Retention of student records
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Dan, no it just needs to be personally identifiable information. If you hold anything that identifies a person (eg name and details of training flights that are unique to a person) then it comes under the Data Protection Act.
Training records are unique to a student and so are classed as personal data, which would have to be disclosed if the student requests it.
Training records are unique to a student and so are classed as personal data, which would have to be disclosed if the student requests it.
Last edited by wb9999; 1st Mar 2014 at 20:43.
I agree with you Dan the Weegie. The ICO website has a simple Q and A which says; if you have no records on computer you don't need to register with them. There's still of course a duty of care to keep the info from prying eyes. School/club should keep originals but is required to pass copies to the students new chosen provider.
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I guess you didn't read the link from the ICO that I posted yesterday MrAverage. Manual (ie paper records) are included if you have a file per identifiable person, which is normal for training records. if you just have no filing system or one where files are arranged differently (ie by date) then that is not covered by the Data Protection Act. Subject Access Requests (and the DPA) are still applicable even If you are not registered, or required to be registered, with the ICO.
Registration with the ICO and compliance with the DPA are separate things. Almost every organisation has to comply with the DPA (and Subject Access Requests), but not every organisation has to be registered.
Registration with the ICO and compliance with the DPA are separate things. Almost every organisation has to comply with the DPA (and Subject Access Requests), but not every organisation has to be registered.
Last edited by wb9999; 2nd Mar 2014 at 10:16.
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@ Solar
" That's the way to do it" (i always liked Punch and Judy! )
When something is in your custody,for work, you have a lien.....in the case of a motor vehicle (or aircraft) possession is, indeed, 9/10 of the law.
You are entitled to keep possession until the lien is satisfied BUT if you release it to the owner, you lose the right...IF the owner has, for instance, spare keys and takes possession without permission, then it is theft!
I read of a case where a Rolls was repaired and the bill outstanding not sure if the owner died or vanished, statutory notices putin the local paper and (iirc)
the London Gazette....car subsequently sold by Tender.
In the aircraft situation, An aircraft with an outstanding liability, would appear to re-establish the lien if it returns to the creditor-aerodrome......you will have heard of Baillifs sticking a notice on, chaining the prop, parking vehicles to obstruct it, etc.
That's why it's important to do the right pre-buy research.....the debt stays with the plane, not the owner! (an expensive lesson for some!)
As I said, very little leverage with unpaid lessons, the bilking stude can simply redo them...inconvenient, but if they get away with it,many hours practice at the first trainers'expense.
IMO, the records are evidence of services provided...the training school should, as a matter of priority, issue a Plaint through the Court system, for recovery of the debt.
Procedure is, no doubt, different in N.I. to the mainland ( where the plaintiff merely gets a DIY pack (free) from their local County Court, fills in the Plaint, sends it, with the appropriate fee, back to Court....job done! )
I agree that the records could well be "lost" by the training organisation, until the debt is satisfied....but it does sound like your friend has a hard-faced scammer on his hands. he should take the initiative and agressively pursue the debt. (wrt the instructor- conspiracy to defraud?) a word with Plod may help, especially if they have an "interest" in the party/ies concerned.
In NI we had more direct ways of sorting out debt!!!!!!:
" That's the way to do it" (i always liked Punch and Judy! )When something is in your custody,for work, you have a lien.....in the case of a motor vehicle (or aircraft) possession is, indeed, 9/10 of the law.
You are entitled to keep possession until the lien is satisfied BUT if you release it to the owner, you lose the right...IF the owner has, for instance, spare keys and takes possession without permission, then it is theft!
I read of a case where a Rolls was repaired and the bill outstanding not sure if the owner died or vanished, statutory notices putin the local paper and (iirc)
the London Gazette....car subsequently sold by Tender.
In the aircraft situation, An aircraft with an outstanding liability, would appear to re-establish the lien if it returns to the creditor-aerodrome......you will have heard of Baillifs sticking a notice on, chaining the prop, parking vehicles to obstruct it, etc.
