Stall Recovery Technique
and the only place it might happen is in the base to final turn,
It amazes me the number of people who happily bank to 30deg + on the climb out without a care in the world
and then the only possible recovery is a combination of a concurrent nose-down push, level wings if they are not level, and powering out of it
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Looking for the signals square at LHR
Posts: 236
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I'm astonished that umpteen years after the Wright brothers, this subject is still being discussed in such a basic way. Makes me wonder about the aerial competence of younger people.
"The only time I didn't use full power for incipient stall recoveries was when conducting post-maintenance flight test on the VC10K. We had to check that the various warnings occurred at the computes speeds; once we reached the stick shaker 'climb power' alone was sufficient - and better than inducing engine surge by pushing all throttles fully forward. The pitch attitude change needed was very slight."
Well, I know almost nothing about the VC10 but having flown as a passenger in a number, can confirm yet another opportunity lost by the British government/aircraft industry. Lovely aircraft. I know even less about turbine management but I would have thought that by the time the things had speeded up to "climb power", the nose might have dropped anyway. I wonder if we are talking about recovery from incipient spin conditions or a full-blown, fully stalled wing drop twirly wirly? Wouldn't fancy the latter with that T-tail. From my own experience, I would prefer to initiate recovery based on ASI information and not the gizmos but I appreciate they had to be tested.
Many years ago, I shared a breakfast with Capt. "Flaps" Rendall at Frankfurt when we were both grounded by weather. Don't suppose that would help much in spin recovery.
Gipsy Queen.
"The only time I didn't use full power for incipient stall recoveries was when conducting post-maintenance flight test on the VC10K. We had to check that the various warnings occurred at the computes speeds; once we reached the stick shaker 'climb power' alone was sufficient - and better than inducing engine surge by pushing all throttles fully forward. The pitch attitude change needed was very slight."
Well, I know almost nothing about the VC10 but having flown as a passenger in a number, can confirm yet another opportunity lost by the British government/aircraft industry. Lovely aircraft. I know even less about turbine management but I would have thought that by the time the things had speeded up to "climb power", the nose might have dropped anyway. I wonder if we are talking about recovery from incipient spin conditions or a full-blown, fully stalled wing drop twirly wirly? Wouldn't fancy the latter with that T-tail. From my own experience, I would prefer to initiate recovery based on ASI information and not the gizmos but I appreciate they had to be tested.
Many years ago, I shared a breakfast with Capt. "Flaps" Rendall at Frankfurt when we were both grounded by weather. Don't suppose that would help much in spin recovery.
Gipsy Queen.
Last edited by Gipsy Queen; 22nd Jul 2011 at 18:23.
I was referring to recovery at the stall warning stage; this occurs a fair while before the actual stall. The control column is used to define a pitch attitude; there is no question of the 'nose dropping' at this early stage. All climb power does is to minimise height loss by accelerating to normal cruise speed as quickly as is reasonably possible.
ASI information is emphatically NOT the primary reference for stall recovery!
'Flaps' was indeed a fine chap - as are his son and grand-daughter. She captained the last ever flight of an ex-airline standard VC10 when, on 27 Mar 2001, we flew ZA142 (G-ARVI) to its final resting place at RAF St Athan after 17 years of busy AAR operations with 101 Sqn. Probably the only aeroplane to have had 3 generations of the same family flying it as Captain! Nasty crosswind on a short, wet runway - she did very well.
ASI information is emphatically NOT the primary reference for stall recovery!
'Flaps' was indeed a fine chap - as are his son and grand-daughter. She captained the last ever flight of an ex-airline standard VC10 when, on 27 Mar 2001, we flew ZA142 (G-ARVI) to its final resting place at RAF St Athan after 17 years of busy AAR operations with 101 Sqn. Probably the only aeroplane to have had 3 generations of the same family flying it as Captain! Nasty crosswind on a short, wet runway - she did very well.
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Cheltenham
Posts: 153
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
we are taught 2 stall recoveries on the C152..........standard (control column only, i.e. CC foward till buffet stops+stall warner off - airspeed rises to 70kts -ease out of dive- climbing attitude...when less than 90kts - full power)and minimum height loss recovery(CC forward+full power+opp rudder...use elevator/aileron/rudder to ease gently out of dive) and one of my instructors is a CAA examiner.
Does the CAA notification mean that on my skills test I should now only use the standard recovery? Or still do both?
Does the CAA notification mean that on my skills test I should now only use the standard recovery? Or still do both?
