Sportcruiser Purchase
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Sportcruiser Purchase
Hi All, I am hoping you can give me some good advice here.
I passed my PPL last year after years of wanting to do it. Since that time I have been flying the schools C152s and recently converted across to the PA28 Warrior II just so I could experience a low wing aircraft. Since passing my PPL I have accumulated around 19 hours PIC so the total number of hours now in my logbook is 71 hours. Last weekend, I was lucky enough to be taken up in a Sportcruiser for about half an hour and I truly loved it (many thanks to Brian for letting me have a go).
Since I did my PPL I have wondered what I was going to do with it as it really is just a hobby that I do enjoy and have become hooked. I do not intend getting any further qualifications and my goal is just to fly for fun and sightseeing within the UK only in virtually perfect VFR flying conditions.
I have, for quite a while, considered a Sportcruiser. I have seen them for around £50k-£65k that are only 3 years old or so with very low hours (200-300). That is within my budget and am prepared to spend that amount of money knowing that in the years to come I will lose quite a bit of it if I ever sell it.
I have never owned any type of aircraft before and this will just be used for my wife and myself to do sightseeing trips and travel to various places. I anticipate doing around 100 hours per year. I do realise that renting an aircraft or buying a share would probably be cheaper in the long run but I just feel I want something I can call my own and have the flexibility of having my own aircraft so my heart is now set on a Sportcruiser, but I do have many questions.
First of all, do you think this would be the right aircraft for me. It would be just for my wife (under 50kg) and myself (85kg and 47 years old). The initial cost doesn't worry me too much but the on-going costs do worry me to some extent. I have listed some of my questions below.
1) Is this a reasonable price (£50k-£65k) for a low hour Sportcruiser?
2) What is their reliability like?
3) What would you expect to pay for insurance based on my low hours age etc?
4) What realistic on-going costs should I expect for this aircraft?
5) Are spare parts easy to get for this and at realistic prices?
6) Is it ok to store this aircraft outside?
7) Are there any gotchas I should look out for?
Just a little more information, I used to be heavily into car mechanics and restored classic cars for years so I know my way around engines etc. and an not scared of getting my hands dirty. Not sure if this helps maintaining one.
I am not too worried about storage costs as I will, without a doubt, store it at the flying school where I learnt to fly as it is close to my home and I have good friends down there. The only problem there is that there is a very long waiting list for hangerage so it will almost certainly have to be stored on their grounds outside.
Obviously I would get any potential purchase inspected first by a fully qualified engineer. But how much should I expect to pay for this inspection?
Sorry there are so many questions but I want to go into this with my eyes wide open before I even go and look at one. Any advice or experiences would be gladly accepted.
I passed my PPL last year after years of wanting to do it. Since that time I have been flying the schools C152s and recently converted across to the PA28 Warrior II just so I could experience a low wing aircraft. Since passing my PPL I have accumulated around 19 hours PIC so the total number of hours now in my logbook is 71 hours. Last weekend, I was lucky enough to be taken up in a Sportcruiser for about half an hour and I truly loved it (many thanks to Brian for letting me have a go).
Since I did my PPL I have wondered what I was going to do with it as it really is just a hobby that I do enjoy and have become hooked. I do not intend getting any further qualifications and my goal is just to fly for fun and sightseeing within the UK only in virtually perfect VFR flying conditions.
I have, for quite a while, considered a Sportcruiser. I have seen them for around £50k-£65k that are only 3 years old or so with very low hours (200-300). That is within my budget and am prepared to spend that amount of money knowing that in the years to come I will lose quite a bit of it if I ever sell it.
I have never owned any type of aircraft before and this will just be used for my wife and myself to do sightseeing trips and travel to various places. I anticipate doing around 100 hours per year. I do realise that renting an aircraft or buying a share would probably be cheaper in the long run but I just feel I want something I can call my own and have the flexibility of having my own aircraft so my heart is now set on a Sportcruiser, but I do have many questions.
First of all, do you think this would be the right aircraft for me. It would be just for my wife (under 50kg) and myself (85kg and 47 years old). The initial cost doesn't worry me too much but the on-going costs do worry me to some extent. I have listed some of my questions below.
1) Is this a reasonable price (£50k-£65k) for a low hour Sportcruiser?