That's why it's important to do the right pre-buy research.....the debt stays with the plane, not the owner! (an expensive lesson for some!)
As I said, very little leverage with unpaid lessons, the bilking stude can simply redo them...inconvenient, but if they get away with it,many hours practice at the first trainers'expense.
IMO, the records are evidence of services provided...the training school should, as a matter of priority, issue a Plaint through the Court system, for recovery of the debt.
Procedure is, no doubt, different in N.I. to the mainland ( where the plaintiff merely gets a DIY pack (free) from their local County Court, fills in the Plaint, sends it, with the appropriate fee, back to Court....job done! )
I agree that the records could well be "lost" by the training organisation, until the debt is satisfied....but it does sound like your friend has a hard-faced scammer on his hands. he should take the initiative and agressively pursue the debt. (wrt the instructor- conspiracy to defraud?) a word with Plod may help, especially if they have an "interest" in the party/ies concerned.
Thread Starter
CS
There is a court case in progress at the moment although not instigated by the school owner although it looks like it will work in his benefit when the full story emerges and will pave the way for him to get his money and costs through the courts.
In the small claims you can only apparently recover the monies owed but not any legal costs and also the debtor can promise to pay a nominal sum per week over a long period which is as good as not paying.
That's the way it operates in NI anyway, the only way to get all your costs is through the high court in which case you need to have a watertight case.
As you will have gathered from previous posts that this is not a simple matter of a student walking away owing money, there is a rogue instructor witht his own perceived axe to grind who is behind the students actions.
There is a court case in progress at the moment although not instigated by the school owner although it looks like it will work in his benefit when the full story emerges and will pave the way for him to get his money and costs through the courts.
In the small claims you can only apparently recover the monies owed but not any legal costs and also the debtor can promise to pay a nominal sum per week over a long period which is as good as not paying.
That's the way it operates in NI anyway, the only way to get all your costs is through the high court in which case you need to have a watertight case.
As you will have gathered from previous posts that this is not a simple matter of a student walking away owing money, there is a rogue instructor witht his own perceived axe to grind who is behind the students actions.
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Same "small claims" procedure as here, then. Costs that are allowable(assuming the Plaintiff wins ) are limited....the Plaint fee itself (aka cost of issuing the summons) any postage, phone calls, fares or fuel to chase the debt, loss of earning to attend the hearing and cost to atend . In addition, where appropriate, an expert report is allowable.(up to a designated maximum)
My last case, a car with guaranteed mileage I bought at auction, close examination showed it had been severely "haircut" (clocked) the vendor was another trader. he refused to back down and cancel the deal. he used a solicitor to try and intimidate me into giving up....so I kept hassling, knowing each reply was racking up the bill for him.
Filed the Plaint at my local Court, 5 miles away....he asked for a transferto Halifax,~20 miles, then I had to find the courthouse....Claomed the maximum allowed under small-claims rules at the time. Judge asked why I hadn't claimed my total loss and Iexplained Iwould then have been liable for the defendant's costs if I lost, nothing being a total certainty.......awarded max. plus travelling plus full cost of consulting engineers report which confirmed the car had done far more than the recorded miles......I'd already sold the car at a small profit, came out with another £1200. (1K claimed, plus court cost,plus travelling, loss of 1/2 day's wage, plus the report. plus defendant had his brief to pay and was a marked man by local Trading Standards.
Sounds like your friend has his ducks in a row!
A Civilcase only needs the judge to be 51% in favour of one party(the balance of probability)
A Criminal case has to be proven "beyond all reasonable doubt" The judgement on the current case, if I see things correctly, will have a real influence on any case your friend brings. good luck to him!
edit:- If defendant asks for time to pay, income /assets can be challenged and he will have to proveto Court ,how he can take flying lessons but not afford to pay for them
) are limited....the Plaint fee itself (aka cost of issuing the summons) any postage, phone calls, fares or fuel to chase the debt, loss of earning to attend the hearing and cost to atend . In addition, where appropriate, an expert report is allowable.(up to a designated maximum)My last case, a car with guaranteed mileage I bought at auction, close examination showed it had been severely "haircut" (clocked) the vendor was another trader. he refused to back down and cancel the deal. he used a solicitor to try and intimidate me into giving up....so I kept hassling, knowing each reply was racking up the bill for him.
