North Atlantic Ferry question
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North Atlantic Ferry question
I may have a need to ferry an early 1980's Cessna 182 from the Northeastern US to Scotland and am doing the initial ground work regarding feasibility/costs, the questions i have are as follows:
1. Would ferry pilots balk at an Atlantic crossing in a single engine aircraft with 13000 TT (600 SMOH), even though it has a fresh annual and has been flown and maintained to the absolute highest standards by the same owner since new?
2. Apart from fuel what would be ballpark cost of the ferry be including any safety equipment rental etc. ( this question is obviously aimed at someone who has hired a ferry pilot in the past). I am trying to weigh the ferry costs against putting it in a shipping container.
Disclaimer: I am well aware of other threads on here regarding ferry pilots and know who to steer clear off thanks.
1. Would ferry pilots balk at an Atlantic crossing in a single engine aircraft with 13000 TT (600 SMOH), even though it has a fresh annual and has been flown and maintained to the absolute highest standards by the same owner since new?
2. Apart from fuel what would be ballpark cost of the ferry be including any safety equipment rental etc. ( this question is obviously aimed at someone who has hired a ferry pilot in the past). I am trying to weigh the ferry costs against putting it in a shipping container.
Disclaimer: I am well aware of other threads on here regarding ferry pilots and know who to steer clear off thanks.
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The other question to ask of a 182 is the engine life, although the hours are good, if I remember correctly some 182 engines have an absolute life of 12 years on public transport, they can then only be operated 'on condition' on a private c of a
Cost if you fly it across yourself, or cost if you get a ferry pilot to do it for you?
If the first, VFR or IFR?
If you are doing it yourself VFR, then it is not terribly expensive until you have to wait for good weather - and then it can become very expensive...
DIY IFR is arguably even cheaper.
Getting a guy to do it for you probably adds USD3-4000 to the bill (or perhaps doubles the cost).
Great, truly great, trip!
Cheers, Sam.
If the first, VFR or IFR?
If you are doing it yourself VFR, then it is not terribly expensive until you have to wait for good weather - and then it can become very expensive...
DIY IFR is arguably even cheaper.
Getting a guy to do it for you probably adds USD3-4000 to the bill (or perhaps doubles the cost).
Great, truly great, trip!
Cheers, Sam.
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Depends on your attitude to risk. How fresh is the annual? I'd want it flown a bit after it. Any info on internal engine condition etc?
Personally, and I wait to be pilloried, I wouldn't ferry a single. Purely personal choice. Consider also that while a 182 is a fantastic machine, it is slow and an ice magnet. When are you thinking of doing it?
Plenty of ferry pilots would do it. Speak to Andy in Wick for figures on equipment etc.
FWIW some acquaintances just shipped a new single over. They were of the opinion it was cheaper in their case. Brand new top line sep. winter was the main factor, then cost.
Personally, and I wait to be pilloried, I wouldn't ferry a single. Purely personal choice. Consider also that while a 182 is a fantastic machine, it is slow and an ice magnet. When are you thinking of doing it?
Plenty of ferry pilots would do it. Speak to Andy in Wick for figures on equipment etc.
FWIW some acquaintances just shipped a new single over. They were of the opinion it was cheaper in their case. Brand new top line sep. winter was the main factor, then cost.
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re 13000 TT yeas its 13000, i have to decide by tonight if i am going to put a bid deposit down, I am leaning on passing due to the TT but its a damn fine looking aircraft that I suspect can be had for a very good price, It is a US department of homeland security / border patrol plane with a robertson stol kit being auctioned by the US gov.
google " n6298e auction" and have a look
google " n6298e auction" and have a look
Last edited by piperboy84; 20th May 2013 at 18:57.
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piperboy 84 Be very careful with those Government auctions. I placed a very low bid on a 1986 Beech 58 in 2009. It appeared like a fantastic buy at the time. Fortunately, I had someone not a million miles away who was able to inspect the logs, which revealed no end of issues. I immediately stopped bidding and thankfully was eventually outbid anyway.
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Jetblu:
Yeah thats is the problem, i have been emailed a copy of the last annual done at the end of 2011 which looked ok, however it is now 6 months out of annual and i have to wonder why, i have till thursday if I want to inspect all the logs but that involves flying up to Albuquerque and i am just getting the feeling no matter how good a deal i could get, its a rush job and the 13000tt although not a show stopper is an issue and as one of the other poster hinted the expense of either shipping or ferrying may not make sense with such a high time plane, I shipped my maule over a few years ago but it was essentially new and in hindsight made financial sense, not so sure about this one.
