Checklists
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Interesting thread, and as usual Pilot DAR make some good points.
I recently got checked out on a C172, having only flown C152/150 before. As a result, I ignored my paper C152 checklist, and duly forgot to raise/check flaps before moving off,. Not a great problem, as I alway do my pre take off checks - from memory. I pretty much never use them on a walk round, but I always use the paper version when I get in the cockpit, I find it always helps.
Why spurn a good check?
I recently got checked out on a C172, having only flown C152/150 before. As a result, I ignored my paper C152 checklist, and duly forgot to raise/check flaps before moving off,. Not a great problem, as I alway do my pre take off checks - from memory. I pretty much never use them on a walk round, but I always use the paper version when I get in the cockpit, I find it always helps.
Why spurn a good check?
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I think forgetting to raise the flap has got the be one of the most common things. I was recently out with an ex-Navy, F-18, Mustang and warbird flying CFI with tens of thousands of hour and he forgot it as well, so it's not just us low timers..
I'm blessed in one way, and that is that my gear extension speed is 156kts, and that gear extension is the first thing one does when one wants to start to slow her down with the geared props. It's so early in the chain that it's not easily forgotten.
I'm blessed in one way, and that is that my gear extension speed is 156kts, and that gear extension is the first thing one does when one wants to start to slow her down with the geared props. It's so early in the chain that it's not easily forgotten.
I keep an aeroplane on an airfield where, to get to it, I have to walk past the quite large C152 & C172 fleet of the local (very well run) commercial flying school.
About 50% of the time I walk past, at-least one aeroplane's been parked with the flaps left down.
Equally anecdotally, I've a little experience as a Class Rating Instructor, and a lot more experience checking pilots out on syndicate aeroplanes. In my experience private pilots who don't use either a checklist or a clear mnemonic for their checks invariably miss something important sooner or later. I can't say that I see a great difference between the two from the perspective of completeness - it's the people who don't use a reasonably rigid system that get it wrong. However again, in the air, you really can't afford to be spending a lot of time reading.
I've seen a lot of microlights where the owners have dynotaped the main mnemonics onto the edge of the instrument panel - just the letters, nothing else. Hard to argue with the logic.
G
About 50% of the time I walk past, at-least one aeroplane's been parked with the flaps left down.
Equally anecdotally, I've a little experience as a Class Rating Instructor, and a lot more experience checking pilots out on syndicate aeroplanes. In my experience private pilots who don't use either a checklist or a clear mnemonic for their checks invariably miss something important sooner or later. I can't say that I see a great difference between the two from the perspective of completeness - it's the people who don't use a reasonably rigid system that get it wrong. However again, in the air, you really can't afford to be spending a lot of time reading.
I've seen a lot of microlights where the owners have dynotaped the main mnemonics onto the edge of the instrument panel - just the letters, nothing else. Hard to argue with the logic.
G
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suggest being habitual of checklists
its always good to be in a habit of referring to chklists..even if you em' memorised.for one..you shud always be sure that you haven't missed anything...can save you a lot of trouble...it'll be a requirement for all your flight tests...and once you move on to bigger a/c..you'll definitely need to use chklists...coz they'll be too frigging long to memorise in exact order...
cheers!!!
cheers!!!
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Quote why spurn a good check?
I wholeheartedly agree, the problem is that most of the UK published checklists are wrong when it comes to the engine drills.
Most of them have been written in a way that is an a%#? Covering excersise for the publisher.
Instructors are using them as "do lists" rather than to check that the actions have been carried out.
I have no problem with a well disciplined system of checking that the required actions have been done, what I object to is folklore that is masquerading as airmanship.
I wholeheartedly agree, the problem is that most of the UK published checklists are wrong when it comes to the engine drills.
Most of them have been written in a way that is an a%#? Covering excersise for the publisher.
Instructors are using them as "do lists" rather than to check that the actions have been carried out.
I have no problem with a well disciplined system of checking that the required actions have been done, what I object to is folklore that is masquerading as airmanship.
