Compton Abbas and S.O.J.'s
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Compton Abbas and S.O.J.'s
Hi, I am planning a trip to Compton Abbas next week and wondered if anyone had any tips/advice for this airfield. I have heard that it is liable to x-winds fairly frequently.
Also, I have never done a standard overhead join, I believe that it goes like this:
If approaching from deadside:
Fly across end of active runway, Fly 1000' above downwind leg and turn to cross above the threshold of the active runway.
Then descend deadside, flying then across the end of the active runway at circuit height and then downwind, etc.
If approaching from circuit side:
Fly 1000' above circuit height, across threshold of active runway, then descend dead side. Then fly across end of active runway at circuit height and fly downwind, etc.
Have I got this straight?
If I hadn't asked anyone this is how I would have done it. Any comments?
Thanks in advance,
Tri
Also, I have never done a standard overhead join, I believe that it goes like this:
If approaching from deadside:
Fly across end of active runway, Fly 1000' above downwind leg and turn to cross above the threshold of the active runway.
Then descend deadside, flying then across the end of the active runway at circuit height and then downwind, etc.
If approaching from circuit side:
Fly 1000' above circuit height, across threshold of active runway, then descend dead side. Then fly across end of active runway at circuit height and fly downwind, etc.
Have I got this straight?
If I hadn't asked anyone this is how I would have done it. Any comments?
Thanks in advance,
Tri
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Can I ask why you have never done an overhead join?
I suggest you take a ride with an instructor first to get the hang of it because you could easily lose the plot if you have 6 planes battling for position in the overhead.
Walt,,
I suggest you take a ride with an instructor first to get the hang of it because you could easily lose the plot if you have 6 planes battling for position in the overhead.
Walt,,
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Not wishing to sound like I'm flaring up but.......
Surely for a moderator that was a slightly unecessary response to what I believe was a perfectly good question.
Trislander wants an honest answer to an honest question and I wouldn't be a bit surprised if he/she feels a bit miffed by the response.
Good luck Trislander, hope the weather is good for you and X-winds aren't a prob.
Surely for a moderator that was a slightly unecessary response to what I believe was a perfectly good question.
Trislander wants an honest answer to an honest question and I wouldn't be a bit surprised if he/she feels a bit miffed by the response.
Good luck Trislander, hope the weather is good for you and X-winds aren't a prob.
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Try Q and A 21 on:
GA FAQs
ps: Compton Abbas - well worth a visit for anyone - beautiful setting, good attitudes, pleasant people, and open til Sunset too!
GA FAQs
ps: Compton Abbas - well worth a visit for anyone - beautiful setting, good attitudes, pleasant people, and open til Sunset too!
Last edited by Irv; 2nd Jun 2002 at 19:56.
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Well, there's a bit of "quis custodiet ipsos custodes?" for Big Red L, but I don't think that his observation, which is partly tongue in cheek in any event, is inappropriate. It does seem surprising that a PPL can never have done an overhead join. Are there any instructors here who would train a student without including this standard procedure?
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Inadequate PPL Intruction?
IMHO it seems that Trislander may have been poorly served by the school, where he did his PPL training.
I trained for the dear old, much lamented, CAA-PPL.
But I assumed that the JAA-PPL course, covered ALL forms of circuit join.
Is this not so?
I trained for the dear old, much lamented, CAA-PPL.
But I assumed that the JAA-PPL course, covered ALL forms of circuit join.
Is this not so?
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Alright, to start with I flew all my training out of Exeter and any rejoins in the over head were at request of myself or my instructor, this was then given a go or not, depending on how busy the circuit was, normally all joins were downwind l/r, base, or straight in. So I can understand a student going through training and not getting to perform any, if they fly out of a busy airfield.
Personally I would not like to go alone for the first couple and would advise taking a PPL mate or an instructor to talk you through what is going on.
Compton Abbas is a cracking little place. Nice cafe
Just check pooleys (not got one to hand at moment). R/H circuits on 26?(or 27). Be careful if coming from west as you can easily lose sight of field turning right in the overhead. Loads of trees and stuff deadside helps to hide it.
Also watch the procedures for not overflying local villages, loads of them around.
