Practice stalls- when to recover?
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Its interesting that most of us low-hours PPL & students too have probably only ever been taught stall recovery from a wings-level attitude at altitude. I personally thought 'this is silly, I'm never going let myself get into this situation - no power, nose pointing towards heaven, stall warner shouting at me - no way!' So the Pavlovian reaction to stall recovery is 'stick & throttle forward!'
But Ivchenko has raised the spectre of something a little more ominous - a heavy aeroplane, bit low on base, bit slow too, bit late turning finals so using a bit more bank angle. Do I detect a recipe for disaster? And thats a scenario that we are not taught how to get out of.
But Ivchenko has raised the spectre of something a little more ominous - a heavy aeroplane, bit low on base, bit slow too, bit late turning finals so using a bit more bank angle. Do I detect a recipe for disaster? And thats a scenario that we are not taught how to get out of.
Not so N, but still FG
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Did you not also do a recovery in a descending turn with flaps lowered? I was both taught this and tested on it. Whirly: why not get an aerobatic instructor to show you departures and recoveries in various wacky attitudes? Good for confidence generally. Less scary and more fun than many fairground rides.
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I was taught to recover at the buffet, from what Iunderstand spining had just been taken out of the sylabus. I agree with Whirly in that you should be taught to recover at the first signs not after a full blown stall...
However...
I also agree with WWW (see it does happen mate!!!), in that everyone should also know how to get out of a spin and its a shame its no lnger required. I did a couple with the examiner on my GFT as he wanted me to experience them even though it wasnt part of the test.
When I have some spare time I intend doing the AOPA aerobatics course for some fun and hopefully some valuable experience!!!
Julian.
However...
I also agree with WWW (see it does happen mate!!!), in that everyone should also know how to get out of a spin and its a shame its no lnger required. I did a couple with the examiner on my GFT as he wanted me to experience them even though it wasnt part of the test.
When I have some spare time I intend doing the AOPA aerobatics course for some fun and hopefully some valuable experience!!!
Julian.
Why do it if it's not fun?
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Rudder lock, huh? Never heard of it!
A quick search of the web didn't reveal too much, except this document from NASA which doesn't give too much detail. I'd be very interested to hear...
FFF
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A quick search of the web didn't reveal too much, except this document from NASA which doesn't give too much detail. I'd be very interested to hear...
FFF
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The Original Whirly
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BEagle,
What you say makes a lot of sense. Show the student a fully developed stall and teach them to recover from it ONCE, then emphasise recovery from the incipient stall (see, I'm even remembering the right terminology again
). I seem to remember whole HOURS of falling out of the sky, and feeling sick at the end of it. I think that's how I got scared of something I found fun in the first place. A young male instructor who couldn't stand the fact that a woman twice his age wasn't even remotely nervous, I suspect, though I can't quite remember. Well, if that was the case he achieved his aim! And he's probably responsible for my becoming a helicopter pilot, at least to some extent.
The trouble with my doing anything remotely aerobatic is that I do get airsick quite easily. I went for a gliding trial lesson and got persuaded to do a loop; I did it too, and it was fun, but then I felt ill and the instrutor had to do the landing. But I think my next f/w biannual check ride is gonna have to be stalls and spin recovery, all the same. Any volunteers to teach a wimpish, rusty f/w pilot, who throws R22s around and extremely happily auto-rotated off a 8000 ft mountain in the US (with an instructor), but dreads the very idea of a spin in a plank-wing?
What you say makes a lot of sense. Show the student a fully developed stall and teach them to recover from it ONCE, then emphasise recovery from the incipient stall (see, I'm even remembering the right terminology again
). I seem to remember whole HOURS of falling out of the sky, and feeling sick at the end of it. I think that's how I got scared of something I found fun in the first place. A young male instructor who couldn't stand the fact that a woman twice his age wasn't even remotely nervous, I suspect, though I can't quite remember. Well, if that was the case he achieved his aim! And he's probably responsible for my becoming a helicopter pilot, at least to some extent.The trouble with my doing anything remotely aerobatic is that I do get airsick quite easily. I went for a gliding trial lesson and got persuaded to do a loop; I did it too, and it was fun, but then I felt ill and the instrutor had to do the landing. But I think my next f/w biannual check ride is gonna have to be stalls and spin recovery, all the same. Any volunteers to teach a wimpish, rusty f/w pilot, who throws R22s around and extremely happily auto-rotated off a 8000 ft mountain in the US (with an instructor), but dreads the very idea of a spin in a plank-wing?
The Airborne Express DC8 accident in 1996 illustrates some of the perils of exploring the stall envelope mentioned by john_tullamarine.
This crew, on an evaulation flight after major mods, deliberately stalled their aircraft and were unable to recover. IIRC, it transpired that neither of the crew (one of whom was a chief pilot or training captain) had actually stalled a DC-8 before, and the simulator they used was unrealistic in the stall regime.
This crew, on an evaulation flight after major mods, deliberately stalled their aircraft and were unable to recover. IIRC, it transpired that neither of the crew (one of whom was a chief pilot or training captain) had actually stalled a DC-8 before, and the simulator they used was unrealistic in the stall regime.