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Mark1234 (and others)
In posts 10 and 11 the point was made that check lists are not action lists or a set of procedures to be followed. A checklist is simply list that checks that specific actions or procedures have been accomplished.
The items that need to be accomplished should be done from memory (like gear up after take off being an obvious example). In actual fact these are procedures. The sole purpose of a checklist is to check that the procedures have been accomplished.
If, as many here do, one flies a non complex type, the necessary procedures are limited in number, and are easily memorised. It follows therefore that any checklist will include only a few items to "tick off." So what is the big deal in using something that checks you have not missed anything?
Pilot DAR makes a very good point. If you do not have time to accomplish a checklist because "things are getting busy," then you have obviously let the airplane get way ahead of you. Certainly one should choose an appropriate time to make use of the checklist, but being too busy is an indication that one's mental capacity has preculded advance planning.
The type I currently fly has an extensive checklist which I have committed to memory, but I still make use of a checklist and would never contemplate not using it. In a previous job flying single crew jet ops I always managed to accomplish ALL checklists, even if the weather was down to minimums, in a howling gale and while often trying to rid the airframe of ice. It is at times such as this that it is essential to find time to make use of a checklist, so ignore it at your peril.
In posts 10 and 11 the point was made that check lists are not action lists or a set of procedures to be followed. A checklist is simply list that checks that specific actions or procedures have been accomplished.
The items that need to be accomplished should be done from memory (like gear up after take off being an obvious example). In actual fact these are procedures. The sole purpose of a checklist is to check that the procedures have been accomplished.
If, as many here do, one flies a non complex type, the necessary procedures are limited in number, and are easily memorised. It follows therefore that any checklist will include only a few items to "tick off." So what is the big deal in using something that checks you have not missed anything?
Pilot DAR makes a very good point. If you do not have time to accomplish a checklist because "things are getting busy," then you have obviously let the airplane get way ahead of you. Certainly one should choose an appropriate time to make use of the checklist, but being too busy is an indication that one's mental capacity has preculded advance planning.
The type I currently fly has an extensive checklist which I have committed to memory, but I still make use of a checklist and would never contemplate not using it. In a previous job flying single crew jet ops I always managed to accomplish ALL checklists, even if the weather was down to minimums, in a howling gale and while often trying to rid the airframe of ice. It is at times such as this that it is essential to find time to make use of a checklist, so ignore it at your peril.
I use a checklist for ground items, pre-flight, pre-start, run up etc. then memory for the rest - with a check list available.
I now fly a variety of small aircraft from a Microlight to a Cessna 182, and use the same memory check list for all - KISS. If the item is not relevant it doesn't matter - it will be tomorrow ! i.e. undercarriage, sometimes I say - down and welded, i.e on the 182, or Cherokee, but on the microlight I have to extend it and check it, so by mentioning it I don't have to change the downwind check for each and every type. KISS.
The microlight uses a Rotax, with no mixture, but it has a choke for starting which isn't used in the air in the manner of a mixture control, or carb.heat, but I still say them out loud to myself during the downwind check, and respond accordingly, and also check that the carb heat is stowed on finals - even tho' it isn't there, it will be tomorrow when I might fly the 182.
The 'questions' are identical, but the 'responses' remind me which type I'm flying - if I need reminding, and at my age ...... !
One time when I didn't bother to use the printed pre-flight checklist I'd made for a 'simple' microlight, I left the pitot cover on ! Sounds daft, but Murphy is always with us. If it can happen, it will. I now put the pitot cover in sight within the aircraft, not thrown on to a shelf in the hangar, as a lot do, so if I can't remember taking it off, and can't see the pitot tube - low wing aircraft - I can see it in the aircraft ! KISS
I now fly a variety of small aircraft from a Microlight to a Cessna 182, and use the same memory check list for all - KISS. If the item is not relevant it doesn't matter - it will be tomorrow ! i.e. undercarriage, sometimes I say - down and welded, i.e on the 182, or Cherokee, but on the microlight I have to extend it and check it, so by mentioning it I don't have to change the downwind check for each and every type. KISS.
