Zone infringement today
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Completely agree with flybymike and Pilot.Lyons (and not just because I am aware of my own navigational shortcomings). On the other hand, being unaware of own position with CAS nearby and apparently unreachable on R/T (let alone proactively talking to ATC) strikes me as slightly odd.
Was once guilty of a minor infringement myself (without any consequences for other traffic as far as I know, just clipped the edge of a "CAS above 2500ft" piece of airspace when I believed I was still in a "CAS above 3500ft" piece). As I was quite close to my home aerodrome and still on their frequency, the ATC guy/gal from the big airport nearby made an educated guess, phoned the aerodrome tower and asked them to gently tell me to descend or buzz off (I did both, quickly and red-headed, and that was it, no further complaints from anyone). Point is: to be completely unreachable for ATC it would appear that one has to almost make an effort, or maybe I was just lucky.
Was once guilty of a minor infringement myself (without any consequences for other traffic as far as I know, just clipped the edge of a "CAS above 2500ft" piece of airspace when I believed I was still in a "CAS above 3500ft" piece). As I was quite close to my home aerodrome and still on their frequency, the ATC guy/gal from the big airport nearby made an educated guess, phoned the aerodrome tower and asked them to gently tell me to descend or buzz off (I did both, quickly and red-headed, and that was it, no further complaints from anyone). Point is: to be completely unreachable for ATC it would appear that one has to almost make an effort, or maybe I was just lucky.
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flybymike, fair comment, I was maybe a bit hasty jumping to that conclusion and certainly wasn't suggesting every infringement should be prosecuted.
But reading the OP's 3rd post I would be interested to know what his or her excuse was, if indeed there was one.
But reading the OP's 3rd post I would be interested to know what his or her excuse was, if indeed there was one.
Avoid imitations
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How can you provide separation when there is no way of knowing what the infringer is doing??
A one word answer will do.
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“Happy landings, we're watching you! “:
Hear that click? It is pilots switching off their transponders for fear of BBWolf. We need to work together to reduce infringements, not encourage a them and us mentality.
Rod1
Hear that click? It is pilots switching off their transponders for fear of BBWolf. We need to work together to reduce infringements, not encourage a them and us mentality.
Rod1
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Silvaire1, class D in the UK is more like Class C or B in the US in terms of size and type of movements. US class D is more like a UK Class G ATZ with ATC (Shoreham, Carlisle etc).
The airfield I learnt at in the US was uncontrolled (unicom). Within a year it had become class D without a single commercial aircraft or a jet.
The airfield I learnt at in the US was uncontrolled (unicom). Within a year it had become class D without a single commercial aircraft or a jet.
Silvaire1, class D in the UK is more like Class C or B in the US in terms of size and type of movements. US class D is more like a UK Class G ATZ with ATC (Shoreham, Carlisle etc).
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My US base is tower controlled within Class D airspace. We have 650 operations per day mixing traffic ranging from a Breezy to Gulfstreams,
How about at a class C with 737s? Would they be delayed by unknown traffic less than 2000ft over the airfield? That's what the OP is talking about - 3 airliners, which are likely to be 737s at East Mids.
I could however relate some stories about people flying uncleared into the local Class B, it happens every day, including a guy I knew (now sadly passed on) making his last ever solo flight after 70 years of flying. He was told on the phone not to do that again - and decided he wouldn't!
I occasionally fly a non-transponder equipped aircraft directly over the primary commercial airport within the Class B area, without being in radio contact with anybody. At about 3500 ft directly over the airport its legal. I prefer to do it in an Electrical/Mode C equipped aircraft so they can see me, and know my altitude, even if they specifically don't want to talk to me.
Last edited by Silvaire1; 5th Aug 2013 at 21:32.
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Depends
And exactly how much separation would normally be provided for VFR traffic by ATC in Class D airspace.....?
(B) Duty of Care.
But both of the above rely on it being a known traffic environment, i.e. ATC know what everyone is doing. Once an infringement occurs it becomes an unknown environment because ATC has no earthly idea what the 'rogue' aircraft will do...in exactly the same way that none of the airlines nor the other GA has any idea.
Effectively the 'controlled' airspace now has an element of the 'uncontrolled'. ATC will do it's best to separate all the other traffic from the 'uncontrolled' aircraft (this may well be less than "standard" separation but it's better than nothing!) whilst maintaining separation (where required) between the known traffic.