2) What is their reliability like?
3) What would you expect to pay for insurance based on my low hours age etc?
4) What realistic on-going costs should I expect for this aircraft?
5) Are spare parts easy to get for this and at realistic prices?
6) Is it ok to store this aircraft outside?
7) Are there any gotchas I should look out for?
Just a little more information, I used to be heavily into car mechanics and restored classic cars for years so I know my way around engines etc. and an not scared of getting my hands dirty. Not sure if this helps maintaining one.
I am not too worried about storage costs as I will, without a doubt, store it at the flying school where I learnt to fly as it is close to my home and I have good friends down there. The only problem there is that there is a very long waiting list for hangerage so it will almost certainly have to be stored on their grounds outside.
Obviously I would get any potential purchase inspected first by a fully qualified engineer. But how much should I expect to pay for this inspection?
Sorry there are so many questions but I want to go into this with my eyes wide open before I even go and look at one. Any advice or experiences would be gladly accepted.
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Hi
I have recently Nov 11, bought a Sportcruiser to use very much as you describe.
I am delighted with it as an aircraft, having previously flown Cessnas, Pipers as well as Taylorcraft and Stampe.
Its a great little touring aircraft (subject to baggage space) and will go into most small strips with ease.
I have a factory built aircraft with BRS, glass cockpit and autopilot and the interior is stunning compared to a elderly school plane.
In terms of your specific questions.
1) Is this a reasonable price (£50k-£65k) for a low hour Sportcruiser?
That seems to be the market price for those built from kits more for factory built
2) What is their reliability like?
No problems so far
3) What would you expect to pay for insurance based on my low hours age etc?
I am paying c£1500
4) What realistic on-going costs should I expect for this aircraft?
My annual was c£1900
5) Are spare parts easy to get for this and at realistic prices?
Yes and there is an active user group who can help
6) Is it ok to store this aircraft outside?
No
7) Are there any gotchas I should look out for?
Not that I have found so far
I have recently Nov 11, bought a Sportcruiser to use very much as you describe.
I am delighted with it as an aircraft, having previously flown Cessnas, Pipers as well as Taylorcraft and Stampe.
Its a great little touring aircraft (subject to baggage space) and will go into most small strips with ease.
I have a factory built aircraft with BRS, glass cockpit and autopilot and the interior is stunning compared to a elderly school plane.
In terms of your specific questions.
1) Is this a reasonable price (£50k-£65k) for a low hour Sportcruiser?
That seems to be the market price for those built from kits more for factory built
2) What is their reliability like?
No problems so far
3) What would you expect to pay for insurance based on my low hours age etc?
I am paying c£1500
4) What realistic on-going costs should I expect for this aircraft?
My annual was c£1900
5) Are spare parts easy to get for this and at realistic prices?
Yes and there is an active user group who can help
6) Is it ok to store this aircraft outside?
No
7) Are there any gotchas I should look out for?
Not that I have found so far
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I own a Zodiac 601xl - the original version of the design in many ways. CZAW 'improved' the xl design into one of their own - the Sportcruiser. Czech Sport subsequently acquired the company - by means which have entertained many people who were not directly involved.
Leaving an aircraft like this outside is less than ideal - the wing loading is low - so it tends to move around a lot and control and control surface damage is a real possibility.
Sportcruisers have a number of issues with the nosegear at the moment - I presume Czech Sport will eventually come up with a fix. The xl can be built from alloy stock materials, the Sportcruiser has many more 'manufactured' parts and so you would rely upon factory support.
In the past there have been exhaust cracking issues - which should have been adressed by now.
The big issue is whether you buy a kit or factory built. The kit built gives you a lot more flexibility in terms of repair / modification.
In essence the Sportcruiser looks good, has performance which is pretty similar to many aircraft in the same case - which is exceeded by a number and not equalled by others. For what it is, I think it is over-priced - but then I have a very similar aircraft which is worth half the cost of a Sportcruiser!
The final point (I'm sure Rod1 will be along shortly) - the wing loading is low as I've said and I certainly often find myself slowing down to save me and the airframe.
Rather than deciding on a single design I would suggest you look at a variety of this class of aircraft - they are all compromises, but some may well fit you better than others.
