We're taught to cut the throttle at the start of the final leg
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Although a long time ago, the time I flew the Monocoupe was for its permit renewal so was particularly looking at the stall and indications and I am pretty certain that on landing (which WAS 3 point) it was NOT giving pre stall indications, the attitude may be approaching the "fully stalled attitude" (which was the original post I remarked on), but I would be very surprised if it was AT this. Of course at this point you are decelerating rapidly, so on ground contact it should only be a VERY short period before you do run out of lift, but STALLING on landing gives VERY little room for getting it slightly wrong and AFAIK these aircraft are not known to be that unforgiving.
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There are times where landing near the stall is preferable there are also times where landing near the stall is dangerous.
Obviously different aircraft suit different techniques tail wheel one example but landing an aircraft is nothing to do with stall other than you want to be landing as slow as possible to stop as quick as possible.
An aircraft can be landed 30 kts above the stall speed or just on the stall
You may if your a skillful pilot and with a dollop of luck pull off a greaser 30 kts above stall and equally have a heavy landing at just above the stall!
Obviously 30 kts above stall will mean you will eat up a lot of runway as well as brakes but don't mix up landing as having to be near stall
Pace
Obviously different aircraft suit different techniques tail wheel one example but landing an aircraft is nothing to do with stall other than you want to be landing as slow as possible to stop as quick as possible.
An aircraft can be landed 30 kts above the stall speed or just on the stall
You may if your a skillful pilot and with a dollop of luck pull off a greaser 30 kts above stall and equally have a heavy landing at just above the stall!
Obviously 30 kts above stall will mean you will eat up a lot of runway as well as brakes but don't mix up landing as having to be near stall
Pace
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Haven't read the whole thread, so replying to the 1st post:
I assume by "cut" you mean completely close the throttle, and carry out a glide approach.
This is fine, and is obviously safer because if the engine fails you just continue the glide, but it knackers the engine by cooling it too rapidly. If you do this with a big engine, and you were flying at a reasonable power setting previously (which you may well be, on a retractable plane with the gear and half flap down) you will probably crack some cylinders.
I often fly a similar glide approach, but only if the engine has been cooled by running at low power during immediately preceeding few minutes.
I assume by "cut" you mean completely close the throttle, and carry out a glide approach.
This is fine, and is obviously safer because if the engine fails you just continue the glide, but it knackers the engine by cooling it too rapidly. If you do this with a big engine, and you were flying at a reasonable power setting previously (which you may well be, on a retractable plane with the gear and half flap down) you will probably crack some cylinders.
I often fly a similar glide approach, but only if the engine has been cooled by running at low power during immediately preceeding few minutes.
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You may if your a skillful pilot and with a dollop of luck pull off a greaser 30 kts above stall
Getting a greaser (or any kind of safe landing) in a typical GA tricycle aircraft at 30 knots faster than stall speed is very unlikely. You're much more likely to have a bucking, wheelbarrowing ride partway down the runway.
Should anyone doubt this, consider what it would be like to hold the aircraft on the runway 30 knots faster than it's comfortable rotation speed. It's about the same.
You'll find that flight manuals for tricycle aircraft will generall say something like "touchdown on the mainwheels first" in their normal procedures section. This will be very difficult to achieve at +30 knots...
If you make a good effort to touch the mainwheels first, and not the nosewheel, or tail tiedown ring, with a speed slowing to near the stall speed, you have the best chance for a "good" landing. Any variation to that procedure, gets you into less safe territory...
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Pace
I agree with you on this one...very sound post
I was trained in the powered approach method, and have found type coversions to more complex aircraft and twins quite straightforward.
We also did the steeper aproaches and exhaustive engine failure practice.
As a general rule, I find the most competent pilots I meet in GA do powered but fairly steepish approached with short final legs, and well within glide range.
"Submarine " long flat finals under power and out of glide range are inherently more dangerous. In Australia, on hot days with variable winds, you need a bit of inherent energy in the aircraft on aproach as a safety margin for loss of lift or stall situations.
I agree with you on this one...very sound post
I was trained in the powered approach method, and have found type coversions to more complex aircraft and twins quite straightforward.
We also did the steeper aproaches and exhaustive engine failure practice.
As a general rule, I find the most competent pilots I meet in GA do powered but fairly steepish approached with short final legs, and well within glide range.
"Submarine " long flat finals under power and out of glide range are inherently more dangerous. In Australia, on hot days with variable winds, you need a bit of inherent energy in the aircraft on aproach as a safety margin for loss of lift or stall situations.
Last edited by Mimpe; 23rd Aug 2011 at 13:10.
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A steep final approach also gives you quite a lot of protection from wind shear, because you have lots of spare power to deal with it.
If you fly a shallow approach, and get wind shear, you will just go down.
If flying into a runway which is close to a tall cliff, so one can get a lot of turbulence (and a lot of it as a downwards airflow) I would always fly a very steep final. For example, an approach from the top left into this airport (which is at the top of a tall cliff - not apparent from the picture) is best done steeply if there is any significant wind.
If you fly a shallow approach, and get wind shear, you will just go down.
If flying into a runway which is close to a tall cliff, so one can get a lot of turbulence (and a lot of it as a downwards airflow) I would always fly a very steep final. For example, an approach from the top left into this airport (which is at the top of a tall cliff - not apparent from the picture) is best done steeply if there is any significant wind.
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10540
Why would you glide down the runway unless you were holding for a lower speed?