Would you honestly prefer if ATC told you "Unknown traffic, 1 o'clock, range 3nm, I think it's a PA28, possibly crossing right to left, maybe turning towards you, no height information available. Cleared to Land"??
I'd say, given that you, nor I, have any idea what was going on in the cockpit of the infringer (Head down? Head up? Emergency? Equipment failure? Weather deterioration? Pilot experience? Malicious intent? Etc, etc), that the actions taken by ATC (clearing the runway, holding aircraft) seem pretty appropriate. That we are talking about delays rather than an AIRPROX (or worse) suggests to me that the situation was well-managed.
(Also bear in mind that, whilst RT exchanges between ATC and the various aircraft being provided with a service can be overheard, there was probably a lot of unseen work going on in ATC, e.g. Extra eyes trying to track 'rogue' aircraft, telephone co-ordinations between the Tower and adjacent units, alerting the aerodrome fire service/aerodrome authority to prepare for an emergency.)
Re: book-throwing... That is unlikely in my opinion to have a significant long-term effect on infringements. Infringements (vast majority) are unintentional errors. Pilots don't set out to infringe CAS. Improved use of LARS, "listening out" frequencies/codes, etc, is more likely IMO to reduce the number and severity of infringements. Some ATC units and local flying clubs/local operators have good, constructive dialogue - this is surely what we should all be promoting, rather than debating whether the ATC service, based on the classification of airspace, was appropriate.
(Supportive Class D ATCO)
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ShyTorque:
Clearly the answer you're after is "none" but unfortunately a one-word answer won't do because (unlike the US as numerous contributors have pointed out) while there is no formal requirement for separation between IFR and VFR in UK Class D, the normal and accepted practice is to provide 3nm or 1000ft between IFR traffic and VFR traffic, except when it is inside the ATZ. This is great for IFR traffic but does make it much more difficult for VFR traffic which is regularly denied entry to CAS, held and orbited while IFRs get in/out.
I've flown VFR in CAS in the States and found it really disconcerting how much freedom you're given, but it clearly works because the safety record there is excellent.
NS
Quote:
How can you provide separation when there is no way of knowing what the infringer is doing??
And exactly how much separation would normally be provided for VFR traffic by ATC in Class D airspace.....?
A one word answer will do.
How can you provide separation when there is no way of knowing what the infringer is doing??
And exactly how much separation would normally be provided for VFR traffic by ATC in Class D airspace.....?
A one word answer will do.
I've flown VFR in CAS in the States and found it really disconcerting how much freedom you're given, but it clearly works because the safety record there is excellent.
NS
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I too have found myself unexpectedly near East Midlands - having managed to become lost by following the wrong valley down from the Pennines in a rather low cloud base and being unable to contact Doncaster on my first "proper" cross-country post-PPL.
I found ATC to be very supportive when I called them up, advised uncertain of position and, on tying a significant landmark to a position on my map, realised at approximately the same time as they did precisely where I was. Apologising profusely and high-tailing it away from the area (with the controller's confirmation) were the order of the day, followed up by a phone call when I landed - they'd also made one back to my club whilst I was in the air.
I did not affect any traffic that day, but learnt several valuable lessons. If you don't talk, you're endangering, or at least inconveniencing, a lot more people than just yourself - and let's face it, you're the only person whose skin you're trying to save by staying quiet, correct? Being a pilot is more than flying the aircraft, and the latter is not an attitude that befits the responsibility in my view. Admittedly, judgemental attitudes will not encourage pilots to do the right thing - we all must work together - but I have no complaints at all about East Midlands ATC in this area.
I found ATC to be very supportive when I called them up, advised uncertain of position and, on tying a significant landmark to a position on my map, realised at approximately the same time as they did precisely where I was. Apologising profusely and high-tailing it away from the area (with the controller's confirmation) were the order of the day, followed up by a phone call when I landed - they'd also made one back to my club whilst I was in the air.
I did not affect any traffic that day, but learnt several valuable lessons. If you don't talk, you're endangering, or at least inconveniencing, a lot more people than just yourself - and let's face it, you're the only person whose skin you're trying to save by staying quiet, correct? Being a pilot is more than flying the aircraft, and the latter is not an attitude that befits the responsibility in my view. Admittedly, judgemental attitudes will not encourage pilots to do the right thing - we all must work together - but I have no complaints at all about East Midlands ATC in this area.
