Acting as a safety pilot and logging hours
Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Scotland
Age: 33
Posts: 4
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Acting as a safety pilot and logging hours
Hello
Iv been thinking of a situation and hope someone can answer it- There are 2 pilots one who is qualified to fly the c152 and one pilot who flies the PA-28. The pilots are planning to fly to Carlisle Airfield in the c152 and both pilots are only PPL qualified. The C152 pilot flies to Carlisle but can the pilot who has never flown the cessna fly it home and the cessna pilot act as as a safety pilot and log both trips as PIC time?
Iv been thinking of a situation and hope someone can answer it- There are 2 pilots one who is qualified to fly the c152 and one pilot who flies the PA-28. The pilots are planning to fly to Carlisle Airfield in the c152 and both pilots are only PPL qualified. The C152 pilot flies to Carlisle but can the pilot who has never flown the cessna fly it home and the cessna pilot act as as a safety pilot and log both trips as PIC time?
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Amsterdam
Posts: 4,598
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
A "safety pilot" doesn't log anything, ever, in a single pilot aircraft. Not even when he's an "official" safety pilot because the PIC is required to fly with a safety pilot for medical reasons. (And if I'm not mistaken that's the only context in which there is a definition of 'safety pilot' in the first place.)
Last edited by BackPacker; 19th Dec 2012 at 20:59.
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: On the wireless...
Posts: 1,901
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The pilot who is qualified to fly the C152 would have an SEP rating and therefore qualified to fly a PA28. (Whether that pilot is permitted to fly the PA28 is an entirely different matter and down to the owner or operator of the PA28. It has nothing to do with Flight Crew Licensing.)
The pilot who is qualified to fly the PA28 would have an SEP rating and therefore qualified to fly a C152. (Whether that pilot is permitted to fly the C152 is an entirely different matter and down to the owner or operator of the C152. It has nothing to do with Flight Crew Licensing.)
Both the C152 and PA28 are Single Pilot Aircraft (ie. they require only one qualified pilot)
There can be only one PIC at any one time. Who is PIC when is determined before the flight takes place.
The 'other pilot' is not a member of the Flight Crew because it is an SPA.
The 'other pilot' is merely a passenger.
Now if either one of you is an FI or an FE then that would be a different matter...
Cue 'the rule-benders'...
The pilot who is qualified to fly the PA28 would have an SEP rating and therefore qualified to fly a C152. (Whether that pilot is permitted to fly the C152 is an entirely different matter and down to the owner or operator of the C152. It has nothing to do with Flight Crew Licensing.)
Both the C152 and PA28 are Single Pilot Aircraft (ie. they require only one qualified pilot)
There can be only one PIC at any one time. Who is PIC when is determined before the flight takes place.
The 'other pilot' is not a member of the Flight Crew because it is an SPA.
The 'other pilot' is merely a passenger.
Now if either one of you is an FI or an FE then that would be a different matter...
Cue 'the rule-benders'...
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: In the boot of my car!
Posts: 5,982
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Wow a 152 and PA28 ? pretty sure they need separate type ratings ? 
As long as you do not crash the thing and do not both log P1 log it left or right!
Pace
As long as you do not crash the thing and do not both log P1 log it left or right!
Pace
Last edited by Pace; 19th Dec 2012 at 20:45.
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: UK
Posts: 681
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
No1P
You say you are a PPL - would I be correct in thinking you've only recently
obtained your License?
Do you think a Flying Club/School would be happy allowing one of their aircraft to be flown
by someone who had never flown that make before
(even if they knew you were sitting next to the pilot in order to "advise")?
Two, low hour, PPL holders in the same aircraft with the PIC totally
unfamiliar with it, and hence having to rely on advice from his passenger,
sounds like a recipe for disaster and, I would suggest, is also illegal, given
that before flight it is the captains responsibility to ensure the intended
flight can be conducted safely.
You've posted a few times on "Can I do this?". If you're just shooting the breeze then fine;
but if you are actually contemplating doing these things I suggest you also ask yourself
"Should I do this? Is it a good idea?"
You say you are a PPL - would I be correct in thinking you've only recently
obtained your License?