Jude
Your "standard" is only usually an intermediate learning tool. What you've described as "minimum height loss" is the standard CAA recovery.
"Opposite rudder" is something you only do in a developed spin - simply use rudder to keep the ball in the middle. I suspect this is just a terminology issues and I can't imagine that you were taught anything except that.
Worth discussing with your instructor, but I imagine they will advise you to use this "minimum height loss" recovery in your skill test.
Just don't EVER apply power first, and you should be fine.
G
Your "standard" is only usually an intermediate learning tool. What you've described as "minimum height loss" is the standard CAA recovery.
"Opposite rudder" is something you only do in a developed spin - simply use rudder to keep the ball in the middle. I suspect this is just a terminology issues and I can't imagine that you were taught anything except that.
Worth discussing with your instructor, but I imagine they will advise you to use this "minimum height loss" recovery in your skill test.
Just don't EVER apply power first, and you should be fine.
G
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Hotel Gypsy
Posts: 2,821
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Yes, the stall recovery without power is a demonstration tool use to highlight the need to reduce AoA using pitch. Once you have that concept, you should then be taught how power will help minimise loss of altitude.
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: In the boot of my car!
Posts: 5,982
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I believe Pace is describing the recovery from incipient stall (the shaker)
The Citation 550 was not certificated with a stick shaker although many are fitted with the device.
I will have to get a more definative answer but holding attitude with the nose on the horizon and powering out is the " STALL " recovery method taught on the 550.
This goes against my instincts too and my guess is that this recovery is taught because of the large altitude loss pitching the nose even a small amount in this jet.
But no mention of incipient.
Pace
Join Date: May 2001
Posts: 10,815
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Pace I would presume though to fly the Citation with the nose on the horizon this would mean that you would have had to reduce the AoA from the stalling attitude which I presume would be about 15-20 degrees nose up?
So it is the same as the CAA recommendation ie reduce the AoA. Its just giving you an attitude to go for. Which isn't a bad idea in my opinion because it stops folk sticking the nose way down more than required which is another very common fault. And a slippery beast like the citation I would presume that giving it 5-10degs nose down at full power is going to get you through Vmo pretty quick.
So it is the same as the CAA recommendation ie reduce the AoA. Its just giving you an attitude to go for. Which isn't a bad idea in my opinion because it stops folk sticking the nose way down more than required which is another very common fault. And a slippery beast like the citation I would presume that giving it 5-10degs nose down at full power is going to get you through Vmo pretty quick.
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: In the boot of my car!
Posts: 5,982
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Interesting I read two reports on a canard and husky flight test.
The canard in the stall purely stalled the canard dropping the nose and uninstalling the canard.
Stick back and the aircraft sat bobbing up and down.
The other was a Husky where the pilot put in full aft stick and holding the stick back just added full power. The aircraft kicked it's heals and climbed away.
The Citation in a full stall has a tendency to drop the nose adding forward pressure would give a v high descent rate.
The CAA added that the manufactures Recommendations override their own recommendations.
Pace
The canard in the stall purely stalled the canard dropping the nose and uninstalling the canard.
Stick back and the aircraft sat bobbing up and down.
The other was a Husky where the pilot put in full aft stick and holding the stick back just added full power. The aircraft kicked it's heals and climbed away.
The Citation in a full stall has a tendency to drop the nose adding forward pressure would give a v high descent rate.
The CAA added that the manufactures Recommendations override their own recommendations.
Pace
Join Date: May 2001
Posts: 10,815
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Must admit I quite like that the citation does have an attitude to go for.
Saves any discussions on the debrief, in essance its the same as the CAA but it has a defined limits to the nose attitude acceptable. Gets rid of personal interpretation by the examinor
Saves any discussions on the debrief, in essance its the same as the CAA but it has a defined limits to the nose attitude acceptable. Gets rid of personal interpretation by the examinor
Pace , I am confused , you initially posted
You are now saying put the nose on the horizon.
I suspect one of the proabable scenarios for a stick shaker activation on a basic small jet without autothrottle would be the level of ,after a descent, with the failure to reapply power. The autopilot will level the aircraft at the preselected altitude but the throttles will remain at idle or reduced power.
As the aircraft slows the A/P will trim noseup to maintain altitude until eventually the stickshaker would be activated. Now the nose will be pitched quite high, so are you saying maintain that attitude for stickshaker activation and try to use power alone to accelerate and reduce the angle of attack, or are you now saying, pitch down to the horizon, accept the height loss and achieve a rapid reduction of AofA?