Filed the Plaint at my local Court, 5 miles away....he asked for a transferto Halifax,~20 miles, then I had to find the courthouse....Claomed the maximum allowed under small-claims rules at the time. Judge asked why I hadn't claimed my total loss and Iexplained Iwould then have been liable for the defendant's costs if I lost, nothing being a total certainty.......awarded max. plus travelling plus full cost of consulting engineers report which confirmed the car had done far more than the recorded miles......I'd already sold the car at a small profit, came out with another £1200. (1K claimed, plus court cost,plus travelling, loss of 1/2 day's wage, plus the report. plus defendant had his brief to pay and was a marked man by local Trading Standards.
Sounds like your friend has his ducks in a row!
A Civilcase only needs the judge to be 51% in favour of one party(the balance of probability)
A Criminal case has to be proven "beyond all reasonable doubt" The judgement on the current case, if I see things correctly, will have a real influence on any case your friend brings. good luck to him!
edit:- If defendant asks for time to pay, income /assets can be challenged and he will have to proveto Court ,how he can take flying lessons but not afford to pay for them
Last edited by cockney steve; 2nd Mar 2014 at 22:41. Reason: added info.
Thread Starter
CS
You don't want a job, legal advisor to the uninitiated!!!! Looks like you learned the hard way.
The student in question can well afford to pay, a fact that the rogue instructor is well aware of.
As we say here, the instructor is making the snowballs for the student to throw in court safe in the knowledge that it won't cost him (the instructor) any money.
What the instructor fails to comprehend is that GA aviation is a small world especially in our neck of the woods and he has already burned his bridges at another school on the same airport and his reputation is spreading rapidly. Extremely short sighted to say the least.
You don't want a job, legal advisor to the uninitiated!!!! Looks like you learned the hard way.
The student in question can well afford to pay, a fact that the rogue instructor is well aware of.
As we say here, the instructor is making the snowballs for the student to throw in court safe in the knowledge that it won't cost him (the instructor) any money.
What the instructor fails to comprehend is that GA aviation is a small world especially in our neck of the woods and he has already burned his bridges at another school on the same airport and his reputation is spreading rapidly. Extremely short sighted to say the least.
Last edited by Solar; 3rd Mar 2014 at 00:17. Reason: PS How do you remove the edit button fromthe message?
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From that, Iassume the school owner is the defendant in that action....in which case, the judge may well have the power to order the plaintiff (pupil) topay his debt.
I was really pointing out tha the pupil would find it hard to come up with a valid reason to dripfeed the repayment. Idon't think judges like debtors who try to play the system
regarding "a small world"..undoubtedly!....Ihad a customer who I let go with the vehicle...he then avoided me for several weeks so I lost the profit on his fuel....vehicle spotted outside another repairer, whom I phoned and gave the heads up....he impounded the vehicle until he got paid. weeks later, a repeat performance at a third repairer who i'd already warned. bloke was blacklisted by all local garages cash only!...eventually, he moved away...someone else's problem.
Perhaps a third party could bend the Stude's ear and point out that he's being used as a "patsy" by this instructor...Abit of analysis may make him realise thathe's being used.
I was really pointing out tha the pupil would find it hard to come up with a valid reason to dripfeed the repayment. Idon't think judges like debtors who try to play the system
regarding "a small world"..undoubtedly!....Ihad a customer who I let go with the vehicle...he then avoided me for several weeks so I lost the profit on his fuel....vehicle spotted outside another repairer, whom I phoned and gave the heads up....he impounded the vehicle until he got paid. weeks later, a repeat performance at a third repairer who i'd already warned. bloke was blacklisted by all local garages cash only!...eventually, he moved away...someone else's problem.
Perhaps a third party could bend the Stude's ear and point out that he's being used as a "patsy" by this instructor...Abit of analysis may make him realise thathe's being used.