Ok I have put 30 kts to grab attention but a citation with control problems landed at Edinburg with a radar estimated touch down speed of 200 kts 95 kts above the normal VREF speed albeit above the tyre limiting speeds but they got away with it it was a 24/7 aircraft.
In very high winds and shear you may elect to land at speeds much higher than normal and fly it onto the runway.
While we may want to land as slowly as possible I am purely pointing out that landing and the stall are not connected in the wAy some presume.
Pace
Why would you glide down the runway unless you were holding for a lower speed?
Ok I have put 30 kts to grab attention but a citation with control problems landed at Edinburg with a radar estimated touch down speed of 200 kts 95 kts above the normal VREF speed albeit above the tyre limiting speeds but they got away with it it was a 24/7 aircraft.
In very high winds and shear you may elect to land at speeds much higher than normal and fly it onto the runway.
While we may want to land as slowly as possible I am purely pointing out that landing and the stall are not connected in the wAy some presume.
Pace
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I am not a jet pilot 
but I gather that practically all jets have their wings rigged so that when the nosewheel touches down (and assuming the main wheels are down also 
) the wings produce a negative lift.
So the thing gets stuck to the runway, and "all" you need to plenty of rubber to burn...
Whereas the wings on most GA piston types produce considerable lift with all 3 wheels down, and IMHO at Vs+30 you will never hold it down with the elevator. It will just wheelbarrow.
but I gather that practically all jets have their wings rigged so that when the nosewheel touches down (and assuming the main wheels are down also ) the wings produce a negative lift.So the thing gets stuck to the runway, and "all" you need to plenty of rubber to burn...
Whereas the wings on most GA piston types produce considerable lift with all 3 wheels down, and IMHO at Vs+30 you will never hold it down with the elevator. It will just wheelbarrow.
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yes my style is let the thing land when it wants to land...I never think whether its near the stall or not. Nailing the speed on finals relative to the weight of the aircraft and the wind/runway conditions is the key.
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10540
As I said 30 kts above was an attention grabber figure.
Obviously the faster you are going the more elevator authority there will be and the more effect for a smaller movement. Yes the aircraft will be at flying speed so inappropriate movements would send you skyways.
Let me fire a question at you ? You arrive back at your airfield on low fuel and stronger winds than forecast.
Tower are giving 40 kts 40 degrees off with warnings of severe Down draughts all the way down the approach! This is in the TB20 how would you handle the landing including flap selection?
Pace
As I said 30 kts above was an attention grabber figure.
Obviously the faster you are going the more elevator authority there will be and the more effect for a smaller movement. Yes the aircraft will be at flying speed so inappropriate movements would send you skyways.
Let me fire a question at you ? You arrive back at your airfield on low fuel and stronger winds than forecast.
Tower are giving 40 kts 40 degrees off with warnings of severe Down draughts all the way down the approach! This is in the TB20 how would you handle the landing including flap selection?
Pace
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40/40 is just OK-ish given the max demo TB20 xw figure (25kts).
So I would land as per the POH i.e. full flap.
And fly a very steep approach Maybe at ~ 100kt most of the way down.
Better still, go elsewhere. I work with 20USG min computed FOB at destination, which is good for ~2hrs in the air.
So I would land as per the POH i.e. full flap.
And fly a very steep approach
Maybe at ~ 100kt most of the way down.Better still, go elsewhere. I work with 20USG min computed FOB at destination, which is good for ~2hrs in the air.
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25 kts is demonstrated not limiting! You have already added more speed down the approach (good move) but windshear goes to ground what would you do there presuming you are low on fuel and caught out! Say winds even stronger ? Has happened to me.
Is full flap in the TB recommended in strong wind situations? When would you use lower than full flap ? Ever? Would you use higher speeds in s clean landing?
Not point scoring just point making ; )
Pace
Is full flap in the TB recommended in strong wind situations? When would you use lower than full flap ? Ever? Would you use higher speeds in s clean landing?
Not point scoring just point making ; )
Pace
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On a big runway, say 2000m, I might use half flap.
But "windshear" and "severe downdraughts" are not the same thing. The former goes all the way down to surface (obviously) but the latter cannot (unless there is a big hole in the ground, where the runway starts ). To deal with the former, you fly a steep "glideslope" with plenty of power and speed in reserve. To deal with the latter, you would do as aforementioned and in addition try to land some distance after the runway starts.
There are limits on everything. What is possible (in terms of wind/turbulence) into a 2000m runway is not possible into a 500m runway, even if the latter is easily long enough normally.
But "windshear" and "severe downdraughts" are not the same thing. The former goes all the way down to surface (obviously) but the latter cannot (unless there is a big hole in the ground, where the runway starts
). To deal with the former, you fly a steep "glideslope" with plenty of power and speed in reserve. To deal with the latter, you would do as aforementioned and in addition try to land some distance after the runway starts.There are limits on everything. What is possible (in terms of wind/turbulence) into a 2000m runway is not possible into a 500m runway, even if the latter is easily long enough normally.
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Pilot Dar
Obviously I agree that demonstrated maybe limiting for some pilots!
Demonstrated may even be too much for some pilots!
Demonstrated may easily be exceeded by others!
10540
40 kts into the 500 metro strip may be fine with more speed as actual touchdown speed could be far less than normal
Pace
Obviously I agree that demonstrated maybe limiting for some pilots!
Demonstrated may even be too much for some pilots!
Demonstrated may easily be exceeded by others!
10540
40 kts into the 500 metro strip may be fine with more speed as actual touchdown speed could be far less than normal
Pace
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Obviously I agree
It's important that pilots understand what is a limitation, and what is not, but also realize their own, but then I know you agree! ; )