Lastly on approach to the westerly, if late in afternoon, sun low, trees high! But if I could handle it as a student it probably ain't as bad as I make it out to be
Go for it and enjoy
Personally I would not like to go alone for the first couple and would advise taking a PPL mate or an instructor to talk you through what is going on.
Compton Abbas is a cracking little place. Nice cafe
Just check pooleys (not got one to hand at moment). R/H circuits on 26?(or 27). Be careful if coming from west as you can easily lose sight of field turning right in the overhead. Loads of trees and stuff deadside helps to hide it.
Also watch the procedures for not overflying local villages, loads of them around.
Lastly on approach to the westerly, if late in afternoon, sun low, trees high! But if I could handle it as a student it probably ain't as bad as I make it out to be
Go for it and enjoy
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Cessna Boy, I agree with you that many larger/busy airfields require VFR traffic to join downwind, or base leg, or straight in.
But, on the other hand, many small UK airfields still use overhead/deadside joins. So I assumed that instructors would make sure that their students are familiar with ALL of these joins, long before that let them lose on QXCs.
Any instructors out there, like to comment?
But, on the other hand, many small UK airfields still use overhead/deadside joins. So I assumed that instructors would make sure that their students are familiar with ALL of these joins, long before that let them lose on QXCs.
Any instructors out there, like to comment?
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We don't know the licence was gained in the UK do we? I'd guess either USA (SA has overhead joins) or learned at a big UK 'we like training people to CPL' school.
I used to train people at Southampton, (no overheads) and made sure that my students regularly visited small airfields with overhead joins (eg: Compton Abbas) and ALSO non-standard joins (eg: Thruxton or Old sarum on weekdays).
However, others at the time used to use Bristol and Exeter or even Bournemouth for land aways - not really a different experience from the home field and in my opinion, letting the student down badly. That was some time ago - don't know what happens now.
At the time it was usually instructors who had never enjoyed a day's fun flying in their lives - started to learn, went straight from PPL to IMC to BCPL and Instructor ticket and were aiming at CPL and the flight deck. They weren't interested in anywhere else but bigger commercial airports, so they inflicted them on their students and left them with problems when they got their PPLs. I sometimes wondered if the instructors had ever visited a small airfield
The opposite is of course also true nowadays - pupils kept well away from controlled airspace whilst learning, then everyone wonders why they screw up as PPLs when forced to visit at some later date alone.
I had one student who was slow to think out overhead joins and needed to practice, so we used Thorney Island disused without getting low - 3 runways = 6 directions = 12 circuits - I would just 'call one' at random as we passed nearby, and the student had to do the join as far as halfway round the deadside descent, when it was obvious it was going ok. Soon got the hang of it.
I used to train people at Southampton, (no overheads) and made sure that my students regularly visited small airfields with overhead joins (eg: Compton Abbas) and ALSO non-standard joins (eg: Thruxton or Old sarum on weekdays).
However, others at the time used to use Bristol and Exeter or even Bournemouth for land aways - not really a different experience from the home field and in my opinion, letting the student down badly. That was some time ago - don't know what happens now.
At the time it was usually instructors who had never enjoyed a day's fun flying in their lives - started to learn, went straight from PPL to IMC to BCPL and Instructor ticket and were aiming at CPL and the flight deck. They weren't interested in anywhere else but bigger commercial airports, so they inflicted them on their students and left them with problems when they got their PPLs. I sometimes wondered if the instructors had ever visited a small airfield
The opposite is of course also true nowadays - pupils kept well away from controlled airspace whilst learning, then everyone wonders why they screw up as PPLs when forced to visit at some later date alone.
I had one student who was slow to think out overhead joins and needed to practice, so we used Thorney Island disused without getting low - 3 runways = 6 directions = 12 circuits - I would just 'call one' at random as we passed nearby, and the student had to do the join as far as halfway round the deadside descent, when it was obvious it was going ok. Soon got the hang of it.
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Some good thought provoking points there, Irv.
Perhaps I was just lucky with my PPL training, as my instructor took me into all sorts of airfields, from regional airports to small grass airfields.
Which leads to my next thought
I have come across some PPLs, who never did a grass landing during training ..... Is this common?
Perhaps I was just lucky with my PPL training, as my instructor took me into all sorts of airfields, from regional airports to small grass airfields.
