Wing drop during stall
Moderator
Yes, I agree, every fixed wing aircraft I have flown, recovers from a stall best, when the elevator (or stabilator) is moved first (nose down (when erect)) to initiate recovery.
I will try to not make unambiguous statements in the future. I'll also try to make unambiguous statements too! And I'll work on not making ambiguous statements either....
I will try to not make unambiguous statements in the future. I'll also try to make unambiguous statements too! And I'll work on not making ambiguous statements either....
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: europe
Age: 49
Posts: 183
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Pull What....with the greatest of respect - push not!
(my bold)
If the power (which I agree is not a "flying control") has been reduced to a minimum, and one has ensured that no aileron is applied, I might agree with that statement. However, I think it is worth qualifying so that those with less experience than you have are not in any doubt about what constitutes "standard" spin recovery, and exactly why the actions called for should be accomplished in the correct sequence, which is (for an erect spin):
a) reduce power
b) eliminate any aileron input
c) eliminate any FORWARD elevator**
d) apply full opposite rudder
e) apply continuous forward elevator until rotation stops
f) centralise rudder input
g) ease out of resultant dive with elevator
** not generally published in traditional training manuals because it is unlikely that forward elevator deflection will exist in the lead up to an inadvertent spin, but this is an ESSENTIAL recovery action for spins that have become gyroscopically "accelerated."
To clarify therefore, a FORWARD movement of the elevator is certainly NOT the first action to recover from a spin. In the case of an accelerated spin this is probably the WORST thing one could do, and for a number of reasons that I will be pleased to expand on to those who may have an interest.
but from the range I have flown over 20,000 hours plus Ive never come across one where the elevator was not the first flying control to be moved for stall or spin recovery
If the power (which I agree is not a "flying control") has been reduced to a minimum, and one has ensured that no aileron is applied, I might agree with that statement. However, I think it is worth qualifying so that those with less experience than you have are not in any doubt about what constitutes "standard" spin recovery, and exactly why the actions called for should be accomplished in the correct sequence, which is (for an erect spin):
a) reduce power
b) eliminate any aileron input
c) eliminate any FORWARD elevator**
d) apply full opposite rudder
e) apply continuous forward elevator until rotation stops
f) centralise rudder input
g) ease out of resultant dive with elevator
** not generally published in traditional training manuals because it is unlikely that forward elevator deflection will exist in the lead up to an inadvertent spin, but this is an ESSENTIAL recovery action for spins that have become gyroscopically "accelerated."
To clarify therefore, a FORWARD movement of the elevator is certainly NOT the first action to recover from a spin. In the case of an accelerated spin this is probably the WORST thing one could do, and for a number of reasons that I will be pleased to expand on to those who may have an interest.
Last edited by chubbychopper; 7th Oct 2011 at 23:42. Reason: typo
For certain aircraft, your first indication of a stall (though you already know you're close) will be a gentle and controllable wing drop. All Citabrias I have stalled come to mind.
Moderator
I thought I was wrong, but I was mistaken....
Funny how you can own a plane for 24 years, fly thousands of hours on it, and realize, that there are still things you don't know about it!
While leafing through the flight manual for my C 150M, during a long flight yesterday, I happened across the procedure for spin recovery. It is:
(1) RETARD THROTTLE TO IDLE POSITION
(2) APPLY FULL RUDDER OPPOSITE TO THE DIRECTION OF ROTATION
(3) AFTER ONE-FOURTH TURN, MOVE THE CONTROL WHEEL FORWARD OF NEUTRAL IN A BRISK MOTION
............
I guess we'll both live and learn PW!
While leafing through the flight manual for my C 150M, during a long flight yesterday, I happened across the procedure for spin recovery. It is:
(1) RETARD THROTTLE TO IDLE POSITION
(2) APPLY FULL RUDDER OPPOSITE TO THE DIRECTION OF ROTATION
(3) AFTER ONE-FOURTH TURN, MOVE THE CONTROL WHEEL FORWARD OF NEUTRAL IN A BRISK MOTION
............
Ive never come across one where the elevator was not the first flying control to be moved for stall or spin recovery-still you live and learn dont you!
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: England
Posts: 858
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
**** OK -Yes Pilot Dar and Chubby you are quite correct I made a mistake there. Ive got a great excuse too but I won't mention it as I do not want to set a precedent or spoil the moment!
In fact PD my incorrect technique of moving the CC forward first will work on your C150 (normal Cof G and config) but you probably knew that.
I am interested in your standard recovery Chubby, Ive not come across that, as written, as a standard recovery before, where did you get that from? I am asking that out of interest by the way-not trying to be clever!
In fact looking at what you wrote again this is the bit that i do not remember seeing before
c) eliminate any FORWARD elevator**
So yes please do elaborate
In fact PD my incorrect technique of moving the CC forward first will work on your C150 (normal Cof G and config) but you probably knew that.