Last edited by JDA2012; 13th Nov 2015 at 20:33.
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JDA2012
Great post 
Great tip too...once you know (or think!) you've made a mistake talk to someone (preferably on the RT and to the right ATC unit!), but let someone know - even if it's not the right unit. This will help to resolve the situation more quickly than keeping schtum...and may well benefit you afterwards.
I suspect it is better to own up to a genuine error at the time than to receive a tap on the shoulder later - can any GA pilots confirm this?
It's also amazing what a follow-up phone call to the ATC unit involved can do. We're all human, pilots, ATC, and (in my experience) the regulator. We all make mistakes. But the earlier you recognise it and notify the relevant person/unit etc the better in my book.
I encourage GA pilots/flying clubs etc to engage with ATC (not just "post-incident"!). Understanding each others realm is beneficial to both parties.
Great tip too...once you know (or think!) you've made a mistake talk to someone (preferably on the RT and to the right ATC unit!), but let someone know - even if it's not the right unit. This will help to resolve the situation more quickly than keeping schtum...and may well benefit you afterwards.
I suspect it is better to own up to a genuine error at the time than to receive a tap on the shoulder later - can any GA pilots confirm this?
It's also amazing what a follow-up phone call to the ATC unit involved can do. We're all human, pilots, ATC, and (in my experience) the regulator. We all make mistakes. But the earlier you recognise it and notify the relevant person/unit etc the better in my book.
I encourage GA pilots/flying clubs etc to engage with ATC (not just "post-incident"!). Understanding each others realm is beneficial to both parties.
Last edited by good egg; 6th Aug 2013 at 00:00.
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“Happy landings, we're watching you! “:
Hear that click? It is pilots switching off their transponders for fear of BBWolf. We need to work together to reduce infringements, not encourage a them and us mentality.
Rod1
Hear that click? It is pilots switching off their transponders for fear of BBWolf. We need to work together to reduce infringements, not encourage a them and us mentality.
Rod1
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I have always found East Mids to be quite good but they did once accuse me of infringing. Fortunately for me I was test flying an aircraft and was in a turn looking straight down the stack at Rugeley power station at the time – they had got the wrong aircraft. A low hour PPL in a less certain location would have been in for some high stress though. Both pilots and controllers make mistakes – we are all human. Good news is there has never been a fatal accident due to an infringement in the UK – let’s ALL work to keep it that way.
Rod1
Rod1
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I have had some requests to give a little more background;
As many of you will know I have spent considerable time and effort increasing awareness of Collision Avoidance. If you have a device that detects transponders it does not take very long to realise that a fair number of transponder equipped aircraft do not have the unit’s switched on. If you challenge people on the ground it soon becomes obvious that there is a fear that “Big Bad Wolf will get you if you make a slip up – so why make it easy for him”.
How did this state of affairs come about? Well that is a complex question but one or two events had a big impact. A few years ago a Red Arrows display was ruined by 4 infringing aircraft. The “Daily Mail readers” were outraged and we were told that the culprits would be brought to book. Of the 4, only one was ever traced – the only one squawking – and he was prosecuted. This event has entered pilot folklore. Common belief is that if you do not squawk and you just make a small mistake, Big Bad Wolf will not see you and if he does, he will not see you well and will not trace you. I am not saying the above is technically correct, but it did happen once and people believe it.
The second issue is one of regulation. If you are an owner pilot and you do not fly IFR then if you have a transponder you are what is called a “user chooser”. This means you are under no obligation at all to have a transponder and if you have one you do not need to turn it on. I have spent many years trying to get people to use the kit, it makes everyone safer, but fear of Big Bad Wolf is a powerful thing. We are now at a crossroads in transponder fitment. Many none “IFR” owners have left their old Mode C units in the aircraft and such a unit has a huge upside to safety. So what is the problem? Well the installations are getting old and the kit is starting to fail. The owner of a failed Mode A/C transponder has two choices. He can replace it with a mode s unit at a cost on a permit of around £1500 - £2500 or on C of A £3500 - £4500 (averages based on work done some time ago), or he fits a blanking plate at close to zero cost. I am very keen that people choose to fit new units and I think everyone will see that that is good for the aviation community. In order for this to happen we need to dismantle the fear culture and win a hearts and minds campaign that we are all keen on safety, we all make mistakes and we must all work together to try to improve, not hang people out to dry. I have upgraded my transponder to mode s, I keep it on and I hope I am helping. If I removed the unit and sold it on ebay it would have almost zero impact on my flying (except I would have more cash!), but my small composite aircraft is almost invisible to radar without the kit.