Do you think a Flying Club/School would be happy allowing one of their aircraft to be flown
by someone who had never flown that make before
(even if they knew you were sitting next to the pilot in order to "advise")?
Two, low hour, PPL holders in the same aircraft with the PIC totally
unfamiliar with it, and hence having to rely on advice from his passenger,
sounds like a recipe for disaster and, I would suggest, is also illegal, given
that before flight it is the captains responsibility to ensure the intended
flight can be conducted safely.
You've posted a few times on "Can I do this?". If you're just shooting the breeze then fine;
but if you are actually contemplating doing these things I suggest you also ask yourself
"Should I do this? Is it a good idea?"
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: 23, Railway Cuttings, East Cheam
Age: 68
Posts: 3,115
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
As has been pointed out, a safety pilot doesn't log anything in a SEP. Most clubs would want you to do a high wing and low wing check out at least. Especially in the case of a 152 'cos when you turn the steering wheel something actually happens.
PS Also as an aside make sure you check the W+B. Some 152's don't like two well built gentlemen on board and a tank full of petrol. Not suggesting you are both well built of course but just in case you are.
PS Also as an aside make sure you check the W+B. Some 152's don't like two well built gentlemen on board and a tank full of petrol. Not suggesting you are both well built of course but just in case you are.
Last edited by thing; 19th Dec 2012 at 22:19.
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: In the boot of my car!
Posts: 5,982
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
LA
And to think they sent newly qualified pilots up in Spitfires with barely any hours!
A Cessna 150 to a PA28 now that is some going?
If they are both basic PPLs they can legally log the hours depending on who is the handling pilot left or right.
Most training flights are illegal in the 150 but the training organisations do not seem to care and have never done!
Pace
And to think they sent newly qualified pilots up in Spitfires with barely any hours!
A Cessna 150 to a PA28 now that is some going?
If they are both basic PPLs they can legally log the hours depending on who is the handling pilot left or right.
PS Also as an aside make sure you check the W+B. Some 152's don't like two well built gentlemen on board and a tank full of petrol. Not suggesting you are both well built of course but just in case you are.
Pace
Last edited by Pace; 19th Dec 2012 at 22:26.
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: 23, Railway Cuttings, East Cheam
Age: 68
Posts: 3,115
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Yeah but they sent young men up in Spitfires with low hours out of neccessity. A lot of them died and not through enemy action. A typical 28 does fly differently (OK land differently in different crosswind conditions) to a typical Cessna product, so what's wrong with spending 20 minutes in the cct with an instructor just to get the gen? It's not like it's a conversion onto a 747.
Edit: I know most 150/2's probably take off overweight on training but that doesn't mean it's OK. How many accident reports have you read where the pilot fills a 28 to the gunnels, puts three pax on board and promptly gets caught out by the laws of physics? Because it's always been 'OK' before?
Edit: I know most 150/2's probably take off overweight on training but that doesn't mean it's OK. How many accident reports have you read where the pilot fills a 28 to the gunnels, puts three pax on board and promptly gets caught out by the laws of physics? Because it's always been 'OK' before?
Last edited by thing; 19th Dec 2012 at 22:35.
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: In the boot of my car!
Posts: 5,982
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
so what's wrong with spending 20 minutes in the cct with an instructor just to get the gen?
Sadly the training organisations will fleece you out of a few hours to jump from one very basic simple aircraft to another.
for who s benefit?
Pace
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: 23, Railway Cuttings, East Cheam
Age: 68
Posts: 3,115
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I see your point, but then I would say 20/30 minutes and half a dozen landings in a brisk crosswind would be enough. You get familiar with it by flying it around, but the flying around is much the same in a Piper as a Cessna.Certainly where I fly from that's what happens. Oval circuits get more landings in as well. Can't speak for the fleecers of whom I'm sure there are plenty. I fly 152/172/28 variants and can't say I felt under trained after a few landings.
Last edited by thing; 19th Dec 2012 at 22:42.
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: UK
Posts: 158
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Our club checkout for different (simple) SEP types such as C152, PA28-160, C172 can range from 30 minutes to as much as is needed by the student to handle the transition.
One thing not yet mentioned is the insurance side of things. While both parties may be SEP rated, and therefore technically legal from a licensing standpoint, are they both insured on this aeroplane?
