Acting as a safety pilot and logging hours
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Aachen
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Hi,
I won't be too sure about that. After all, the 150/152 is a two seat aircraft and with the instructors' weight being mostly constant, he just has to do w&b once to know the airplanes limits and start from there. I am just stepping up to the C150 (i.e. making my FI-Rating) and was supprised as how much that bird can haul, legally. In case of our Clubs 150, this adds to 240 kg payload. Put in an 85 kg instructor and you can load 130 kg student and 36 liters usable fuel, witch longs for an hour of traffic circuits and half an hour reserve. It's not the usual overweight microlight or powered glider. Most instructors I know have made these calculations and act that way. Besides, it is a valuable lesson for the student to do the calculations once more and present it to the instructor.
I am sure, there is much neglect to w&b, but this will be independent of the use of a specific aircraft or flying mission. And mostly, this isn't done by instructors (or aerospace engineers for that matter), but by those kinds of pilot who tend to be careless in all matters of flight. Usually that kind of pilot, who thinks GAFOR would be a sufficient weather briefing.
many happy landings,
Because its very rare that instructors do W&B
I am sure, there is much neglect to w&b, but this will be independent of the use of a specific aircraft or flying mission. And mostly, this isn't done by instructors (or aerospace engineers for that matter), but by those kinds of pilot who tend to be careless in all matters of flight. Usually that kind of pilot, who thinks GAFOR would be a sufficient weather briefing.
many happy landings,
Saw a long range tanked C152, full fuel, a rugby playing pilot, a fat chuffer photographer, his big bag of kit, bag of tescos, two bags of over night kit load up on the apron and taxi off with the gear noticably bending.
Must have been over 100kg over weight.
Must have been over 100kg over weight.
Join Date: May 2001
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Well if you fly out of Merzbruck I am not suprised you work it out. Especially in summer.
And most schools in the UK fill it because its a royal pain in the backside getting fuel. And they usually fill up on the way back in without a clue what the next flight has on.
Alot of schools also have over 1000m of tarmac as well.
Full tanks is about 70kg Which then brings you down to 170kg so max 85kg per person.
Long range you have a 100kg onboard.
Quite alot of students haven't seen 85kg since they were teenagers same with the instructors.
Doesn't help when quite a few examinors who are well over 100kg will quite happily declare 85kg request full tanks then when the student states they are still over weight by 4kg declares that they have just been for a dump so the student can remove 4kg from the declared weights.
And those weights are for the manufactures dry weights most if not all old cessnas will be 20-30kg more than that.
And most schools in the UK fill it because its a royal pain in the backside getting fuel. And they usually fill up on the way back in without a clue what the next flight has on.
Alot of schools also have over 1000m of tarmac as well.
Full tanks is about 70kg Which then brings you down to 170kg so max 85kg per person.
Long range you have a 100kg onboard.
Quite alot of students haven't seen 85kg since they were teenagers same with the instructors.
Doesn't help when quite a few examinors who are well over 100kg will quite happily declare 85kg request full tanks then when the student states they are still over weight by 4kg declares that they have just been for a dump so the student can remove 4kg from the declared weights.
And those weights are for the manufactures dry weights most if not all old cessnas will be 20-30kg more than that.
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I most certainly did not B2N2 because the CAA would do nothing about it.
They would have almost certaily replied that they required proof that it was overloaded.
And watching the bowser stick over 100 ltrs onboard then watch two chunky blokes get on with baggage and abundance of pies and juice does not make it evidence.
And the event happening Scotland will mean they won't touch it with a barge pole.
They would have almost certaily replied that they required proof that it was overloaded.
And watching the bowser stick over 100 ltrs onboard then watch two chunky blokes get on with baggage and abundance of pies and juice does not make it evidence.
And the event happening Scotland will mean they won't touch it with a barge pole.
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BackPacker posted that the only bit of law relating to safety pilots is in relation to medical issues. (“A "safety pilot" doesn't log anything, ever, in a single pilot aircraft. Not even when he's an "official" safety pilot because the PIC is required to fly with a safety pilot for medical reasons. (And if I'm not mistaken that's the only context in which there is a definition of 'safety pilot' in the first place.)”
Re definition of 'safety pilot', not so, I believe.
From a paper I wrote in 2000, having researched safety pilot issues for the BGA:
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I have considered the following two situations recognised as involving safety pilots;
The only case referred to Rules of the Air, as far as I or the CAA could find, is for simulated instrument flying. Rule 6 of “Rules of the Air” (see section 7.1 of BGA Laws and Rules) does not require a safety pilot in this situation to be an instructor, or to be P1; only to have an adequate field of vision, to have access to dual controls, and by implication to be able to assume temporary control should that be needed to avoid conflict with other aircraft etc.
The other well-recognised situation is the need for a safety pilot in the case of a degree of incapacity for medical reasons. I am advised that such a safety pilot need not be designated P1. If the safety pilot is there only to be a better set of eyes or limbs, there is no need for an instructor’s rating, provided that no element of instruction or supervision is required - it is akin to mutual flying. Even if the safety pilot has an instructor’s rating, but no element of instruction or supervision is intended at the outset of the flight, the instructor would not be on duty as an instructor, whether or not P1, . . .
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I agree with others that only one can log P1/PIC time and the other cannot. As to which, that has to be determined before the flight.
Chris N
Re definition of 'safety pilot', not so, I believe.
From a paper I wrote in 2000, having researched safety pilot issues for the BGA:
--------
I have considered the following two situations recognised as involving safety pilots;
The only case referred to Rules of the Air, as far as I or the CAA could find, is for simulated instrument flying. Rule 6 of “Rules of the Air” (see section 7.1 of BGA Laws and Rules) does not require a safety pilot in this situation to be an instructor, or to be P1; only to have an adequate field of vision, to have access to dual controls, and by implication to be able to assume temporary control should that be needed to avoid conflict with other aircraft etc.
The other well-recognised situation is the need for a safety pilot in the case of a degree of incapacity for medical reasons. I am advised that such a safety pilot need not be designated P1. If the safety pilot is there only to be a better set of eyes or limbs, there is no need for an instructor’s rating, provided that no element of instruction or supervision is required - it is akin to mutual flying. Even if the safety pilot has an instructor’s rating, but no element of instruction or supervision is intended at the outset of the flight, the instructor would not be on duty as an instructor, whether or not P1, . . .
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I agree with others that only one can log P1/PIC time and the other cannot. As to which, that has to be determined before the flight.
Chris N
Last edited by chrisN; 20th Dec 2012 at 14:27.
I agree with others that only one can log P1/PIC time and the other cannot. As to which, that has to be determined before the flight.
Wow a 152 and PA28 ? pretty sure they need separate type ratings ?