Which leads to my next thought
I have come across some PPLs, who never did a grass landing during training ..... Is this common?
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Irv - Many thanks, your web site was a great help. I did my training out of EGHI and despite visiting many small airfields, I was never asked to make an overhead join. Your description on the website is the same way I tryed to explain it in my first post, so I did have the right idea after all. I was taught an overhead join on the whiteboard at the FTO but being almost a year ago and never having actually done one in the air I just wanted to double-check.
Just one question though, If you approach the airfield from the deadside, do you just begin the descent as you approach the field and then fly over the non-landing end of the runway to join downwind (i.e. Half of the procedure for making an overhead join from the active side?)
Thank you very much.
Tri
Just one question though, If you approach the airfield from the deadside, do you just begin the descent as you approach the field and then fly over the non-landing end of the runway to join downwind (i.e. Half of the procedure for making an overhead join from the active side?)
Thank you very much.
Tri
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Come to think of it, the first time I did a 'standard' overhead join was at the second airfield on my QXC - an airfield I'd never visited with my instructor.
Landing at Caernafon on Friday I was faced with the same question Trislander asked. Approaching on the deadside, I flew threw the overhead, and turned above the airfield through 180 degrees to arrive on the dead side again; I then called 'dead-side descending'. Would love to know if this is 'correct' way to do it!.
To my mind the above process, whilst a bit long winded, does allow extra time to observe the airfield and plan a circuit, especially where noise-avoidence is an issue.
Landing at Caernafon on Friday I was faced with the same question Trislander asked. Approaching on the deadside, I flew threw the overhead, and turned above the airfield through 180 degrees to arrive on the dead side again; I then called 'dead-side descending'. Would love to know if this is 'correct' way to do it!.
To my mind the above process, whilst a bit long winded, does allow extra time to observe the airfield and plan a circuit, especially where noise-avoidence is an issue.
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Monocock My reply was very tongue-in-cheek. Popham was maddness at times on Saturday. I am not in a position to write snidey/offensive remarks to a poster who posts a very good question. I am sorry if you mis-read it, i wish the guy all the luck in the world when he does it, but i too, like some others here find it strange that his instructor had not covered this area as it was one of the first things i was taught. Saying that though, each instructor has his/her own little way i suppose of teaching these things. Good luck Trislander, i certainly hope you didn't take my comment the wrong way. 
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Sorry, it's a long one...
Trilander/Tacpot:
Well if you announce you intend to do an overhead join when approaching from the deadside, you would indeed have to do some sort of U turn in order to start the join at the 'standard' start place (2000' above the landing threshold, heading to the deadside). You would certainly want to do this to observe the landing T square and windsocks if there were no radio service of any kind eg: it is after normal hours.
If you imagine the flight path from the overhead, descending deadside, then level crosswind, then downwind, you COULD join the 'overhead join flight path' at any stage - and you might have to do so if the cloudbase prevented an overhead. If you joined the path deadside, it's a deadside join you would announce, if you join it crosswind, it's a x-wind join, etc etc. (You'd have to be sure of the runway in use though!) I personally think (from experience) it's good airmanship to do proper overhead joins when ever possible for various reasons.
Most of the problems at Popham for example come out of pilots just busting into the circuit pattern at various points just because it suits them personally to do so. They normally ask, eg: "can I do a straight-in/base/whatever join?"and then because the 'radio' service can't actually tell them not to, they take this as permission or justification to do whatever they intended to do all along.
If the radio said "Joins here are at your discretion but personally we'd assume you are a dangerous idiot if you did anything other than an overhead join today" then the message might be somewhat longer, but perhaps clearer and therefore safer.
On days where the cloudbase is high enough, perhaps landing fees could be used to let the market sort it out: Popham overhead joins could be the usual fiver, deadside joins £6, crosswind joins £7, downwind £8, base £9 and straight-ins £10.
You'd be surprised how many pilots do not understand the overhead join - I now make a definite point of asking when anyone new arrives for a checkout or a JAR biennial flight, and it comes up as a question almost everytime from at least one qualified pilot at certain 'meetings' I'm not allowed to mention!
Trilander: "despite visiting many small airfields, I was never asked to make an overhead join."