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F.F.F.:
I can assure you that a rudder full over, ( full deflection lock ) can occur on some aircraft.
Hint.... find the RAF ferry pilot airplane check book that was used for referenceing how to fly all aircraft that ferry command flew during WW11.
You will find the warning of how to avoid a rudder lock in that book, also the recovery technique. One word of caution the recovery technique as described in the book is only partially correct. There are two methods for recovery, the guys during WW11 just didn't get around to exploring the full envelope of that unusual problem.
I can assure you that rudder lock is possible, I personally have experienced same during in depth evaluations of the flight envelope for air show display purposes. ( At safe altitude. ) One of my friends lost control of his airplane at low altitude due to a double engine failure, ( out of fuel, climb attitude low airspeed low altitude. ) most likely senario was due to fatigue and fear forgot to close throttles before selecting fuel boost pumps on and one engine went to full power during the next few moments of their time on earth it is most likely that the rudder locked ( Based on very reliable eye witnesses descriptions of the airplane attitudes prior to impact with the ground. ) and it was unrecoverable due to low altitude, the airplane impacted in a vertical attitude rotating to the left , very little material left due to impact explosion.
One year prior to this accident I had very carefully briefed the pilot of this airplane on how to recover from an inadvertant rudder lock. He was profficient in the manouver, I know this because he had gone out and induced a full rudder lock and recovered. His co-pilot confirmed this and there is no doubt that they had experienced the condition by the very graphic description of the violent airframe shudder they experienced. However it was impossible to recover from the possible inadvertant rudder lock he encountered the day they died because the very low altitude he was at when he lost control.
And by the way...I am not fear mongering only describing factual and preventable loss of control situations that can be encountered in some airplanes.
NEVER:
Attempt to explore any envelope of flight in "ANY" aircraft beyond what is described in the Pilot Operating Handbook.
Cat Driver:
.....................
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no.
I can assure you that a rudder full over, ( full deflection lock ) can occur on some aircraft.
Hint.... find the RAF ferry pilot airplane check book that was used for referenceing how to fly all aircraft that ferry command flew during WW11.
You will find the warning of how to avoid a rudder lock in that book, also the recovery technique. One word of caution the recovery technique as described in the book is only partially correct. There are two methods for recovery, the guys during WW11 just didn't get around to exploring the full envelope of that unusual problem.
I can assure you that rudder lock is possible, I personally have experienced same during in depth evaluations of the flight envelope for air show display purposes. ( At safe altitude. ) One of my friends lost control of his airplane at low altitude due to a double engine failure, ( out of fuel, climb attitude low airspeed low altitude. ) most likely senario was due to fatigue and fear forgot to close throttles before selecting fuel boost pumps on and one engine went to full power during the next few moments of their time on earth it is most likely that the rudder locked ( Based on very reliable eye witnesses descriptions of the airplane attitudes prior to impact with the ground. ) and it was unrecoverable due to low altitude, the airplane impacted in a vertical attitude rotating to the left , very little material left due to impact explosion.
One year prior to this accident I had very carefully briefed the pilot of this airplane on how to recover from an inadvertant rudder lock. He was profficient in the manouver, I know this because he had gone out and induced a full rudder lock and recovered. His co-pilot confirmed this and there is no doubt that they had experienced the condition by the very graphic description of the violent airframe shudder they experienced. However it was impossible to recover from the possible inadvertant rudder lock he encountered the day they died because the very low altitude he was at when he lost control.
And by the way...I am not fear mongering only describing factual and preventable loss of control situations that can be encountered in some airplanes.
NEVER:
Attempt to explore any envelope of flight in "ANY" aircraft beyond what is described in the Pilot Operating Handbook.
Cat Driver:
.....................
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no.
Last edited by Chuck Ellsworth; 3rd May 2002 at 16:10.
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Whirly
Have flown a bit in the States and undergone training and BFRs, in my experience it is a frequently held view amongst US instructors that stall recovery should be made at the buffet (or stall warner), by unloading back pressure and increasing power to fly away with the minimum loss of altitude.
This is because their focus is on recovering from stalls at low altitude where recovery with any significant loss of altitude might cause impact with terra firma.
I hope this helps to explain your experience.
Before anyone jumps on me for this post, I am neither agreeing nor disagreeing with the view, merely promulgating my experience!
Finals
Have flown a bit in the States and undergone training and BFRs, in my experience it is a frequently held view amongst US instructors that stall recovery should be made at the buffet (or stall warner), by unloading back pressure and increasing power to fly away with the minimum loss of altitude.
This is because their focus is on recovering from stalls at low altitude where recovery with any significant loss of altitude might cause impact with terra firma.
I hope this helps to explain your experience.
Before anyone jumps on me for this post, I am neither agreeing nor disagreeing with the view, merely promulgating my experience!
Finals
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Chuck - at the risk of straying way off whirly's topic - Could you explain the rudder lock phenomenom? I'm trying to visualise it based on that NASA document, but struggling. I doubt I'll be flying anything capable of it, but I do find the whole performance envelope & handling stuff quite interesting.