The thing that attracted to this one is it had been used solely by the Border patrol/DHS since new and I assume they are not gonna fly crap or skimp on maintenance, it would be different if it were a government agency that was pulling planes of drug dealers then who knows what you would get
Yeah thats is the problem, i have been emailed a copy of the last annual done at the end of 2011 which looked ok, however it is now 6 months out of annual and i have to wonder why, i have till thursday if I want to inspect all the logs but that involves flying up to Albuquerque and i am just getting the feeling no matter how good a deal i could get, its a rush job and the 13000tt although not a show stopper is an issue and as one of the other poster hinted the expense of either shipping or ferrying may not make sense with such a high time plane, I shipped my maule over a few years ago but it was essentially new and in hindsight made financial sense, not so sure about this one.
The thing that attracted to this one is it had been used solely by the Border patrol/DHS since new and I assume they are not gonna fly crap or skimp on maintenance, it would be different if it were a government agency that was pulling planes of drug dealers then who knows what you would get
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That's at odds with how I read your first post. It sounded like one private owner. I wouldn't be so sure it was well flown or meticulously maintained. Especially without a thorough pre buy, preferably by an expert.
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Silverk, i dont think its at odds, its the same owner and maintainer since new (Uncle Sam) I noted in the annual docs that in addition to any Cessna SB the Border Patrol have there own bulletins and service requirements during annuals which i thought spoke to the standards they maintain them I believe the stol kit was added when the plane was new as it appears it is a requirement of DEA and CPB departments for Cessna's they fly. I would normally never buy without a thorough prebuy but as i said its a rush job i just came across this recently.
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Any Ferry Pilot worth his salt will have his own equipment, so rental cost of kit shouldn't come into it. (I've done it 3 times, have my own kit).
Ballpark figure, KABQ to the UK via the Northern Route (Iqaluit - Kangerlussuaq - Reykjavik) including one way air fare to get to the aircraft, fuel, landing fees, hotels and ferry pilot - $10,000
Ballpark figure, KABQ to the UK via the Northern Route (Iqaluit - Kangerlussuaq - Reykjavik) including one way air fare to get to the aircraft, fuel, landing fees, hotels and ferry pilot - $10,000
Last edited by Chilli Monster; 21st May 2013 at 10:00.
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I've just done that trip myself in my own aircraft, moving back to the UK from US.
It's not a difficult trip though insurance isn't easy to find. You will likely need to use a UK broker.
Costs multiply in the Arctic regions. Avgas is DKK28/litre in Greenland (over £3) and hotels start at about $200/night. There are good cheaper options, but you need to do some ground work.
Weather, diversion and fuel planning is key. I did a mixed IFR/VFR trip but needed to keep well clear of possible icing. That wasn't a problem when the OAT was -20!
If you want to avoid fitting HF radio, you need to stay out of Gander and Shannon OCAs, which may mean crossing further north. BGSF is a good stop on that route (I paid a visit to BGJN to do some sight-seeing).
I may be able to do a deal on some safety/survival equipment, but you can't take live liferafts or jackets across on a commercial flight unless you remove the gas cylinders.
It's not a difficult trip though insurance isn't easy to find. You will likely need to use a UK broker.
Costs multiply in the Arctic regions. Avgas is DKK28/litre in Greenland (over £3) and hotels start at about $200/night. There are good cheaper options, but you need to do some ground work.
Weather, diversion and fuel planning is key. I did a mixed IFR/VFR trip but needed to keep well clear of possible icing. That wasn't a problem when the OAT was -20!
If you want to avoid fitting HF radio, you need to stay out of Gander and Shannon OCAs, which may mean crossing further north. BGSF is a good stop on that route (I paid a visit to BGJN to do some sight-seeing).
I may be able to do a deal on some safety/survival equipment, but you can't take live liferafts or jackets across on a commercial flight unless you remove the gas cylinders.
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I suggest you search for stories about Ferry Pilots / Companies before deciding who you hire (not implying you wouldn't anyway) - there are some fairly blunt comments about certain people in a thread in one of the other forums on this site.
OC619
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Well i ended up not bidding, its at 57k with 24 hours left, which i think if you add the costs of getting the annual up to date, shipping and import tax would make for a pretty pricey 13000tt aircraft, especially if it was more of a punt than fully investigated buy
Next time maybe
Next time maybe
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This one looks like a better known commodity. Low TT. Maybe a deal with a zero timed motor in USA ??
1977 Cessna 182 RG II in Aircraft | eBay Motors
1977 Cessna 182 RG II in Aircraft | eBay Motors