Leaving an aircraft like this outside is less than ideal - the wing loading is low - so it tends to move around a lot and control and control surface damage is a real possibility.
Sportcruisers have a number of issues with the nosegear at the moment - I presume Czech Sport will eventually come up with a fix. The xl can be built from alloy stock materials, the Sportcruiser has many more 'manufactured' parts and so you would rely upon factory support.
In the past there have been exhaust cracking issues - which should have been adressed by now.
The big issue is whether you buy a kit or factory built. The kit built gives you a lot more flexibility in terms of repair / modification.
In essence the Sportcruiser looks good, has performance which is pretty similar to many aircraft in the same case - which is exceeded by a number and not equalled by others. For what it is, I think it is over-priced - but then I have a very similar aircraft which is worth half the cost of a Sportcruiser!
The final point (I'm sure Rod1 will be along shortly) - the wing loading is low as I've said and I certainly often find myself slowing down to save me and the airframe.
Rather than deciding on a single design I would suggest you look at a variety of this class of aircraft - they are all compromises, but some may well fit you better than others.
Having owned a share in a Cirrus for some time, I thought I would branch out and buy my own aeroplane outright. For several reasons I looked at new; Sportcruiser, Breezer, Tecnam and Aquila. All new were in excess of £100K, though 30% less for a pre-owned.
The advantages of this sort of aircraft, operating on a permit are mainly cost. Certainly they are more economical to run.
However, there are many disadvantages of these aeroplanes. Most are not permitted to fly at night, IMC or turn upside down for example.
Have you considered something like a Beagle Pup? They are a joy to fly and not too expensive to run. Try one and see.
I rejected a modern 'plastic microlite' and bought a Scottish Aviation Bulldog instead, the Pup's big brother. OK, it is not cheap to run, but is fully aerobatic, fully IMC and night capable, easy to fly and is a total British thoroughbred!
The advantages of this sort of aircraft, operating on a permit are mainly cost. Certainly they are more economical to run.
However, there are many disadvantages of these aeroplanes. Most are not permitted to fly at night, IMC or turn upside down for example.
Have you considered something like a Beagle Pup? They are a joy to fly and not too expensive to run. Try one and see.
I rejected a modern 'plastic microlite' and bought a Scottish Aviation Bulldog instead, the Pup's big brother. OK, it is not cheap to run, but is fully aerobatic, fully IMC and night capable, easy to fly and is a total British thoroughbred!
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For that kind of money a decent RV could be purchased. In my opinion, no contest. Robust, 140+ kt cruise, good weight carrying ability and excellent range. Due to fuel costs, not a bimbler, but a much more efficient aircraft for the same price.
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Where did you learn how to fly Stevo? There is a sports cruiser at Damyns hall (upminster) that belongs to one of the instructors, and two of the pilots from Damyns live in wickford, and I'm on Canvey.
Dave
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Before you buy!
Check the landing gear for cracks, the nose gear highlights in the reports but the main legs are also subject to cracks.
Check the inboard main spar caps for loose rivets, normally the lower spar caps.
Don't touch an aircraft that has been used for any form of training.
Check the inboard main spar caps for loose rivets, normally the lower spar caps.
Don't touch an aircraft that has been used for any form of training.
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I just bought a tecnam sierra a couple of weeks ago. Sport cruiser was on my short list... It's a great aircraft, but tecnam has a couple of advantages. There Is a sport cruiser on the field I fly from, and it is stunning.
Anyway...
1. Seems a reasonable price, that's what I paid.
2. Reliability is about the Rotax more than the airframe really. Pretty well proven now.
3. I Pay 1600
4. If its a good aircraft, and on a permit, very little... Depending if you do maint yourself or not (oil change etc). If nothing major goes wrong, which is normal, running costs are in low hundreds.
5. I haven't heard if any spares problems.
6. Mixed views here.... But I would park one outside as long as the canopy is covered and all controls are locked so they can't flap. I agree it's not ideal, but it wouldn't stop me buying one if you have no choice.
