Flight Test & Engine out

[Big Pistons Forever]

Originally Posted by Pace

There were a couple of fatal very tragic accidents in PC12s where loss of control at altitude resulted in failure of the pilots to recover and I wonder whether this was partially due to too much emphasis on systems and the automatics and not enough on good old handling techniques

Pace

I think it is misleading to say that these accidents were a result of the "failure of the pilots to recover" with the clear implication that a lack of spin training was the problem.

Not being so stupid as to fly directly into a level 4 CB would have prevented one accident and another accident that was the result of a massive fuel imbalance could have been resolved with even the most basic systems knowledge. Not flying over gross would also have helped

In other words these accidents were caused by an were egregious lack of airmanship and good pilot decision making. Spin training is not the way to fix these kinds of accidents.

When I teach stall/spin recognition and avoidance. I do it in 4 steps

1) Recognize and recover from the slow flight regime

2) If the slow flight regime is inadvertently entered then allowed to progress to the stall than recognize the incipient stall and recover before the break

3) If the aircraft is not recovered at an incipient stall than recognize and recover from a fully developed stall

4) If the aircraft is not only allowed to stall but also allowed to yaw after it stalls than recognize and recover from the incipient spin.

The best way to do the later is to explore climbing turn stalls. This is also a great way to reinforce the dangers of skids and what happens if the airplane is allowed to stall while in a skid.

The bottom line is simple. I want my students to develop the instinctive reaction of stick forward, full power, straight with the rudder anytime there is a danger of stalling. If that is applied it is impossible for the aircraft to spin.

If the student gets into a spin they have to be stupid times 3. They let the aircraft get into slow flight and did nothing, then they let the aircraft stall and did nothing, then they let the aircraft yaw after it stalled and did nothing. I find it hard to believe that after letting the situation so totally deteriorate they are suddenly going to snap to attention and apply the correct anti spin control.

[RatherBeFlying]

Pulling the tow release at say 100 feet with no landable area ahead, therefore requiring you to turn back to the runway would be a more apt comparison as to the risk entailed.

How many times have you done that ?

Done it at 50' with a slow launch off the winch. Works much better than 100' over the winch at the end of the runway.

At low height:

1. select least hostile terrain
2. put it there at minimum speed
3. call insurance company

Gliders end up in the trees with some frequency, usually with no damage to the crew. SEPs do pretty much as well, provided they don't stall or spin in.

[Maoraigh1]

Done it at 50' with a slow launch off the winch.

With cables used for winch launching around 1960, when I was gliding, cable breaks were common at all heights - but there was always a clear area from the launch start to the winch. This is no comparison to an EFTO.

[Big Pistons Forever]

Originally Posted by RatherBeFlying

At low height:

1. select least hostile terrain
2. put it there at minimum speed
3. call insurance company

Like gliders the priority in a SEP is not to save the airplane it is to save the occupants of the airplane. I tell my students the instance the engine fails the insurance company just bought the airplane.

[Pace]

BPF

If the student gets into a spin they have to be stupid times 3. They let the aircraft get into slow flight and did nothing, then they let the aircraft stall and did nothing, then they let the aircraft yaw after it stalled and did nothing. I find it hard to believe that after letting the situation so totally deteriorate they are suddenly going to snap to attention and apply the correct anti spin control.

Usually these things happen because the pilot is distracted or hits overload and basically cannot handle a situation which is out of his or the aircrafts limits.
Yes they do something stupid or act stupid.
If we look at the overload situation there was a great study carried out on overload!
One of the biggest defences against getting into overload is familiarity i.e. being so familiar and knowledgeable about ALL handling traits of the aircraft and its systems then very little brain power is needed to fly the aircraft! That releases a lot of mental power to deal with the situation which has lead to overload.
Ie your overload tolerance becomes higher.
secondly being familiar with ALL the handling traits in and out of the box will mean that the pilot will react instinctively and use less mental capacity in rectifying the situation.

An already stressed pilot faced with being in something like a spin who is not well trained and instinctive in recovery and identification of that spin or not even know if he is in a spin or spiral dive will be in unknown territory and hence in a high overload situation i.e. he is far far more likely to freeze at the controls or use incorrect recovery procedures.
The fact that he is only partially trained is itself a stress factor as then fear of the unknown comes into play! We had a thread started by such a student who was scared of stalls because his mind ran riot on what might happen if he messed up stall recovery on his own and got into unknown territory

The fully trained pilot is far more likely not to get into overload while the partially trained pilot will overload much quicker and more easily.

Teaching avoidance is only part of the training of that pilot and he is ill equipt to deal with things he is not trained in.

I would personally trim out some of the PPL requirements to make way for 3 hrs of aerobatic training with a suitable aerobatic aircraft and an aerobatic qualified instructor maybe just prior to the long cross countries

BPF btw I always read your posts with interest and take in your views with respect as I do with certain other posters here

Pace

[sab444]

Piper.Classique - Wow this sound amazing. I would love to fly a tail dragger when I can and hope to fly the Piper Pawnee tug plane at my gliding club when I have my PPL.

[Pace]

Sab

I think your instructor is excellent and you are turning into an equally excellent pilot Keep them coming as I and I am sure others really enjoy the videos

Pace

[8198M]

Slow flight

Can't believe it has been 40 years since I got my ticket.

My instructor was a crop duster, and very thorough. He taught me slow flight, stalls, spins, accelerated stalls, approach stalls and many times, recovery [under the hood] from unusual attitude. Yes, he cut the engine on me - more than once - and a few other things I won't go into on a forum. I feel it made me more aware of the consequences of an engine failure, and more alert for even small issues. He taught me to feel the airplane, not to just work the controls.

BTW, I really enjoy spins...still enjoy snap rolls, too. Tom was an excellent instructor. Created a good friendship, as well. Amazing how trust will do that.

[Piper.Classique]

Hi there Sab
I expect you will enjoy flying a Pawnee, it's a big soft pussycat to fly. Try to get some gliding as well, and above all remember that it's supposed to be fun!

[sab444]

I've been flying a glider from the age of 13 and love it This is a video of my first solo flight in a single seat glider.

[Cows getting bigger]

Fantastic. It's been 30 years since I did any serious gliding. Without doubt it is the best way for youngsters to get involved in aviation. Not only does it teach great stick-n-rudder skills, it instills teamwork, confidence and airmanship.

[Pace]

Sab

Can i ask you how you got your interest in flying ? I used to fly with my son when he was 10 yrs old and despite me trying to persuade him into a more stable career he ignored his teachers advice and mine to go to University and was right seat in a 737 with EasyJet here in the UK at the age of 20. He is now just past his mid twenties and up for a Captain in the A320.
Was one of your parents into Aviation?
What do you hope to do? Keep aviation as a past time or are you intending to make a career flying?
Excuse me for being nosey I usually am

Pace

[Desert185]

Pace
I used to fly with my son when he was 10 yrs old and despite me trying to persuade him into a more stable career he ignored his teachers advice and mine to go to University and was right seat in a 737 with EasyJet here in the UK at the age of 20. He is now just past his mid twenties and up for a Captain in the A320.

My son flies Gulfstreams for a corporation. He tells his mother (my ex-wife) that he's a piano player in a brothel.

Edit: I just reached 411 posts. Reminds me how much I miss 411A's posts. RIP, Captain. Should have a cigar in his memory today.