You've definitely got 'southampton-itis' - and you're by no means alone - but only you can cure yourself! Because Tower at So't'on TELL you what to do, you've fallen into the trap of WANTING others to tell you too at other airfields. These small airfields are (I bet) radio services, ie: non-controlled. If you're Pic, as a PPL or even as a student on solo, you should always be making positive decisions based on current conditions and good airmanship practices. Only doing an overhead join if a 'radio' service tells you to (which should never happen) means you have abdicated your well worked for (and paid) for privileges and responsibilities. Remember - You have control now - don't give it away, enjoy it!
Bringing the discussion back to Compton Abbas - I once heard one Bournemouth (Class D) based pilot refusing to take off at Compton Abbas because the guy on the air/ground radio refused to 'clear' him to do so. It took a few minutes of gentle persuasion to get him to fly home without being 'cleared to take off'.
Trilander/Tacpot:
Well if you announce you intend to do an overhead join when approaching from the deadside, you would indeed have to do some sort of U turn in order to start the join at the 'standard' start place (2000' above the landing threshold, heading to the deadside). You would certainly want to do this to observe the landing T square and windsocks if there were no radio service of any kind eg: it is after normal hours.
If you imagine the flight path from the overhead, descending deadside, then level crosswind, then downwind, you COULD join the 'overhead join flight path' at any stage - and you might have to do so if the cloudbase prevented an overhead. If you joined the path deadside, it's a deadside join you would announce, if you join it crosswind, it's a x-wind join, etc etc. (You'd have to be sure of the runway in use though!) I personally think (from experience) it's good airmanship to do proper overhead joins when ever possible for various reasons.
Most of the problems at Popham for example come out of pilots just busting into the circuit pattern at various points just because it suits them personally to do so. They normally ask, eg: "can I do a straight-in/base/whatever join?"and then because the 'radio' service can't actually tell them not to, they take this as permission or justification to do whatever they intended to do all along.
If the radio said "Joins here are at your discretion but personally we'd assume you are a dangerous idiot if you did anything other than an overhead join today" then the message might be somewhat longer, but perhaps clearer and therefore safer.
On days where the cloudbase is high enough, perhaps landing fees could be used to let the market sort it out: Popham overhead joins could be the usual fiver, deadside joins £6, crosswind joins £7, downwind £8, base £9 and straight-ins £10.
You'd be surprised how many pilots do not understand the overhead join - I now make a definite point of asking when anyone new arrives for a checkout or a JAR biennial flight, and it comes up as a question almost everytime from at least one qualified pilot at certain 'meetings' I'm not allowed to mention!
Trilander: "despite visiting many small airfields, I was never asked to make an overhead join."
You've definitely got 'southampton-itis' - and you're by no means alone - but only you can cure yourself! Because Tower at So't'on TELL you what to do, you've fallen into the trap of WANTING others to tell you too at other airfields. These small airfields are (I bet) radio services, ie: non-controlled. If you're Pic, as a PPL or even as a student on solo, you should always be making positive decisions based on current conditions and good airmanship practices. Only doing an overhead join if a 'radio' service tells you to (which should never happen) means you have abdicated your well worked for (and paid) for privileges and responsibilities. Remember - You have control now - don't give it away, enjoy it! Bringing the discussion back to Compton Abbas - I once heard one Bournemouth (Class D) based pilot refusing to take off at Compton Abbas because the guy on the air/ground radio refused to 'clear' him to do so. It took a few minutes of gentle persuasion to get him to fly home without being 'cleared to take off'.
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Thanks guys, your help has been most useful, especially to Irv. Big Red L - Don't worry, no offence taken!
I will let you all know how I get on upon my return tomorrow!
Cheers, Tri
I will let you all know how I get on upon my return tomorrow!
Cheers, Tri
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I thought that the 'standard' overhead join was part of the PPL syllabus?
Tacpot, I think you were correct - the way I've been taught is that when arriving from the dead side you come in over the far end of the active runway (at 2000 ft) and then do a level turn through 180 degrees so that you arrive at the 'normal' start position for a SOJ. Can easily be adjusted depending on the arrival direction, gives you plenty of time to look at what is going on (if needed) and ensures that everyone is turning in the same direction. You would call 'overhead' when crossing the end of the active runway, and then 'descending deadside' as normal.