I am interested in your standard recovery Chubby, Ive not come across that, as written, as a standard recovery before, where did you get that from? I am asking that out of interest by the way-not trying to be clever!
In fact looking at what you wrote again this is the bit that i do not remember seeing before
c) eliminate any FORWARD elevator**
So yes please do elaborate
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: London
Posts: 519
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I am interested in your standard recovery Chubby... where did you get that from?
b) eliminate any aileron input
c) eliminate any FORWARD elevator**
c) eliminate any FORWARD elevator**
e) apply continuous forward elevator until rotation stops
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: England
Posts: 858
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
e) apply continuous forward elevator until rotation stops
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Earth
Posts: 139
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
With regards to elevator control during stall, maybe the best wording should be "Release any back pressure on the control column"?
That way, it can mean DO NOT PUSH CC FORWARD, but just relax it...?
That way, it can mean DO NOT PUSH CC FORWARD, but just relax it...?
Moderator
Which is why there is no such thing as a standard spin recovery
The C 206 can be very "bobby" and pitch sensitive when you push the nose down. It's easy to get into negative G, and it requires delicate control input to get it just where yo want it.
I found the Caravan's spin characteristics to be extremely different based upon C of G position. At gross weight forward C of G, it could not be held into a spin for as much as a turn, a dramatic spiral dive resulted (recovery can only be safely accomplished by referring to an accelerometer). At aft C of G was completely different, requiring full opposite rudder and controls forward (nose down) to be applied and held for 3/4 turn to get it out.
These very different characteristics demonstrate to me that although these aircraft can be safely spun and recovered, when properly planned and equipped, in ideal circumstances, casual spinning would be a very poor idea.
That said, each of these aircraft were naturally very resistant to entering a spin, so it would take real mis-handling to get you there in the first place.
The standards for handling which must be shown for approved maneuvers generally require a demonstration that "unusual pilot skill, attention and strength" are not required. If the recovery technique varies a lot by configuration, the skill and attention elements of that requirement may not be met. That said, of course, there are also very specific requirements for aircraft handling during stalls and spin (if desired for approval).
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: South England
Posts: 56
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I started my PPL training 3 years ago, and we did not do any spin training. I got my licence last year, and I have still never had any spin training. The only advice I was given about getting out of a spin in a C152 was to 'let go of everything, it will sort itself out'.
I'm told that spin training was part of the PPL training many years ago, so should it still be taught as part of a PPL? If it's not taught now, how many newer pilots (like me) would know what to do to get out of a spin? And reading these posts, 'letting go of everything' does not seem the best option ....
I'm told that spin training was part of the PPL training many years ago, so should it still be taught as part of a PPL? If it's not taught now, how many newer pilots (like me) would know what to do to get out of a spin? And reading these posts, 'letting go of everything' does not seem the best option ....
Join Date: May 2001
Posts: 10,815
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Don't believe that in a C150 or for that matter a C152.
During my FIC the instructor was in a steep turn right on the nibble of the stall with full power on.
His words were I have never mana-----
While saying he put a couple of reversing roll inputs in.
The aircraft flicked over the top and we were in a fully developed spin going about 3-4 times faster than they normally do. It wouldn't recover with the POH spin recovery and after what seemed ages he applied power as well as rudder and it came out not very far off the ground.
Its an optional part of the syllabus, I used to do it with my students if they wanted to but I didn't push it if they didn't. Its much better to know the danger attitudes and get the student to recover when they see them than teach the spin recovery. Most spins occur in slow stages of flight when you are so near the ground it doesn't matter how much training you have had you won't have enough altitude to recover.
During my FIC the instructor was in a steep turn right on the nibble of the stall with full power on.
His words were I have never mana-----
While saying he put a couple of reversing roll inputs in.
The aircraft flicked over the top and we were in a fully developed spin going about 3-4 times faster than they normally do. It wouldn't recover with the POH spin recovery and after what seemed ages he applied power as well as rudder and it came out not very far off the ground.
Its an optional part of the syllabus, I used to do it with my students if they wanted to but I didn't push it if they didn't. Its much better to know the danger attitudes and get the student to recover when they see them than teach the spin recovery. Most spins occur in slow stages of flight when you are so near the ground it doesn't matter how much training you have had you won't have enough altitude to recover.
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: South England
Posts: 56
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
It is confusing when there seems to be so much contradictory advice about getting out of a spin in a C152 - this is just one of many articles about 'letting go' of the controls and it will self recover. I've never spun a C152, but those who have, which method do you use?
"Spinning the Cessna 152
It is a hallmark of the tricycle wheeled Cessna 150/152/172 aeroplanes that they are difficult to deliberately spin when they are loaded in compliance with the Utility Category Certification. Load a couple of passengers and some baggage into a Cessna 172 and it becomes easier to spin, but the aeroplane is not in the Utility Category! To learn what a spin is really like you need to fly one of the following aeroplanes: Piper Tomahawk, Slingsby T67, Chipmunk, Condor, or most 'classic' training aeroplanes.