The microlight uses a Rotax, with no mixture, but it has a choke for starting which isn't used in the air in the manner of a mixture control, or carb.heat, but I still say them out loud to myself during the downwind check, and respond accordingly, and also check that the carb heat is stowed on finals - even tho' it isn't there, it will be tomorrow when I might fly the 182.
The 'questions' are identical, but the 'responses' remind me which type I'm flying - if I need reminding, and at my age ...... !
One time when I didn't bother to use the printed pre-flight checklist I'd made for a 'simple' microlight, I left the pitot cover on ! Sounds daft, but Murphy is always with us. If it can happen, it will. I now put the pitot cover in sight within the aircraft, not thrown on to a shelf in the hangar, as a lot do, so if I can't remember taking it off, and can't see the pitot tube - low wing aircraft - I can see it in the aircraft ! KISS
Last edited by ExSp33db1rd; 24th Sep 2011 at 09:11.
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Doing a 'down and welded' check in a fixed grear can lead to trouble in a retract. You train yourself, while flying the 'fixed', to chant "down & welded" and do nothing (there's nothing to do). This is setting you up to do the same in the retract!
However, if you know your aeroplane, how the extended gear affects the drag and perhaps the noise the aeroplane is making on final, then absence of such drag and noise will alert one that summat is not right. When I used ti fly the Yak 52 (no gear warning horn or auto-extend) I was always VERY aware how easy it would be to land gear up. One of our group members did so, after a go-around in a busy circuit.
Even religiously doing a 'gear down' check on short final isn't neccessarily a gauarantee..... If the pressure is on and the pilot is stressed it is still possible to do the check and still land gear-up. It's exactly what our fellow group member did!
However, if you know your aeroplane, how the extended gear affects the drag and perhaps the noise the aeroplane is making on final, then absence of such drag and noise will alert one that summat is not right. When I used ti fly the Yak 52 (no gear warning horn or auto-extend) I was always VERY aware how easy it would be to land gear up. One of our group members did so, after a go-around in a busy circuit.
Even religiously doing a 'gear down' check on short final isn't neccessarily a gauarantee..... If the pressure is on and the pilot is stressed it is still possible to do the check and still land gear-up. It's exactly what our fellow group member did!
Doing a 'down and welded' check in a fixed grear can lead to trouble in a retract.
To follow your philosophy would require me to have two different " memory " check lists to recall, one for fixed gear and prop. and one for retractable and variable. For the last 57 years I've used BUMPFF for my downwind check in every GA light aeroplane, and I ain't going to change now, should the aircraft require a more complicated check then I use the printed version, also I don't "chant" a reply in parrot fashion, one asks the question of oneself and replies with a considered answer, in a Cessna I could just say 'not applicable' - down and welded is only a bit of light relief - but at least it proves that I have thought about gear, which might be essential tomorrow when I fly my ALPI-300.
I've seen students read and respond to a printed check list without pause and without even lifting their eyes from the page - that's not the answer either, at least by mentioning it to myself there's a slight chance that I may do something about it when it matters. n'est ce pas ?
Doing a 'down and welded' check in a fixed grear can lead to trouble in a retract. You train yourself, while flying the 'fixed', to chant "down & welded" and do nothing (there's nothing to do). This is setting you up to do the same in the retract!
I do from time to time mix up the "down and welded" response to "gear is down, three bolts" when I fly fixed gear.
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Go with what your instructor wants is my advice - he/she should know!!!
Personally, I am taught to do ground cx from the checklists and Pre Descent, Pre Land, FREEDA, HASELL, FEEL cx in the air from memory.
Hope this helps.
Personally, I am taught to do ground cx from the checklists and Pre Descent, Pre Land, FREEDA, HASELL, FEEL cx in the air from memory.
Hope this helps.