7. Gotchas:
A. It's a castoring nose wheel and its poor on sloppy mud.
B. in a crosswind (A) applies in double measures
C. Don't leave canopy open in sunshine or it magnifies the sun and smoke comes out of the dash!
D. Fragile nosewheel apparently, but fine if you fly it normally.... Probably not so great if used for training.
It's a 100kt aircraft (ish) on a fixed pitch prop and 110kts on a woodcomp VP. Obviously it will go faster but that is a normal 75% cruise at 18 litres per hour.
The above gives everything I know about the type. I chose the tecnam because its 130kts at 18 litres and a steerable nosewheel.... But as I said, I would happily have had a sport cruiser. There's an LAA tecnam versus sport cruiser article out there somewhere that gives a bit more insight.
Anyway...
1. Seems a reasonable price, that's what I paid.
2. Reliability is about the Rotax more than the airframe really. Pretty well proven now.
3. I Pay 1600
4. If its a good aircraft, and on a permit, very little... Depending if you do maint yourself or not (oil change etc). If nothing major goes wrong, which is normal, running costs are in low hundreds.
5. I haven't heard if any spares problems.
6. Mixed views here.... But I would park one outside as long as the canopy is covered and all controls are locked so they can't flap. I agree it's not ideal, but it wouldn't stop me buying one if you have no choice.
7. Gotchas:
A. It's a castoring nose wheel and its poor on sloppy mud.
B. in a crosswind (A) applies in double measures
C. Don't leave canopy open in sunshine or it magnifies the sun and smoke comes out of the dash!
D. Fragile nosewheel apparently, but fine if you fly it normally.... Probably not so great if used for training.
It's a 100kt aircraft (ish) on a fixed pitch prop and 110kts on a woodcomp VP. Obviously it will go faster but that is a normal 75% cruise at 18 litres per hour.
The above gives everything I know about the type. I chose the tecnam because its 130kts at 18 litres and a steerable nosewheel.... But as I said, I would happily have had a sport cruiser. There's an LAA tecnam versus sport cruiser article out there somewhere that gives a bit more insight.
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What a small world. I also live in Wickford. I learnt to fly at Stapleford.
Thank you all so much for your replies. It is really strengthening my decision to get one. It seems my only downside is having to keep it outside.
Thank you all so much for your replies. It is really strengthening my decision to get one. It seems my only downside is having to keep it outside.
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Tie downs
If you decide to keep the aircraft outside it is essential that it is tied down very well being so light even fairly light winds will pick the aircraft up, I have seen one Sportcruiser that has been on its back and it I'd not a pretty picture with the fin spar pushed out of the bottom of the fuselage.
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Until this thread, I had not heard of the Tecnam. I cannot seem to find out much information about them. I found their website but it doesn't seem to say much about the Sierra and I can only find one for sale that doesn't have pictures or much detail and doesn't even mention a price.
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Like Carl I also decided on a Tecnam P2002JF having looked closely at the Sportcruiser and also considered an RV6A option that was available at the time. You should look a bit more at the Tecnam option, since they are widely sold around the world, with a good user base for comment. The Sportcruiser is a slightly sexier looking machine than the Tecnam, but my view is that the Tecnam is more robust, especially around the canopy and nosewheel. Both are nice to fly, but I prefer the Tecam. A local flying school here in WA has had 3 new nosewheels on their Cruiser but I understand that they attribute most of the damage to rough GA pilots, rather than ab initio rec pilots trained on the Cruiser.
There was a Sportcruiser left outside at my home airfield and it was a sad looking little aircraft after only 1 season, despite having a canopy and fuselage cover. Personally, I wouldn't consider leaving any LSA, even the all-metal ones, in the open. I won't comment on the maintenance figures since the UK costs are quite different to the Australian ones. Some of the figures quoted do seem high, though, relative to what I pay here for the P2002.
Despite having decided (somewhat grudgingly) against the RV for my own circumstances, it would indeed be worth looking at that option. However, I mean no disrespect in saying that if you're still relatively inexperienced, an RV might not be a wise choice unless you can arrange a bit of mentoring. They are pretty hot little aircraft, which of course is why we love them. And, of course, they are aerobatic, in a sedate sort of way. While you won't get that in any of the LSAs, at least the P2002JF is a certified version with good instrumentation options and, nowadays, NVFR approval.
