Club Styles
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Italy
Posts: 368
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
My instructor was an ex WWII Siai Marchetti 79 bomber pilot.
No theory, no standardisation, just pratical inputs on how to fly an aeroplane and good sense on how to arrive and conform to different traffic patterns.
In one word "airmanship".
Big airports with liners, local airfields with club aircraft, grass strips with microlights, as a Pilot you use the proper approach depending on aircraft and place of arrival.
No theory, no standardisation, just pratical inputs on how to fly an aeroplane and good sense on how to arrive and conform to different traffic patterns.
In one word "airmanship".
Big airports with liners, local airfields with club aircraft, grass strips with microlights, as a Pilot you use the proper approach depending on aircraft and place of arrival.
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: 23, Railway Cuttings, East Cheam
Age: 68
Posts: 3,115
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
An overhead join is supposed to fulfil the same thing, you get a good look at the airfield, signals square and cct traffic. Mind you, if you're approaching somewhere with four runways and they call something like 'Join overhead 2,000ft runway xx right hand' it can take me more than a few seconds to figure out how I'm going to execute it properly.
If I get clearance at ours I nearly always do a base leg join, it just saves time.
If I get clearance at ours I nearly always do a base leg join, it just saves time.
I am privileged as a civilian to fly with a Royal Air Force flying club and don't want the image given by the OP to go unchallenged. I learnt to fly at and have been a member of a RAF club for the last four years and recognise none of what the OP said about RAF flying clubs. Our instructors teach, as far as I can tell, a standard JAR PPL syllabus. The space cadet gliding school with whom (amongst others) we share the airfield is all flying suits and oval circuits but not us. What I do gain from flying with a RAF club is a sense of discipline, safety and comradeship. We wash and fuel our aeroplanes together; keep the facilities in good order together; and every spring get together to give them deep cleans. The flying order book is strict and safe but not unduly restrictive. We have a social gatherings and monthly aviation themed talks.
A big thing I have noticed at my club is the quality of instruction whether from the very experienced or the very young (we have instructors of all ages), it has always been very good. Every time I see a thread here or in the other place about poor training practices whether for PPL or IMC, I notice that I have never seen any of the poor practices described (some of which I have seen at other clubs where I have rented) at my club.
A big thing I have noticed at my club is the quality of instruction whether from the very experienced or the very young (we have instructors of all ages), it has always been very good. Every time I see a thread here or in the other place about poor training practices whether for PPL or IMC, I notice that I have never seen any of the poor practices described (some of which I have seen at other clubs where I have rented) at my club.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: UK
Age: 40
Posts: 211
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Also our deadside is always to the north, so not quite sure how having an IP would work there.
I wouldn't want to fly high wing aircraft now.
Big airports with liners, local airfields with club aircraft, grass strips with microlights, as a Pilot you use the proper approach depending on aircraft and place of arrival.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: UK
Age: 40
Posts: 211
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
JOE-FBS I must apologise if an 'image' was conveyed. It really wasn't supposed to elicit such reaction. I thought it'd be interesting to learn of the way individual clubs impact flying styles.
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Lincolnshire
Posts: 280
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I am privileged as a civilian to fly with a Royal Air Force flying club and don't want the image given by the OP to go unchallenged.
we share the airfield is all flying suits and oval circuits but not us.
What I do gain from flying with a RAF club is a sense of discipline, safety and comradeship. We wash and fuel our aeroplanes together; keep the facilities in good order together; and every spring get together to give them deep cleans. The flying order book is strict and safe but not unduly restrictive.
Nothing wrong with a flying suit, I'm only jealous!
and of course nothing wrong with space cadets either. Thirty years ago I was one. In fact it was in an ATC Kirby Cadet III that I made my first ever solo flight in any form of aircraft (Scampton, April 1982, two minutes!).
and of course nothing wrong with space cadets either. Thirty years ago I was one. In fact it was in an ATC Kirby Cadet III that I made my first ever solo flight in any form of aircraft (Scampton, April 1982, two minutes!).