We are flying the Cessna 152 however so let's look at how we can simulate the spin...
'Spin entry'
There are two ways to enter the spin in a Cessna 152, you either flick/snap the aeroplane in, or you enter with some power. Flicking it in is very violent, this is often the way that frightens the student pilot and involves reducing the speed to around 50KIAS and applying full up elevator and rudder violently. The aeroplane inverts and enters a spin.
The nicer entry is to apply 1500 RPM and at 40-45KIAS apply full rudder and up elevator, this way the aeroplane enters the auto-rotation smoothly. Once established you must close the throttle.
In the spin
The Cessna 152 will spin for one turn and then it enters a spiral dive, so one turn is all this author does with a student! It's enough to get the point across. The aeroplane rotates due to the differential lift of the wings because there is yaw, the faster wing is developing more lift and so rotates upwards, at the same time the nose is yawing in the same direction. The aeroplane descends like a sycamore seed.
The Cessna 152 will recover if it is correctly loaded, and the power is at idle, by simply releasing the controls."
"Spinning the Cessna 152
It is a hallmark of the tricycle wheeled Cessna 150/152/172 aeroplanes that they are difficult to deliberately spin when they are loaded in compliance with the Utility Category Certification. Load a couple of passengers and some baggage into a Cessna 172 and it becomes easier to spin, but the aeroplane is not in the Utility Category! To learn what a spin is really like you need to fly one of the following aeroplanes: Piper Tomahawk, Slingsby T67, Chipmunk, Condor, or most 'classic' training aeroplanes.
We are flying the Cessna 152 however so let's look at how we can simulate the spin...
'Spin entry'
There are two ways to enter the spin in a Cessna 152, you either flick/snap the aeroplane in, or you enter with some power. Flicking it in is very violent, this is often the way that frightens the student pilot and involves reducing the speed to around 50KIAS and applying full up elevator and rudder violently. The aeroplane inverts and enters a spin.
The nicer entry is to apply 1500 RPM and at 40-45KIAS apply full rudder and up elevator, this way the aeroplane enters the auto-rotation smoothly. Once established you must close the throttle.
In the spin
The Cessna 152 will spin for one turn and then it enters a spiral dive, so one turn is all this author does with a student! It's enough to get the point across. The aeroplane rotates due to the differential lift of the wings because there is yaw, the faster wing is developing more lift and so rotates upwards, at the same time the nose is yawing in the same direction. The aeroplane descends like a sycamore seed.
The Cessna 152 will recover if it is correctly loaded, and the power is at idle, by simply releasing the controls."
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: London
Posts: 519
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The "let go of everything" method does not work on all aircraft. I seem to remember being told that this method is dependent on the A/B ratio (ratio of weight in the fuselage, to weight in the wings) of the aircraft as it effects the gyroscopics of the spin.
In terms of recovery training if you are taught to recognise the onset of a stall, and to fly the aircraft in balance you should never get into a spin (unintentionally).
In terms of recovery training if you are taught to recognise the onset of a stall, and to fly the aircraft in balance you should never get into a spin (unintentionally).
Moderator
in a Cessna 152, you either flick/snap the aeroplane in
Whomever is being quoted should be much more cautious than to say this! If the 152 involved here is an Aerobat version, and an areobatic instructor is aboard this is acceptable. Otherwise, most certainly not! What is described here is a snap roll, and introduces all kinds of structural loads which a "normal" category aircraft is not designed to withstand. This is how a fool breaks a plane!
If in doubt, read the instructions! The Flight Manuals for spin approved Cessnas describe how to enter a spin why not do it that way?
Generally, the phrase "slow deceleration" is included in the description of spin entries. There are all kinds of other warnings about not having higher speeds and abrupt control inputs.
As for recovery, do what the flight manual says. If you are flying an aircraft which does not have a spin recovery described in the flight manual, you really should not be spinning it, unless a number of special precautions and authority has been granted.
The let go of everything method is not the quickest way out of any spin, but with altitude available, and a later prompt recognition and recovery from a spiral dive, it will be adequately safe on a small certified GA aircraft. The key being, when letting go of everything, you're not making it worse. That said, if you have inadvertently spun any plane, you were probably maneuvering close to the ground, and you're all done then. Aside from buggered up aerobatics or instrument flight, I cannot imagine how an accidental spin would occur at altitude.
The "let go of everything" method does not work on all aircraft
The Caravan recovered at Vne AND 2.8G, descending at 9200 FPM. Hopefully that warns most pilots away from casually attempting such things. I highly recommend competent spin training (including reading the flight manual!), in an approved aircraft type, and not spinning anything else!
Here's the video clip of my Caravan spin for those who have not seen it linked here before....
for stall recovery.
off