Using the IMC abroad..
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For those reasons I dont understand the point of the presentation to which you link 421C
On the subject of relevance, how is the Milk Float story relevant to Nick's question? What analogy are you drawing between that and a pilot confronted with a solid overcast, as described in his question?
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Originally Posted by 421C
Maintain VFR and either go back to get under the layer in VMC or divert to somewhere you can land at within your licence and rating privileges. If you can't, declare an emergency. It's black and white.
That applies to both the pilot AND the aircraft.
My stupidity was brought home very forcefully when faced with the challenge of trying to follow a DCT routing in controlled airspace in a busy TMA to a grass airfield with no navigation or approach aids in solid, turbulent IMC in a rented club cherokee with no autopilot, 1 radio, 1 VOR, no RNAV, no glideslope receiver and no mode C transponder without the faintest idea of how I was going to descend at the end of the flight. Fear of prosecution held me back from declaring an emergency, another highly questionable decision.
If you ever find yourself in a similar situation, I can assure you with heartfelt feeling that you will wish very much that you were somewhere else.
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2 of the pilots had FAA IRs, one an IMCr and one a PPL. I suspect they all thought that they were applying "a certain level of intelligence, presence and ability to assess situations". To me it illustrates, amongst other things, the seductive danger of making up your own rules because you judge it to be ok.
Well exactly - the fact that three of them were doing something they were "qualified" to do, didnt help them. Believing that you are displaying intelligence and presence is very different from displaying intelligence and presence. You would be a fool to think any set of rules can protect you from a misplaced belief.
On the subject of relevance, how is the Milk Float story relevant to Nick's question? What analogy are you drawing between that and a pilot confronted with a solid overcast, as described in his question?
421C - now I am worrying about you, isnt it obvious?
Let me put it another way. Nick turns up at his destination at FL45, there is a solid undercast with tops 4,500 and the METAR reports the base at 3,500. He has checked his MSA which is 2,500 for miles around. He is OCAS. His diversion is 40 minutes away and this being France he cant get the weather for his diversion. He has an IMCr, (or he could have a JAA IR, and a FAA 61.8 without instrument priviliges and be flying an N reg aircraft) is very current and wouldnt think twice about making the descent in the UK. In fact he notes there are even bits in the cloud layer where he can just make out the ground.
Now what would you do? Ah, I know declare a Pan, or maybe even a Mayday, or divert, find there is also the same overcast at your diversion and again declare a Pan, or Mayday, or perhaps you did that before you diverted to make sure you had really got everyones attention? OK, so if that is your assessment of the situation, sure play it that way
just the same as staying behind the milk float for the three mile stretch.Let me give you a real life example. Many years ago I did some aero sorties with a BA training captain. His background; well a few years in the RAF, fast jets and all that old boy, how many tens of thousands of hours with BA, I dont recall, well we got ourselves above the overcast through a hole and played around doing some loops but when it was time to stop playing I was horrified to see the holes had all but disappeared. I didnt have an instrument rating. Strangely enough nor did he - well not single crew SEP. I cant recall exactly what we did as we found ourselves at 3,500 feet in 10K vis beneath the base that we had previously been above but then again I wasnt flying at the time. I dont recall the acknowledgement of a Pan but who knows maybe he had inadvertently selected the wrong frequency and didnt get any response so used some common sense and a little intelligence. Whether he was up to the descent of course was questionable.
My stupidity was brought home very forcefully when faced with the challenge of trying to follow a DCT routing in controlled airspace in a busy TMA to a grass airfield with no navigation or approach aids in solid, turbulent IMC in a rented club cherokee with no autopilot, 1 radio, 1 VOR, no RNAV, no glideslope receiver and no mode C transponder without the faintest idea of how I was going to descend at the end of the flight. Fear of prosecution held me back from declaring an emergency, another highly questionable decision.
Sorry to be blunt, but you were stupid.
This has nothing to do with my examples any more than most of the earlier post. You didnt make an intelligent assessment of the situation.
Last edited by Fuji Abound; 2nd Jun 2011 at 11:24.
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Originally Posted by Fuji Abound
Sorry to be blunt, but you were stupid.
I made some extremely stupid decisions that day, but I am not normally a stupid person. I posted the story because it is a real life example of how having an IMCr can seduce you into a dangerous spiral of ever-more irrational decision making. Without in any way seeking to condone what I did, the additional pressures of flying single-pilot IFR in a typical club rental aircraft are not conducive to clarity of thought when the difficult choices have to be made.
At the time of that flight, I was much the same age as the OP, and also "new to it". I learned the limits of my licence and capabilities the hard way and hope my story will help someone else from making the same mistakes.
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I made some extremely stupid decisions that day, but I am not normally a stupid person. I posted the story because it is a real life example of how having an IMCr can seduce you into a dangerous spiral of ever-more irrational decision making. Without in any way seeking to condone what I did, the additional pressures of flying single-pilot IFR in a typical club rental aircraft are not conducive to clarity of thought when the difficult choices have to be made.
.. and thank you for the post, no criticism intended.
I would add one qualifier. Your post could be construed to relate specifically to the IMCr but (and I appreciate that is the topic we are debating). it does apply to anything. Many of us did some pretty stupid things when we first got our PPL (not involving clouds), or our driving licence or what ever. The IMC rating is no different in what it can and cant seduce you into doing if you allow it to do so.