Someone in a Bonanza was doing this at Goodwood recently. Surprising how many iterations of "Negative, Flight Information Service only" were required
Tacpot, I think you were correct - the way I've been taught is that when arriving from the dead side you come in over the far end of the active runway (at 2000 ft) and then do a level turn through 180 degrees so that you arrive at the 'normal' start position for a SOJ. Can easily be adjusted depending on the arrival direction, gives you plenty of time to look at what is going on (if needed) and ensures that everyone is turning in the same direction. You would call 'overhead' when crossing the end of the active runway, and then 'descending deadside' as normal.
Bringing the discussion back to Compton Abbas - I once heard one Bournemouth (Class D) based pilot refusing to take off at Compton Abbas because the guy on the air/ground radio refused to 'clear' him to do so. It took a few minutes of gentle persuasion to get him to fly home without being 'cleared to take off'.
Why do it if it's not fun?
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Trislander,
Re. Compton Abbas - it's a beautiful field, you'll have a good day out. But it's very difficult to find if you're approaching from the "wrong" direction - it's completely shielded from the south by some trees. Where are you flying from? If possible, try to route via Shaftsbury - it's easy to spot from that direction.
Also, the field is perched on the top of a hill, which will give you the impression of being high on final. Be aware of this, don't fall for the illusion, and you'll be fine.
If you take this advice, you won't need to worry about approaching from the deadside - Shaftsbury is north of the field, and all circuits are to the north. However, to answer your question, I've never seen anything written down about what to do if approaching from the deadside. I believe the "correct" thing to do is fly overhead the circuit 1000' above circuit height before turning back onto the dead side and beginning the descent. However, I quite frequently descend as I'm approaching the airfield, and either call "descending deadside" if I'm approaching from an up-wind kind of direction, or "joining crosswind" if I'm approaching from a crosswind kind of direction. I'd only recommened this if the circuit is fairly empty and you know the field, though, because it doesn't give you as much time to establish what's going on underneath you. And it's not, technically, an overhead join.
Hope that helps! Enjoy Compton Abbas!
FFF
--------------------
Re. Compton Abbas - it's a beautiful field, you'll have a good day out. But it's very difficult to find if you're approaching from the "wrong" direction - it's completely shielded from the south by some trees. Where are you flying from? If possible, try to route via Shaftsbury - it's easy to spot from that direction.
Also, the field is perched on the top of a hill, which will give you the impression of being high on final. Be aware of this, don't fall for the illusion, and you'll be fine.
If you take this advice, you won't need to worry about approaching from the deadside - Shaftsbury is north of the field, and all circuits are to the north. However, to answer your question, I've never seen anything written down about what to do if approaching from the deadside. I believe the "correct" thing to do is fly overhead the circuit 1000' above circuit height before turning back onto the dead side and beginning the descent. However, I quite frequently descend as I'm approaching the airfield, and either call "descending deadside" if I'm approaching from an up-wind kind of direction, or "joining crosswind" if I'm approaching from a crosswind kind of direction. I'd only recommened this if the circuit is fairly empty and you know the field, though, because it doesn't give you as much time to establish what's going on underneath you. And it's not, technically, an overhead join.
Hope that helps! Enjoy Compton Abbas!
FFF
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Evo7: "Surprising how many iterations of "Negative, Information Service only" were required "
Sounds like the aviation equivalent of the English concept of communicating with non-English speakers. Just keep repeating the same words in English, and if they are not understood, just keep at it, and if necessary get louder.
FFF: Watching students finding Compton Abbas used to be one of the great pleasures of being an instructor in the South - it showed whether the student was using real recognition techniques (timing, the large wood, the edge of the high ground, Shaftesbury, etc) - or not.
Now they've spoiled the whole 'clean' fun of the game by putting up a strobe.
Sounds like the aviation equivalent of the English concept of communicating with non-English speakers. Just keep repeating the same words in English, and if they are not understood, just keep at it, and if necessary get louder.
FFF: Watching students finding Compton Abbas used to be one of the great pleasures of being an instructor in the South - it showed whether the student was using real recognition techniques (timing, the large wood, the edge of the high ground, Shaftesbury, etc) - or not.
Now they've spoiled the whole 'clean' fun of the game by putting up a strobe.