here and i know the terrain ; my airplane has top notch g1000, honeywell or proline 21; don't be such a pussy.
I will never compromise on flight safety but my stubbornness is working agains me and i gain reputation of a coward pilot.
So what do you guys think? Am I exaggerating ?
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Sat at the airfield the other day when a piston single appeared through the 150ft AGL overcast, landed, dropped off a couple of passengers, then disappeared off again into the murk for the next leg of its "private" "VFR" flight.
Unlike your case they never had to cancel IFR as the trip was flown on a VFR flight plan .... The whole experience no doubt validated the pilot's belief that it was perfectly safe, and I have no doubt the pax think he is a great pilot as he is able to get them to their destination whatever the weather .....
Unlike your case they never had to cancel IFR as the trip was flown on a VFR flight plan .... The whole experience no doubt validated the pilot's belief that it was perfectly safe, and I have no doubt the pax think he is a great pilot as he is able to get them to their destination whatever the weather .....
Avoid imitations
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Unlike your case they never had to cancel IFR as the trip was flown on a VFR flight plan .... The whole experience no doubt validated the pilot's belief that it was perfectly safe, and I have no doubt the pax think he is a great pilot as he is able to get them to their destination whatever the weather .....
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Two words come to mind - Graham Hill.
If my ageing memory serves me correctly, that accident put an end (in the UK at least) to ATC collusion in what was then a rather too common practice.
Back in the '80's, I recall (from Dutch Mil at MSA in solid IMC in the Amsterdam TMA) "I can't clear you any lower, but I have no problem with you descending to 800", which was enough for me to find a hole & duck into Hilversum, saving a divert.
Nowadays, descent below MSA whilst not on a published procedure would be one risk too many for me (genuine emergencies excepted). With old age comes a greater appreciation of the risks of confirmation bias - it's killed a lot of pilots.
If my ageing memory serves me correctly, that accident put an end (in the UK at least) to ATC collusion in what was then a rather too common practice.
Back in the '80's, I recall (from Dutch Mil at MSA in solid IMC in the Amsterdam TMA) "I can't clear you any lower, but I have no problem with you descending to 800", which was enough for me to find a hole & duck into Hilversum, saving a divert.
Nowadays, descent below MSA whilst not on a published procedure would be one risk too many for me (genuine emergencies excepted). With old age comes a greater appreciation of the risks of confirmation bias - it's killed a lot of pilots.
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Cows getting bigger
At least you can call(or think) your colleague an idiot , but in my case i have a buddy attude in the cockpit and we are both captains. It makes things a lot worse and from my point of view its better to live with an idiot that to crash with a friendly menace. And of course , my boss will respect the one who shows visible results , not some vague flight safety captain-geek.
Sillert, V.I.
Since we don't have a published procedure when would it be safe to descent below MSA? Perfect vmc in our latitude is a very rare thing, usually its more like BKN 800-1500 and we have to cancel IFR at about 3000 feet. I would go alternate unless i can find a lage hole to duck(its legal, but is it safe?) , but my colleague will not hesitate to try it in OVC when he is flying left seat. A few weeks ago he was busted diving trough OVC by caa inspector but he got out dry with only a warning.
I work with an idiot like that. I often wonder why the company lets him get away with it; probably because he gets the job done.
Sillert, V.I.
Since we don't have a published procedure when would it be safe to descent below MSA? Perfect vmc in our latitude is a very rare thing, usually its more like BKN 800-1500 and we have to cancel IFR at about 3000 feet. I would go alternate unless i can find a lage hole to duck(its legal, but is it safe?) , but my colleague will not hesitate to try it in OVC when he is flying left seat. A few weeks ago he was busted diving trough OVC by caa inspector but he got out dry with only a warning.
What do your rules say about descent below MSA when in IMC?
Aside from that I think any pilot that blatantly descends in IMC below MSA without using a properly promulgated instrument approach shouldn't be allowed to hold a pilots licence.
Just because he/she has always done it dosen't make it a safe operating procedure.
If the antics you describe were acceptable why on earth would there be a need for all those expensive to design Instrument Approach Procedures?
Legally never ever.
Anyone who condones this sort of thing should never be allowed to be in charge of any flying operation.
He deserved much much more than a warning. The fact he even got a warning gives some idea it's not legal to descend as you describe.
Perhaps it's just best to walk away from such nonsense.
Aside from that I think any pilot that blatantly descends in IMC below MSA without using a properly promulgated instrument approach shouldn't be allowed to hold a pilots licence.
Just because he/she has always done it dosen't make it a safe operating procedure.
If the antics you describe were acceptable why on earth would there be a need for all those expensive to design Instrument Approach Procedures?
Since we don't have a published procedure when would it be safe to descent below MSA?
my boss will respect the one who shows visible results
A few weeks ago he was busted diving trough OVC by caa inspector but he got out dry with only a warning.
Perhaps it's just best to walk away from such nonsense.
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What DirtyProp says.
To quote a famous UK politician (Enoch Powell) - "I have never taken disagreement as an indication that I am wrong."
The fact that someone has done it a million times does not make it a good idea.
Phil
To quote a famous UK politician (Enoch Powell) - "I have never taken disagreement as an indication that I am wrong."
The fact that someone has done it a million times does not make it a good idea.
Phil
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I work with an idiot like that.
Last company I worked for would have fired you the moment you name other crew members idiot.
Yes, there are some "creative" moments in certain EU countries when it comes to Cancel IFR and GA, but they should be limited to pure private leisure pilots gambling with their life. There also are some dubious flights declared "private", but in reality something sneaking hiding else. When it comes to commercial flights, including company flights, so BA not GA, you should walk away the second they do low level scud running or flying VFR in IMC.
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Last company I worked for would have fired you the moment you name other crew members idiot.
I would have hoped that in this day and age - companies, no matter how small would at least listen to concerns and act upon it appropriately.
Also - you say "we are both captains" I assume that before the flight you assign each other flight crew duties (who is the P1 who is the P2), also never forget that even if you are P2 - if you believe that the P1 is doing something incorrectly, you DO have the right to - (and ideally MUST) highlight your concern to the P1 - and if he/she does not respond appropriately and a safety risk is not averted, you have the duty to take over the controls and bring the plane back to safety.
There is a reason WHY the MSA is 3,000' and WHY you cannot continue to your destination under IFR. If this is a common occurrence, as a company, I would seriously consider why I am operating from an airport that isn't able to cater for the types of flights that the company wishes to make.
If the location cannot be changed then the consideration of requesting a quote to setup a GNSS approach, and getting the airfield/other users to join in on footing the bill (which is getting cheaper) might be the only way forward!
