Checklists - query

[Miken100]

I liked your proposal mrmum in #17; memory items when on the move and written when stationary and on reflection realise this is how I operate....

In the many, many jumpseats I sat in (before 911) I don't think I ever saw a professional crew not refer to checklists (sorry about the double negative)... it was one of the things I saw going on in cockpits that made me feel safer as a passenger!

[foxmoth]

Single pilot checks while moving should be idealy be done from memory, on the ground, stationary it very much depends on how much you fly, though doing it from the checklist in this situation will never be wrong. Multi crew can use checks at all stages for exactly that reason - one can fly while the other reads, single crew whilst flying you have to do both so not so good.

[riverrock83]

I've been taught not to use checklists. If you are methodical then you shouldn't miss anything on light aircraft. You can walk round the aircraft checking everything that doesn't require power in one circuit, then perhaps a second circuit for services.

Before I started I was given what I should check along with pics of the aircraft and my instructor went round it in detail with me (and went round it with me the first few times).

I have generic mneumonics for pre take off, pre landing, after take off and emergencies ingrained in my skull. Some letters don't make sense on this aircraft but do on others, but are taught as standard so it is easier to move from one aircraft to another. I've successfully used the same mneumonics with a Bolkow Junior, PA28 (has a separate primer) and SA Bulldog (VP Prop). If I'm not sure of something, I have checklists available to me (whats that hot start procedure for an injected engine again...).

I can't see whats wrong with that. It means I know what's behind every check so I'm not blindly list following. Last time I saw someone use a checklist, they walked round the plane about 10 times taking twice as long and didn't do any extra checks compared to me.

[lenhamlad]

As a newly qualified PPL with less than 100 hours I am more than happy to use the checklist on the ground before and after my flight. Even with the checklist in hand I have forgotten to set one stage of flaps on take off in the Robin. Only noticed when I went retract them at 300ft! In the air I use mnemonics. I have enough on my plate aviating (isn't that the first rule?) to keep me occupied.

[BackPacker]

The reality is that in a light, single engine aircraft there is virtually nothing that will lead to an immediate catastrophic failure if you forget it. The only thing that will immediately cause a lot of damage is to forget to lower the gear before landing. And most aircraft have some sort of audible/visible warning for that.

So if you manage to get the engine running, chances are that the aircraft will actually fly just fine when you open the throttle. And if you close the throttle, the houses will become bigger, and chances are that you will make a fine landing.

Sure, without deploying flaps properly you might not get the best take-off and landing performance. Without applying carb heat at strategic moments your engine might ice up. Without leaning and enriching at the proper moments you might not get the best performance and lowest cost. If you forget to adjust the RPM (CS prop) at the proper moments the engine might wear out faster, you might not get book performance and so forth. So I'm not advocating that flying is just a matter of starting the engine and pushing the throttle, and forget the rest. But in a light aircraft, if you do things from memory and you happen to forget something, it's usually not the end of the world - apart from the landing gear deployment obviously.

For me personally, in an aircraft I'm familiar with, I do things from memory. And in aircraft I'm not familiar with I either adapt my memorized routine, or take out the checklist.

But if you do things from memory, make sure that you still apply a logical and methodical method. Certain tasks, such as starting the engine, always consist of the same steps. Mnemonics or simple counting items work well to remember these. BUMFITCH, FREDA, HASELL and such are still very useful

For more complex checklist parts, particularly the pre-takeoff checks, I always use the same flow through the cockpit to make sure everything is the way it should be. And that flow is dictated by the cockpit/panel layout. For the Robin that would be:
- Coaming row: Check/test warning lights, set interior lights, set/check exterior lights
- Instrument panel: Check the standard six (QNH set, DI set, check others)
- Avionics stack: From top to bottom: check proper frequencies and volumes set, transponder correct code and STBY, GPS has satellite lock, is loaded with the plan and set properly.
- RHS of the panel: There's not a lot here but give it a once-over anyway. (Reset G-meter, check ELT in STBY)
- Bottom of the panel: Check all engine instruments in the green, fuel sufficient, magnetos both, cabin heat settings correct.
- Center console: Check flaps, set for TO. Check/set trim, fuel cock open, carb heat off
- Last: Cabin secure, canopy closed, seatbelts fastened, controls full&free.

Obviously if your cockpit has a different layout then a different flow will apply.

[dont overfil]

Not one of the checklists I've seen has "switch off phone."

The Cessna checklist for the aircraft I used to fly had "Master switch on" before "Check gear selector down."

I make my own now.

D.O.

[FullWings]

Oooh, good subject!

For light aircraft, I tend to side with the "none or optional" crowd. Personally, I do a methodical but reasonably rapid scan around the cockpit to make sure that the important knobs and levers are in the required position, like Backpacker above. I try to look at things as though I'd never seen them before and think: "how should XXX be set up for this stage of flight?" as an open question.

In the airline world, checklists form an important part of the operation but they are not infallible, even when being used by two (or more) people. It's relatively easy, in challenge-and-response, to respond with what you *expect* to see (or what is normal and you've got very used to seeing) rather than what is *actually there*. I've witnessed similar things happen with solo checklists in GA, when the checklist overrides reality!