If the aircraft is a club one, they will probably insist on a club checkout, in which case flying as P1 without the checkout will probably invalidate the insurance and is therefore illegal from an operations perspective. If the aircraft is privately owned, most (not all) are run on the basis of named pilots. information on the number of hours on type is usually requested, and an appropriate checkout with an instructor is often advised.
For the sake of a relatively short amount of time, it's really not hard to get a check on a different type. Would the PA28 pilot know where to find the fuel pump on the C152? And would the Cessna pilot know what do do with the flaps in the event of loss of power on a PA28? And vice versa in each case? (Both trick questions, obviously, but if you don't know the answers the you can see how 30 minutes with an instructor is a good idea.)
One thing not yet mentioned is the insurance side of things. While both parties may be SEP rated, and therefore technically legal from a licensing standpoint, are they both insured on this aeroplane?
If the aircraft is a club one, they will probably insist on a club checkout, in which case flying as P1 without the checkout will probably invalidate the insurance and is therefore illegal from an operations perspective. If the aircraft is privately owned, most (not all) are run on the basis of named pilots. information on the number of hours on type is usually requested, and an appropriate checkout with an instructor is often advised.
For the sake of a relatively short amount of time, it's really not hard to get a check on a different type. Would the PA28 pilot know where to find the fuel pump on the C152? And would the Cessna pilot know what do do with the flaps in the event of loss of power on a PA28? And vice versa in each case? (Both trick questions, obviously, but if you don't know the answers the you can see how 30 minutes with an instructor is a good idea.)
Join Date: May 2001
Posts: 10,815
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Because its very rare that instructors do W&B
It would be better to say that most flights after filling with fuel are outside M&B unless they are operated from known tight airfields eg Neitherthorpe.
Or you have a 60kg instructor.
It would be better to say that most flights after filling with fuel are outside M&B unless they are operated from known tight airfields eg Neitherthorpe.
Or you have a 60kg instructor.
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: In the boot of my car!
Posts: 5,982
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
MD
If you do a weight and balance calc on the 150 you would be surprised at the amount of training flights which go off overweight.
You see instructors and hefty students climb into a tanked 150 and those flights are illegal but blind eyes turned.
Infact you would be shocked at how little can be legally carried in a 150!
Pace
If you do a weight and balance calc on the 150 you would be surprised at the amount of training flights which go off overweight.
You see instructors and hefty students climb into a tanked 150 and those flights are illegal but blind eyes turned.
Infact you would be shocked at how little can be legally carried in a 150!
Pace
Last edited by Pace; 20th Dec 2012 at 10:06.
Join Date: May 2001
Posts: 10,815
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
its also amazing what they can get off the ground with.
Saw a long range tanked C152, full fuel, a rugby playing pilot, a fat chuffer photographer, his big bag of kit, bag of tescos, two bags of over night kit load up on the apron and taxi off with the gear noticably bending.
Must have been over 100kg over weight.
Saw a long range tanked C152, full fuel, a rugby playing pilot, a fat chuffer photographer, his big bag of kit, bag of tescos, two bags of over night kit load up on the apron and taxi off with the gear noticably bending.
Must have been over 100kg over weight.
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Belgium
Posts: 381
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
A "safety pilot" doesn't log anything, ever, in a single pilot aircraft. Not even when he's an "official" safety pilot
...or you have a 60kg instructor.
Join Date: May 2001
Posts: 10,815
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hold on a second : Under FAR 61.51, if the safety pilot is a required crewmember, and he is responsible for the safety of flight, he does log PIC time. The example that springs to mind is the safety pilot when the pilot in the left hand seat is doing instrument approaches or holds under the hood.
As I am pretty certain this will be couple fo EASA PPL's doing the trip its not going to change things.
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Amsterdam
Posts: 4,598
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The FAA system is indeed different and there are situations there where no less than three people can log PIC/P1 simultaneously. But as the OP is in Scotland, I have assumed that the question would refer to EASA rules.
(How do you make an in-flight decision with three Pilots In Command on board? Do you vote? Or is there a Super-Pilot-In-Command role as well?
)
(How do you make an in-flight decision with three Pilots In Command on board? Do you vote? Or is there a Super-Pilot-In-Command role as well?
)