Round out / flare & other "terms"

[Grob Queen]

500,

Thanks for the links and the good luck! I know that Prune is not a substitute for talking things over with my instructor, its like chatting to the guys in the Club, my pilot friends and pilot and Nav colleagues...I just like to get different views!!

Ref use of full flap on a T&G, i'm just as surprised as you all are and wondered whether this was a common phenomena - or just a quirky thing...hence my question "to the floor"!

And its the Grob 115A that I fly...taxis like a Tesco trolley, the slowest powered thing around Lincolnshire airspace, but i love it!

[500 above]

Grob

Change to the Chipmunk! My favourite aircraft of over 50 types flown fixed wing.

As I said before, always trust your instructor. Any issues, take them up with him/her. He sounds like a sound bloke, but please take their word over pprune. Just be aware there are many opinions out here, not all correct and by no means wrong. It's good to get different views, well done for wanting to learn more!

From the G tolerance thread

"I seem to be virtually skimming the hedge at the end of one of our runways when I t/o using full flap"

Please read the Aircraft manuals, then ask any questions to the instructor. He/she should know the aircraft limitations. In all my types flown, takeoff has never been permitted with full flap. That's not to say it is for every type, although I have flown the 115...

I see from another post that you've already had a 'prang'. How did that happen?

All the best mate, pm me if you need any further clarification.

[Grob Queen]

500,

Ahhhh, the Chippy...if only I could!!! Flew my first Airex in a Chippy and had control for my first two landings and aeros.

Yep, my instructor is a great chap, we gert on well...although I think he must get extremely frustrated with me sometimes!

I have already pranged....but i think i'll start a new thread and see what others have done too...

[500 above]

The Chippy is indeed a fantastic aircraft. Many a happy flight in her.

Have you found the Grob's scheduled performance data in the flight manual for a takeoff with full flap yet?

[The500man]

Just completed a flight test for a new propeller and one of the checks required was "unstick speed", which suits me fine.

Pressumably Vmu is a non-event for a taildragger?


Here's another pprune thread about Vr, Vlof, and Vmu

http://www.pprune.org/tech-log/443294-vlof-vmu-vr.html

[500 above]

Now I think you will really confuse the poor guy! Grob, concentrate on the basics (AFM) and the theory of flight, writtens etc. Don't get too deep into Vmu, Vlof... That's not PPL theory.

[Pull what]

When I did my PPL course in 1960, the only term used in the UK was 'round-out'.

The term flare was in use before the 60s. In 1954 the Blind Flying Unit at Bedford started a research programe which lead to the eventual development of autoland. This was originally called AUTOFLARE as it only took the pilot to the flare (Hold Off). In 1960 when BOAC ordered the VC10 they specified the new AUTOFLARE. By the time the Tridents were introduced there was a full autoland system with autothrottle.

Flare, as I understand, originated from the term Flareline lighting (later flarepath lighting when used with defined runways). The pilot needed oil flare lighting to be able to see the runway and flare. Runway lighting today is still referred to as flarepath landing.

[foxmoth]

Take off occurs when the aircraft's nosewheel (or all wheels for taildraggers) leaves the ground does it not... Therefore, logic tells me that you are taking off when rotating!

Not necessarily, certainly in large aircraft you rotate, this brings the nosewheel up, but the mains may remain on the deck for a time after you have rotated and reached the correct TO attitude.

[Pull what]

Not necessarily, certainly in large aircraft you rotate, this brings the nosewheel up, but the mains may remain on the deck for a time after you have rotated and reached the correct TO attitude.

Quite correct-rotate and lift off are not the same things and the best proof of that was the Tenerife disaster where the commander rotated before Vr

[Pilot DAR]

If we're defining "take off" too here, would it not be the point at which the aircraft is supported by the wings rather than the landing gear?

I would presume that an aircraft has landed, when the weight is no longer wholly supported by the wings (and it is in contact, at the intended point, with the earth's surface). The nose or tailwheel could be held off for some time after that, but the landing has occurred. The takeoff would be the reverse.... Right?

[Ds3]

I would have thought these terms were pretty clear, even to a beginner like me! My understanding would be;

Rotate - point at which the angle of the plane changes from parallel to the runway to a 'nose up' attitude. This may or may not result in immediate 'lift off'.

Lift off - point at which all physical contact with the runway has ceased.

Round out / flare - same thing, both the point at which you alter your approach to the runway to prevent immediate impact.

Hold off - what happens after the 'flare' to prevent the aircraft setting down until the optimum speed is achieved.

Landing - point at which the aircraft makes contact with the runway after 'hold off' has occured.