IMHO going over in your own mind how you are going to operate the aircraft, be it normally or in an emergency, *before* you actually go aviating, is worth a thousand checklists...

[AdamFrisch]

On the ground I use them, in the air it's all memory. The old Commander is dead simple anyway, so can't really mess up bad. My one personal gotcha is that I sometimes forget to raise flaps.

[darkroomsource]

I think there's yet another variable...
and that is how familiar are you with that particular plane...

And another...
have you always done everything correctly? perfect practice makes perfect, but bad practice makes mistakes.

Some things you absolutely should have memorized - what to do for in-flight or start up fire, what to do for an aborted take-off.

But if you're not very familiar with your new to you cirrus, you should probably be checking the checklist downwind after doing your GUMP check, until you're sure that every time you check it you've got it right.

The thing is, we tend to not use the checklist, and rely on our memory, for the most critical phases of flight, but use the checklist for those that are less critical.

(all of this is referring to light planes only, I don't think it applies to larger planes)

I do believe that there are a few phases of flight where missing a single item on the checklist can, in fact, be disastrous, gear down on landing... what is the maximum speed for gear or flap extension... carb heat just before landing if you need a go around (all the other knobs get pushed for a go-around, so if you have not pulled the heat and there is ice, it could be a problem)... for a twin knowing the Vyse (unless you have a blue line on the speed indicator) during takeoff...

But reviewing the checklist just before that phase of flight, when you have a bit of time, might be a good idea.

[maxred]

I have always looked on flying as a building block mentality - A,B,C,D. Standard routine. Once you come away from that, other variables can distract. It is like the standard approach, to an unfamiliar airfield, where until you are familiar with it, it is better to do a standard overhead join. This has been the discussion point in many threads

Checklists are part of the 'routine'. Why not use them? I also feel it is very much type dependent, but when you are flying multiple types. then I think they should be used continually. It is good practice.

There have been some interesting comments on this thread like:-

It's perfectly fine to not use a check list as a PPL. I usually use it on the ground only but I know everything from memory and let's face it, a C172 isn't rocket science

Well if thats the way you wish to fly, feel free.

[Pilot DAR]

As the PIC, you are responsible for flying the aircraft in accordance with it's manufacturer's specified procedures. If you are very confident that you can do this from memory, and get it right (probably 'cause you have hundreds hours on type) - it's up to you.

Do I always use a paper checklist? Nope! After 3100 hours in my C 150, There's not much I'm going to gain from referring to a checklist for it. However, a month ago, I flew four types in the same day - I used the paper checklist for the other three: A Lake Amphib I was landing on the water for the first time this season (wheels up for landing please!), a DA-42, whose engines are somewhat new to me, and a Quest Kodiak, which I had never flown before.

In any of those three types, I could not present a good argument for not using the paper checklist, based upon either my non familiarity with the type, or my recent currency on the type.

In my opinion, if you have to ask if you should use the paper checklist - you should.

[peterh337]

is it acceptable to do checklists while flying (and on the ground) entirely from memory? At a PPL level at least.

I think the answer is: whetever is expected of you in the flight test

[Miken100]

Devils Advocate.....

So... I've got hundreds of hours on type.... I'm lying in a field, surrounded by wreckage saying to myself "I could have sworn I'd checked the oil".... the trouble is that memory of repetition/routine means I am recalling checking it the flight before this one but I didn't actually check it today.... luckily I'm still alive because I forgot to check the fuel level as well and there's not enough left to catch fire!!

[stevelup]

Checking the oil shouldn't need to be in a checklist. It's simple good airmanship and something that you would do no matter what the aircraft is.

I mean, would you ever set off without doing a mag check? After any reasonable number of hours, things like this should be second nature...

The same goes for 99% of the stuff on a checklist.

If it's an unfamiliar type, then it would clearly be prudent to refer to a checklist just in case there are any unexpected gotcha's, but I question the value of it in your usual mount?

the trouble is that memory of repetition/routine means I am recalling checking it the flight before

Doing it by memory isn't really the right way, doing it logically is the right way.

So walking around the aircraft you check the fuel drains, stall warner, oil, prop, and so on - just in the pattern you walk around. You can't miss or forget anything then. Just make sure you end up back where you started and you know you've checked everything!

Likewise, on the inside, just do a logical scan of the panel and controls and you won't miss anything.

This is then transferrable to other aircraft too.

[Big Pistons Forever]

A couple of general comments.

1) It is important to differentiate between "do lists" (ie you read the item and then do it and then move to the next item etc etc) and "checklists" ( ie you do the whole check like the prelanding one and then you check that you have not missed anything by reading the "checklist"). For PPL's I teach that in general, checks that are done on the ground with the aircraft stopped or in cruise flight are done as "do lists" and the ones where the aircraft is moving or manoevering in the air are done as "checklists". So you get the following

Prestart = do list
After start= checklist
Taxi = do list
Runup = checklist
Pretakeoff = do list
Cruise = do list
Descent and approach = do list
Prelanding = checklist
Afterlanding = checklist
shutdown = do list



2) Flight schools are notorious for IMO stupidly long checklists. This is because they use the checklist as an instructional tool instead of it s true purpose which is as a safety of flight tool. The only items on a checklist should be ones where if they are missed the safety of the flight will be degraded. Following this philosophy greatly reduces the number of items on a checklist. For example my C172 prelanding check is only 4 items: fuel both, mixture rich, carb heat as required and brakes checked.