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Thanks for your input everyone, these comments actually do represent both sides of the discussion however the most accurate in terms of what I do and what my instructor has me doing, is that on the ground, list comes out; in the air, mnemonics come out.
Thanks
Stuart
Thanks
Stuart
Moderator
what my instructor has me doing, is that on the ground, list comes out; in the air, mnemonics come out.
I see the overlying concept here, though it is a fine line between basic flying instruction, and resulting correct technique, type specific operating "to do's", and a checklist. Though there is cross over, which is an obvious safety requirement, each are still distinct from the other. Where do mnemonics (memory only items) fit into this?
To me the pilot actions associated with HASELL, GERTRUDE, FREDA, and all those other memorable women are basic flying instruction, and definitely not aircraft type specific. As such, though they might appear on a checklist developed by a flying school, or operator, it would probably more just co-incidental that they would appear in an aircraft manufacturer's type specific checklist. As such, I do not believe that anyone could claim (other than by a confirmation by cross checking both) that any mnemonic replaces the manufacturer's checklist.
Using the Flight Manual as a reference (and I have the C-172S one open now), the "to do" list section would equate best to the Amplified Procedures section. It tells you how to operate the [possibly] unique systems of the aircraft, which are type specific. Of course, there can be huge overlap to other similar types.
Now, back to the "checklist". The C-172S FM I have, as well as many others I have checked, says under Emergency Procedures Checklist:
Procedures in the Emergency Procedures Checklist portion of this section shown in bold faced type are immediate action items, which should be committed to memory.
The intent that Cessna have every pilot memorize certain checklist items is obvious. Cessna obviously feels that those items are memorize-able, and the pilot does have time to safely read the rest - in flight. If a mnemonic covers it (without overlooking any type specific item), that's great. But, does it for the next type you fly too?
It can be reasonably interpreted that Cessna does not intend that the pilot memorize the rest of the checklist, but they do still intend that the pilot use it, so reading it - in flight - is obviously intended. So the manufacturer has provided it, as they are required to do by regulation.
Is the pilot required to use it?
Quoting form the prevailing Canadian regulation:
602.60 (1) No person shall conduct a take-off in a power-driven aircraft, other than an ultra-light aeroplane, unless the following operational and emergency equipment is carried on board:
(a) a checklist or placards that enable the aircraft to be operated in accordance with the limitations specified in the aircraft flight manual, aircraft operating manual, pilot operating handbook or any equivalent document provided by the manufacturer;
...........
(2) A checklist or placards referred to in paragraph (1)(a) shall enable the aircraft to be operated in normal, abnormal and emergency conditions and shall include
(a) a pre-start check;
(b) a pre-take-off check;
(c) a post-take-off check;
(d) a pre-landing check; and
(e) emergency procedures.
(3) Emergency procedures referred to in paragraph (2)(e) shall include
(a) emergency operation of fuel, hydraulic, electrical and mechanical systems, where applicable;
(b) emergency operation of instruments and controls, where applicable;
(c) engine inoperative procedures; and
(d) any other procedure that is necessary for aviation safety.
(4) Checks and emergency procedures referred to in subsections (2) and (3) shall be performed and followed where they are applicable.
So, the pilot could argue that he/she had memorized the whole thing, and I suppose that a demonstration of type specific "total recall" to the enforcement inspector might get you through. But, if you're being asked, it's probably because something has gone wrong. If you are caught not referring to the checklist, and doing it wrong, I can imagine being cited for violating this (or your local equivalent) regulation in extreme circumstances.
Yes, I am being extreme here, and I often work from my "memorized" checklist when flying certain very familiar types, (though I pull out the paper every time in the Caravan or Navajo). But, a new pilot falling into this casual "trap" early in his/her career, will for certain require an adjustment to the right way of doing things, when flying in the "more professional" environment. Out will come the paper - every time- why not practice it now? It dissapoints me to think that instructors are condoning, or worse, teaching, this casual attitude toward reading the manufacturer's paper checklist in flight.