Grob Queen,
If you want to seek opinions on student topics without being abused then the Flyer student forum is a good place to go. There are some people on Prune who give sound advice but there are a lot more who are abusive and / or talk nonsense.
If you want to seek opinions on student topics without being abused then the Flyer student forum is a good place to go. There are some people on Prune who give sound advice but there are a lot more who are abusive and / or talk nonsense.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: UK
Age: 40
Posts: 211
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hey guys, lets not enter into yet another slagging off of our counterparts be they studes or old-timers 
The military style of flying is but one of many, to return to my original curiosity perhaps you'd share any of your flying-isms too? Maybe pitching such questions at the extremes (student and liner-old-timer) was incorrect. I'd like to hear from PPLs with a few hours under their belt that have developed a flying style, as well as the student and instructor cadres. Again there are no right or wrong answers to this one.
The military style of flying is but one of many, to return to my original curiosity perhaps you'd share any of your flying-isms too? Maybe pitching such questions at the extremes (student and liner-old-timer) was incorrect. I'd like to hear from PPLs with a few hours under their belt that have developed a flying style, as well as the student and instructor cadres. Again there are no right or wrong answers to this one.
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Hotels
Posts: 348
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
It's annoying for an instructor though GeeWhizz, such as myself. Some of the questions posted on here really make me wonder what some schools/clubs are churning out... No 'slagging off match' or offence intended.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: UK
Age: 40
Posts: 211
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Understandable MONGO.
But how do you compare the professional civilian flight school to the RF flight school/local club? Are they as I alluded to further back that FTOs are more focussed on procedures and fuel economy?
But how do you compare the professional civilian flight school to the RF flight school/local club? Are they as I alluded to further back that FTOs are more focussed on procedures and fuel economy?
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Hotels
Posts: 348
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
GeeWizz
What makes you think an FTO is more into procedures or fuel saving than an RF? That's not the case. Just because one may be an RF does not mean it can't churn out excellent quality pilots, and vice versa. Standardisation WITHIN schools is the key element though, for the students sake. As long as we're all teaching 'on the same page' so to speak.
It's reading stories such as taking off with full flap (outside AFM limits) and the like that show poor understanding of aircraft limitations and basic aerodynamics though. I blame the instructors, regardless of hours or years in the job. They are the ones passing on these bad (potentially life threatening) habits.
What makes you think an FTO is more into procedures or fuel saving than an RF? That's not the case. Just because one may be an RF does not mean it can't churn out excellent quality pilots, and vice versa. Standardisation WITHIN schools is the key element though, for the students sake. As long as we're all teaching 'on the same page' so to speak.
It's reading stories such as taking off with full flap (outside AFM limits) and the like that show poor understanding of aircraft limitations and basic aerodynamics though. I blame the instructors, regardless of hours or years in the job. They are the ones passing on these bad (potentially life threatening) habits.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: UK
Age: 40
Posts: 211
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
What makes you think an FTO is more into procedures or fuel saving than an RF? That's not the case. Just because one may be an RF does not mean it can't churn out excellent quality pilots, and vice versa.
Ok. To me it's logical for commercial ops to be as economic as possible(?). Hence my question on its impact on the way we fly. Who am I to question the quality of the pilot at the end!? Nobody. No loaded questions, just a simple interest
It's reading stories such as taking off with full flap (outside AFM limits) and the like that show poor understanding of aircraft limitations and basic aerodynamics though. I blame the instructors, regardless of hours or years in the job. They are the ones passing on these bad (potentially life threatening) habits.
Cheers
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Lincolnshire
Posts: 280
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Mongo (and others),
Of course I trust my instructor! I jsut thought the PFL question may be an interesting one for everyone. Obviously it gives the wrong impression (again
) Obviously I don't take this as gospel, jsut interested in what other pilots of all types think!
I may ask, if i and others like me are going to get slagged off for questions asked, what is the point of PPrune? Genghis may be able to answer that one!!