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Sure Paulo:
The rudder lock problem can occur on several models of the PBY Catalina, namely some PBY5A's and the Super Cat conversion of the PBY.
I flew the PBY for about seven years before I accidently discovered that the rudder will lock full on if you cross the controls at the wrong airspeed and angle of attack.
Briefly I was practicing a manouver for airshow demo purposes ( at a safe high altitude thank christ. ) and at the top of a normal wingover I crossed the controls, the turn was to the right with full right aeliron and I applied full left rudder.
There was a horrific fu...ng bang as the rudder hit the full stop limits and I couldnt move the rudder so I asked the co-pilot to push on the right rudder, we could not move it so I quickly pulled the evevator to full up and induced a stall, the rudder immediately responded and I had regained control.
At that time I was flying for a large waterbomber company and was the training pilot, after discussing what had happened I found out that this was in fact a known problem with some versions of the PBY, the military had noted in their training manual that under certain circumstances, they only listed side slipping, the rudder can aerodynamically lock.
Their recovery method was to close the throttles and increase airspeed to 120 knots, at that point the rudder will unlock.
I prefer my method , mainly because it worked and I have no great desire to practice the manouver again due to the very severe airframe buffet, not to mention I am not to happy with ten or twenty tons of airplane in an uncontrolled flight realm.
The cause is the design of the rudder on some models, they have different balance methods. Some use mass balance and others use a combination of mass and aerodynamic balance, the latter will lock under some flight conditions.
However you must really use an unusual control imput to induce the locked condition.
Maybe someone from N.Z. could add to this as I understand they encountered the probllem several years ago during re-current training with their PBY the former C-FJCV.
I would be interested in knowing about their experience.
Cat Driver:
.......................
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no.
The rudder lock problem can occur on several models of the PBY Catalina, namely some PBY5A's and the Super Cat conversion of the PBY.
I flew the PBY for about seven years before I accidently discovered that the rudder will lock full on if you cross the controls at the wrong airspeed and angle of attack.
Briefly I was practicing a manouver for airshow demo purposes ( at a safe high altitude thank christ. ) and at the top of a normal wingover I crossed the controls, the turn was to the right with full right aeliron and I applied full left rudder.
There was a horrific fu...ng bang as the rudder hit the full stop limits and I couldnt move the rudder so I asked the co-pilot to push on the right rudder, we could not move it so I quickly pulled the evevator to full up and induced a stall, the rudder immediately responded and I had regained control.
At that time I was flying for a large waterbomber company and was the training pilot, after discussing what had happened I found out that this was in fact a known problem with some versions of the PBY, the military had noted in their training manual that under certain circumstances, they only listed side slipping, the rudder can aerodynamically lock.
Their recovery method was to close the throttles and increase airspeed to 120 knots, at that point the rudder will unlock.
I prefer my method , mainly because it worked and I have no great desire to practice the manouver again due to the very severe airframe buffet, not to mention I am not to happy with ten or twenty tons of airplane in an uncontrolled flight realm.
The cause is the design of the rudder on some models, they have different balance methods. Some use mass balance and others use a combination of mass and aerodynamic balance, the latter will lock under some flight conditions.
However you must really use an unusual control imput to induce the locked condition.
Maybe someone from N.Z. could add to this as I understand they encountered the probllem several years ago during re-current training with their PBY the former C-FJCV.
I would be interested in knowing about their experience.
Cat Driver:
.......................
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no.
I think stall should be taught progressively building up to full flap, full power departures as mentioned by previous posters. One stall that isn't often taught is the "turning through finals" stall which scares the crap out of me so I practice it at a decent height!
I also feel strongly that stall should be practiced on a regular basis. If the pax agree, why not chop the power and do a quick stall enroute? Does it REALLY matter if you lose a minute or two on your journey?
englishal have you looked at the 5/8" (15mm) bolts holding the wings of your aeroplane on
Whirl, if you want to do some stalls in an Auster drop me a line. It's stall is quite docile, honest
I also feel strongly that stall should be practiced on a regular basis. If the pax agree, why not chop the power and do a quick stall enroute? Does it REALLY matter if you lose a minute or two on your journey?
englishal have you looked at the 5/8" (15mm) bolts holding the wings of your aeroplane on
Whirl, if you want to do some stalls in an Auster drop me a line. It's stall is quite docile, honest
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Straying a bit off thread I'm afraid, but it sounds as though Rudder Lock is the phenomenon that caused the loss of early Handley Page Halifaxes, (4 engined - twin tail bomber), in WW2.
The tail fins were originally rectangular with the top and bottom leading corners chopped off at an angle.
After many aircraft were lost in inexplicable accidents, the characteristics were investigated and after a crash that killed the test pilots, the tail fins were changed to a rectangular shape.
The tail fins were originally rectangular with the top and bottom leading corners chopped off at an angle.
After many aircraft were lost in inexplicable accidents, the characteristics were investigated and after a crash that killed the test pilots, the tail fins were changed to a rectangular shape.