Rod1
As many of you will know I have spent considerable time and effort increasing awareness of Collision Avoidance. If you have a device that detects transponders it does not take very long to realise that a fair number of transponder equipped aircraft do not have the unit’s switched on. If you challenge people on the ground it soon becomes obvious that there is a fear that “Big Bad Wolf will get you if you make a slip up – so why make it easy for him”.
How did this state of affairs come about? Well that is a complex question but one or two events had a big impact. A few years ago a Red Arrows display was ruined by 4 infringing aircraft. The “Daily Mail readers” were outraged and we were told that the culprits would be brought to book. Of the 4, only one was ever traced – the only one squawking – and he was prosecuted. This event has entered pilot folklore. Common belief is that if you do not squawk and you just make a small mistake, Big Bad Wolf will not see you and if he does, he will not see you well and will not trace you. I am not saying the above is technically correct, but it did happen once and people believe it.
The second issue is one of regulation. If you are an owner pilot and you do not fly IFR then if you have a transponder you are what is called a “user chooser”. This means you are under no obligation at all to have a transponder and if you have one you do not need to turn it on. I have spent many years trying to get people to use the kit, it makes everyone safer, but fear of Big Bad Wolf is a powerful thing. We are now at a crossroads in transponder fitment. Many none “IFR” owners have left their old Mode C units in the aircraft and such a unit has a huge upside to safety. So what is the problem? Well the installations are getting old and the kit is starting to fail. The owner of a failed Mode A/C transponder has two choices. He can replace it with a mode s unit at a cost on a permit of around £1500 - £2500 or on C of A £3500 - £4500 (averages based on work done some time ago), or he fits a blanking plate at close to zero cost. I am very keen that people choose to fit new units and I think everyone will see that that is good for the aviation community. In order for this to happen we need to dismantle the fear culture and win a hearts and minds campaign that we are all keen on safety, we all make mistakes and we must all work together to try to improve, not hang people out to dry. I have upgraded my transponder to mode s, I keep it on and I hope I am helping. If I removed the unit and sold it on ebay it would have almost zero impact on my flying (except I would have more cash!), but my small composite aircraft is almost invisible to radar without the kit.
Rod1
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I am very keen that people choose to fit new units and I think everyone will see that that is good for the aviation community. In order for this to happen we need to dismantle the fear culture and win a hearts and minds campaign that we are all keen on safety, we all make mistakes and we must all work together to try to improve, not hang people out to dry. I have upgraded my transponder to mode s, I keep it on and I hope I am helping. If I removed the unit and sold it on ebay it would have almost zero impact on my flying (except I would have more cash!), but my small composite aircraft is almost invisible to radar without the kit.
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...and of course to bring the price down. The CAA could show a lead by waiving the mod fees
When people go flying, especially around Control Zones, or known areas of low faster traffic, surely you would employ all means possible to make your trip as safe as possible.Transponders are a pre requisite for this. Regardless of cost.
I was at a very interesting discussion on this topic yesterday, where amongst other things, Airprox events were on the agenda. The RAF are trying extremely hard to get GA aircraft flying around at low level to transpond and speak to FISO's, therefore getting everyone more visual to fast jet traffic, and controllers. The side benefit is infringement, or more of a chance to alert would be infringers, and yet, people are still moaning about, the cost, the hastle, 'I dont want to talk to anyone', I am happy with my freedoms etc etc.
I have no issue with non radio/non transponder/non anything, as long as it is away from any potentail infringements or busy areas.
On the way home, I listened into an aeroplane transmit, who had been at the event, asking for a control zone transit, the controller was very busy, he then stated he was non transponder - Transit Refused , Stay Out Of Controlled Airpace. This has an overall negative effect, on the perceptions and attitudes of controllers, and the overall experience of the pilot, and yet individuals who either do not want, or cannot, fit an adequtae transponder, are still looking for Control Zone transits.
I honestly think pilots require to take a long hard look at the world we now live in and come up to speed.