Well, honestly, i'm not going to bother again.
Of course I trust my instructor! I jsut thought the PFL question may be an interesting one for everyone. Obviously it gives the wrong impression (again
) Obviously I don't take this as gospel, jsut interested in what other pilots of all types think!I may ask, if i and others like me are going to get slagged off for questions asked, what is the point of PPrune? Genghis may be able to answer that one!!
Well, honestly, i'm not going to bother again.
Ahh the joys of Ppruning......S'okay, Grob Queen, I thought you got an interesting thread going there. No need to go home in a huff just yet.
Seriously though, I think we all do develop our own style, though it will often change from aircraft to aircraft. I don't fly my supercub and the club DR400 the same way, at all. Oh, and the cub will take off very nicely with full flap. Also my style is different at my home base, which is a flying club airfield, no atc, mix of microlights, gliders, light a/c to the way I will approach a flight to a major airport with a different mix of traffic, approach, tower, gnd etc. The main thing here is to remember
A) Flying is supposed to be fun. Sure, take safety seriously, but if as a private pilot you don't enjoy your flying then why are you doing it?
B) Your instructor is probably reading your posts and by now has worked out who you are
Seriously though, I think we all do develop our own style, though it will often change from aircraft to aircraft. I don't fly my supercub and the club DR400 the same way, at all. Oh, and the cub will take off very nicely with full flap
. Also my style is different at my home base, which is a flying club airfield, no atc, mix of microlights, gliders, light a/c to the way I will approach a flight to a major airport with a different mix of traffic, approach, tower, gnd etc. The main thing here is to remember A) Flying is supposed to be fun. Sure, take safety seriously, but if as a private pilot you don't enjoy your flying then why are you doing it?
B) Your instructor is probably reading your posts and by now has worked out who you are
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Hotels
Posts: 348
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Grob - don't take any offense please. Also, nobody is 'slagging you off'.
Piper Classique - the Grob 115 is not certified for full flap takeoffs, that's the point. You as an instructor wouldnt advocate ignoring the POH now would you?
Flying is meant to be fun AND safe.
Piper Classique - the Grob 115 is not certified for full flap takeoffs, that's the point. You as an instructor wouldnt advocate ignoring the POH now would you?
Flying is meant to be fun AND safe.
M-ONGO, I was talking about the cub when referring to full flap take-offs. No, I don't advocate ignoring the POH. Yes, flying is meant to be safe. Now, can we all start taking ourselves a little less seriously? Pretty please with choccy buttons on.....
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: UK
Age: 40
Posts: 211
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
To make this a little more constructive, are there any SOPs that do recommend full flap take offs?
PC as your Cub can do it nicely, are there any conditions that dictate when this technique can/should be used? Are there clubs that teach this normally within prescribed conditions?
I have to add that I've not come across it yet. But interestingly, a go around from a short field approach implies adding full power with full flap set. OK so the aircraft is already airborne with an ample trim setting, and unnecessary flap can be retracted at a suitable height/ROC. I would suggest a full flap take off would be hard work with the trim set to the take off position (POH/checklist compliant?).
Just another thought or two
PC as your Cub can do it nicely, are there any conditions that dictate when this technique can/should be used? Are there clubs that teach this normally within prescribed conditions?
I have to add that I've not come across it yet. But interestingly, a go around from a short field approach implies adding full power with full flap set. OK so the aircraft is already airborne with an ample trim setting, and unnecessary flap can be retracted at a suitable height/ROC. I would suggest a full flap take off would be hard work with the trim set to the take off position (POH/checklist compliant?).
Just another thought or two
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Hotels
Posts: 348
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
GeeWizz
It's all aircraft specific. Some types it's approved, others not (as the G115's case) you certainly wouldn't want to try it in a C150 with 40* Flaps!
PC as your Cub can do it nicely, are there any conditions that dictate when this technique can/should be used? Are there clubs that teach this normally within prescribed conditions?