Powering out of a stall is common on jets where on the Citation the technique is to hold the attitude while applying full thrust until the aircraft flies out.
I suspect one of the proabable scenarios for a stick shaker activation on a basic small jet without autothrottle would be the level of ,after a descent, with the failure to reapply power. The autopilot will level the aircraft at the preselected altitude but the throttles will remain at idle or reduced power.
As the aircraft slows the A/P will trim noseup to maintain altitude until eventually the stickshaker would be activated. Now the nose will be pitched quite high, so are you saying maintain that attitude for stickshaker activation and try to use power alone to accelerate and reduce the angle of attack, or are you now saying, pitch down to the horizon, accept the height loss and achieve a rapid reduction of AofA?
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: In the boot of my car!
Posts: 5,982
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Bingo
I am not always clear. The best way is to describe a created stall in the aircraft clean.
Reduce thrust! handlflying maintain altitude as speed decays. This will obviously increase the AOA. Not all Citation 2 s have shakers so presume this one doesnt as the shaker is clouding the issue.
At the onset of the stall instant full thrust while initially holding the attitude and ease the column pressure rather than a positive push as speed increases.
This is the way taught for minimal altitude loss in the 550.
The one time I reverted to my normal stall recovery by picthing the nose as well as adding thrust the altitude loss was far greater and resulted in a telling off by the examiner. I have had a number of examiners in the aircraft. They all insist on the same technique.
Levelling off clean is unlikely to result in a stall as the aircraft is pretty slippery 60-70 % N1 will give 200 kts IAS low level so over double the stall speed.
More likely on approach with lots of drag out ie full landing flap and gear or even speedbrakes or back at VREF for landing.
High level climbs where IAS is low.
Pace
I am not always clear. The best way is to describe a created stall in the aircraft clean.
Reduce thrust! handlflying maintain altitude as speed decays. This will obviously increase the AOA. Not all Citation 2 s have shakers so presume this one doesnt as the shaker is clouding the issue.
At the onset of the stall instant full thrust while initially holding the attitude and ease the column pressure rather than a positive push as speed increases.
This is the way taught for minimal altitude loss in the 550.
The one time I reverted to my normal stall recovery by picthing the nose as well as adding thrust the altitude loss was far greater and resulted in a telling off by the examiner. I have had a number of examiners in the aircraft. They all insist on the same technique.
Levelling off clean is unlikely to result in a stall as the aircraft is pretty slippery 60-70 % N1 will give 200 kts IAS low level so over double the stall speed.
More likely on approach with lots of drag out ie full landing flap and gear or even speedbrakes or back at VREF for landing.
High level climbs where IAS is low.
Pace
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Scotland
Posts: 240
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Pace,
I'm still inclined to pick at this one a bit more. You describe being "taught" a stall recovery technique, and then demonstrating it to an examiner on several occasions. Based on the use of words, I rather suspect you are still talking about an incipient stall. As far as I know, actually stalling a Citation is not part of the type rating training and check ride, only the approach to the stall and the subsequent recovery.
Exploring the fully developed stall in a multi-engine jet is a specialist subject - which I have had the pleasure of being taught as part of test pilot training. It's quite exciting, and even your examiner may not have seen it done before, so if you really stalled your Citation on a check-ride I am not surprised that you were chastised!
I'm still inclined to pick at this one a bit more. You describe being "taught" a stall recovery technique, and then demonstrating it to an examiner on several occasions. Based on the use of words, I rather suspect you are still talking about an incipient stall. As far as I know, actually stalling a Citation is not part of the type rating training and check ride, only the approach to the stall and the subsequent recovery.
Exploring the fully developed stall in a multi-engine jet is a specialist subject - which I have had the pleasure of being taught as part of test pilot training. It's quite exciting, and even your examiner may not have seen it done before, so if you really stalled your Citation on a check-ride I am not surprised that you were chastised!
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: In the boot of my car!
Posts: 5,982
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Yes recoveries are at the incipient stage. Where I feel the issue is clouded is the talk of stick shaker stage. The citation 550 was not certificated with a stick shaker. Obviously there are not two recovery methods! One to incipient stall and one to fully developed.
The one to incipient is THE recovery method recommended by Cessna on.the 550.
For recurrents the norm is obviously incipient although I have experienced a full stall with one particular examiner.
Pace
The one to incipient is THE recovery method recommended by Cessna on.the 550.
For recurrents the norm is obviously incipient although I have experienced a full stall with one particular examiner.
Pace