There was a Sportcruiser left outside at my home airfield and it was a sad looking little aircraft after only 1 season, despite having a canopy and fuselage cover. Personally, I wouldn't consider leaving any LSA, even the all-metal ones, in the open. I won't comment on the maintenance figures since the UK costs are quite different to the Australian ones. Some of the figures quoted do seem high, though, relative to what I pay here for the P2002.
Despite having decided (somewhat grudgingly) against the RV for my own circumstances, it would indeed be worth looking at that option. However, I mean no disrespect in saying that if you're still relatively inexperienced, an RV might not be a wise choice unless you can arrange a bit of mentoring. They are pretty hot little aircraft, which of course is why we love them. And, of course, they are aerobatic, in a sedate sort of way. While you won't get that in any of the LSAs, at least the P2002JF is a certified version with good instrumentation options and, nowadays, NVFR approval.
Last edited by tecman; 19th Feb 2013 at 11:52.
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Sportcruiser
Just one correction on one of the comments made, as an owner of a Sportcruiser with over 300 hours flying it I can assure you it handles a cross wind fine.
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I have lost the plot a bit on CZAW, its various iterations, its deal with Piper and its multiple UK distributors. What is the current situation re the factory and UK dealer?
What happens to the Piper aircraft when the EASA permit runes out?
Rod1
What happens to the Piper aircraft when the EASA permit runes out?
Rod1
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Rod 1
There is no current UK dealer for the Sportcruiser, from what I can understand the only Piper involvement was in name & business ties, I don't think that Piper had any involvement in the EASA certification issues.
I am given to understand that Piper dropped their involvement with the aircraft due to the way the rights to the aircraft was distributed within the Czech companies.
If anyone knows any better I am happy to be guided by them on this issue.
I am given to understand that Piper dropped their involvement with the aircraft due to the way the rights to the aircraft was distributed within the Czech companies.
If anyone knows any better I am happy to be guided by them on this issue.
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I may have misremembered but I think the Pipersport was sold in the UK with an EASA permit which could not be renewed. The CAA warned that it was not sure what would happen if the permit ran out and the factory had not gained its “ELA1” manufacturing approval. Some of the factory built SC must in fact be Pipersport aircraft.
Rod1
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Having done some business with CZAW and being happy with my dealings with Chip Erwin I watched th Czech Sport takeover with some chagrin.
To see Czech Sport being 'ripped off' in China is a richly ironic experience. To those who use the sword etc ec.
To Steevo - do not buy any aircraft if you have simply seen something you like the look of. Aircraft embody far too many compromises for that sort of approach to work. Your comments to date simply illustrate you have not looked at what else is available or what the issues are.
Good to ask the questions - but the answers needs careful thought. The 'usual' routeis to buy into a syndicate running a shared aircraft, gained the appreciable amount of knowledge and understanding - which is really necessary to make an informed decision, and then make a purchase.
The obvious analogy is to think you really need a Lotus Elise - 'cos you like the looks of it - when unfortunately what you really need is a secondhand Zafira. Sad but that is life!
To see Czech Sport being 'ripped off' in China is a richly ironic experience. To those who use the sword etc ec.
To Steevo - do not buy any aircraft if you have simply seen something you like the look of. Aircraft embody far too many compromises for that sort of approach to work. Your comments to date simply illustrate you have not looked at what else is available or what the issues are.
Good to ask the questions - but the answers needs careful thought. The 'usual' routeis to buy into a syndicate running a shared aircraft, gained the appreciable amount of knowledge and understanding - which is really necessary to make an informed decision, and then make a purchase.
The obvious analogy is to think you really need a Lotus Elise - 'cos you like the looks of it - when unfortunately what you really need is a secondhand Zafira. Sad but that is life!
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To see Czech Sport being 'ripped off' in China is a richly ironic experience.
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Sportcruiser or Tecnam
Steevo
Have a look at my Tecnam G-CEVM to compare it with the sportcruiser.
I liked the way they fly so much I have ordered a new 4 seat Tecnam to replace my lovely 2 seat p2002
If you come to Goodwood you would be welcome to check it out.
Have a look at my Tecnam G-CEVM to compare it with the sportcruiser.
I liked the way they fly so much I have ordered a new 4 seat Tecnam to replace my lovely 2 seat p2002
If you come to Goodwood you would be welcome to check it out.