3) Checklists should flow in a logical order. Again for the C 172 all my normal and emergency checks start at the fuel selector and make a counterclockwise circle around the instrument panel ending at the throttle. Many checklists jump all over the place without any logical order.

If you are an experienced pilot fling a simple airplane a lot like Pilot DAR's C 150 then a simple flow check without using any paper is IMO perfectly normal. However if you are a low time PPL flying 15 hours a year then the discipline of full and complete checklist use is IMO imperative for safe flying.

[sixtiesrelic]

All this written checklist nonsense seems to have seeped in with the idea that flying a lightie should be conducted like you're in a great big jet airliner.

Oy! you are in a sprots type aircraft with ONE pilot.

Checklists going round and round in your head as you woke in the middle of the night was part and parcel of learning to fly.

FLY being the operative word.

Fly your lighte and love the experience, don't sit there pretending you're a big airline pilot OPERATING it.

VFR = 'SEE and be seen'. Head down, finding your place in a list on a peice of paper isn't looking outside from side to side to make sure the fly splat on the windscreen isn't actually the aeroplane you're going to hit.

Airliners have two pilots. One reads, the other looks at his instruments or outside with glances to the item. If there's two of you flying together often, one calling a checklist while the other flies is good.

I have no idea why flip down checklists attached to the aircraft have never become common. All who have used them reckon they're the ant's pants. Written word... but the tab is either going up when you complete the action to show it's done or down if it is a latter checklist.
Usually it is done from memory and the tab is moved as 'the tick in the box'.

Sadly we are losing our dependence on ourselves and our brain to artificial aids... paper checklists Vs memory and calculators Vs mental arithmetic.
How long to go to the next waypoint mentally, is within a minute if you do it roughly while looking around outside. Pressing many buttons on a calculator in turbulence... not good... did you mistakenly hit the wrong one? and how many new age pilots have the mental arithmetic capability to know if the answer is reasonable.

[Pilot DAR]

aircraft with ONE pilot

Who is twice as likely to forget something as two pilots would be.....

I never expect to be challenged if I choose to use the paper checklist at any non emergency phase of flight, so long as doing so does not put me behind the aircraft, or otherwise detract from safety. Nor, will I challenge another pilot who does the same. Some things are just better being sure about:

When I fly the C 182 all by myself, should I use a checklist to assure that I land with the wheels retracted as appropriate? - It's what I teach.....

[Piper.Classique]

I think we could possibly use a comparison with driving a car to help think about this. When I get in the car to drive to the airfield I don't use a checklist at any point. I have had the same car for awhile, I am familiar with its rather simple systems, and don't feel the need of a checklist. I do, as a matter of common sense, check the oil, make sure I have fuel in the tank, and that the windscreen is clean.

Then I pull the cub out of the hangar and do much the same. I don't require a checklist to remind me to shut the door and put on a seatbelt any more than I do with my car. I will then go round the inside of the aircraft in a logical sequence, based on the layout of the aircraft.

Now, suppose I hire a car that I am not familiar with. I will learn the differences between that and my own car, and make a systematic check round the cabin before I move off. With an unfamiliar but still simple aircraft I might well use a paper checklist to help with this procedure. However, I will still work on a logical and methodical flow check first and then CHECK that I haven't forgotten anything before moving off. In other words I am using a checklist, not a DO list.

With more complex types the DO list might well be needed. This can be, for example, a particular starting procedure outside the scope of a simple memnonic.

In the air or on the road I would rather keep my attention outside. The pre landing check is rather simple for most aircraft and can be done from memory. It requires appropriate tank selection, power settings, carb heat and undercarriage and flap operation as required. A memnonic after preparing the aircraft to land will check this. Again, it is a CHECK. By the end of the downwind leg the items above should have been done. You shouldn't need to look at a piece of paper to know what speed you should be flying the approach, or to remind you to lower the flaps. Once back at the hangar you can stop the engine and if you feel the need, use a checklist before you note the tach time etc.

Please don't think I am telling you what to do here. You are all adults and can decide what you prefer. Just don't complicate what is actually a rather simple process. If you do use a checklist, for most singles it should fit on to one side of A4 paper. Anything more is a flight Manual

[peterh337]

I use a checklist for most ground things, and ought to be using it for some air things like configuring the system for an ILS.

[Big Pistons Forever]

Originally Posted by peterh337

I use a checklist for most ground things, and ought to be using it for some air things like configuring the system for an ILS.

I would argue what you are discussing is moving from the checklist realm to more of a SOP. This is IMO one area where GA in general and flight training in particular, do not do very well.

Rather then teach a consistent and coherent way to fly the aircraft and operate the systems (for complex and or IFR types) people are head down reading needlessly long checklist but doing a different thing on every flight.