Some might say it doesnt teach you enough about instrument flying to know your limits and / or it doesnt teach you to fly on instruments but only get out of trouble on instruments (or into trouble
). Would they possibly be the same people who believe the FAA IR has no place in Europe, or those who would argue that while the IMCr legally enables you to fly an approach to the published minima you have no business doing so or might it even be the same folk that think the JAA IR gives you everything you need to fly IFR around Europe from the off. Are these the same people that would far rather a tiny percentage of GA pilots in Europe held an instrument rating while the rest occasionally killed themselves? Thank God for the wisdom of our own beloved CAA and the FAA on this one and may the Devil deal with EASA in the fullness of time.
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Fuji,
Wonderful with hindsight. But how do I judge in flight if I am merely "believing" or actually exercising?
I don't know what set of rules you are talking about. The rule I am talking about, the one about not continuing VFR into IMC does protect you from the potentially misplaced belief that it is ok to do so.
I typed it before, but I'll repaste my opinion on Nick's scenario. "Maintain VFR and either go back to get under the layer in VMC or divert to somewhere you can land at within your licence and rating privileges. If you can't, declare an emergency. "
How is this complicated? Nick asked a simple question to which there is a simple answer. Any number of stories about Milk FLoats or BA Captains or Chuck Yeager or the Red Arrows or anything else won't change this.
brgds
421C
Believing that you are displaying intelligence and presence is very different from displaying intelligence and presence.
You would be a fool to think any set of rules can protect you from a misplaced belief
Now what would you do?
How is this complicated? Nick asked a simple question to which there is a simple answer. Any number of stories about Milk FLoats or BA Captains or Chuck Yeager or the Red Arrows or anything else won't change this.
brgds
421C
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Your post could be construed to relate specifically to the IMCr
Some might say it doesnt teach you enough .......Would they possibly be the same people who believe......
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It seems inevitable that if you are allowed to fly above cloud in France that at some point a situation will arise where you need to break cloud in order to land
I'm with 421C on this. I've flown on top of clouds on a number of occasions, but never where I couldn't see a way back down.
You need to be able see a way back down. That might be the end of the overcast a few miles off tracks, or it might be holes of sufficient size within view. When your last hole is starting to leave view you have little choice but to turn towards it and use that way out. If you don't then you run the risk of being in a situation that you describe. I don't think many pilots who don't have instrument qualifications but do have VFR on top privlidges will continue on in such a situation.
If they did continue on, then their principal escape route has to be to return to an area of known good conditions, but of course that could have changed by the time that they return to it.
So if you decide to continue on top with no escape route other than "expecting better weather ahead" then you are letting your instrument skills lead you further than you would go without them. The trouble is your instrument skills can't legally be used in France, so of course you can expect to have your decisions questioned afterwards.
As Pace say, you are not likely to be questioned for using your skills to get out of the situation, but more likely to be questioned for how you got yourself into the situation in the first place.
Those talking about forecasts of Sct or Bkn at the destination have gotten too use to instrument flying! No VFR only pilot with any sense will fly over an overcast relying on a weather forecast for a way back down. We all know that they can't be relied on like that.
IO540 said many years ago on a different subject, but is relevant to this...."you must always make sure that you have a way out." Hopeing that the forecast at your destination will prove true isn't having a way out, but rather 'hoping for a way out'.
If your only way out is to use skills that you aren't legally entitled to exercise in that country, then of course you are leaving yourself open to question. If you take that risk then yes envitably you will eventually have to use that skill that you arn't legally entitled to use, but most sensible pilots without such a skill would never have gotten themselves into that situation in the first place.
So...no gray area as far as I'm concerned. 421C has it spot on.
dp
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I typed it before, but I'll repaste my opinion on Nick's scenario. "Maintain VFR and either go back to get under the layer in VMC or divert to somewhere you can land at within your licence and rating privileges. If you can't, declare an emergency. "
Good. Declare your emergency, tell the controller (I wonder which one you are going to talk to in some parts of France) of your situation and that you have an instrument rating which you cant use in the aircraft or airspace in which you find yourself and therefore you have no alternative to ask him what to do. Mention while you are about it that there is 1,000 foot of undercast with tops way above the MSA and you were thinking about transitioning from VMC on top to VMC below.
If that is the way you want to play it, fine by be.
I don't know what set of rules you are talking about. The rule I am talking about, the one about not continuing VFR into IMC does protect you from the potentially misplaced belief that it is ok to do so.
What a complete load of nonesense.
We are debating whether there are any circumstances in which a qualified, trained and current pilot should or should not make a brief incursion into IMC for the purposes of recovering to an airfield that was forecast to have broken or scattered cloud cover with a base well above the MSA not a pilot deliberately flying a sector in IMC with a IAP recovery in IMC.
The fact you dont see the difference is for the same reason that you dont see the difference between making an intelligent and informed decision and making a prat of yourself.
Still I can see we are clearly in complete disagreement so I am going to leave it there.
(all good fun and dont take it personally, I know there are those that always see things in black and white and are uncomfortable ever departing from the rule book regardless of circumstances - I dont have a problem with that I might add if that is your cup of tea).
Dp
If scattered or broken is not good enough for you then I can only imagine you dont go very far.
and when the holes are just a little too small to not be actually in IMC but to still be outside your licence priviliges by all means divert back to whence you came, all fine by me.
Last edited by Fuji Abound; 2nd Jun 2011 at 13:18.
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Hello!
That was me with this story and not the guy you repiled to, but it dosen't really matter. I think this story about „my“ airline captain is not such a bad analogy to the IMCr outside the UK: This guy has a valid instrument rating and was flying in a perfectly safe way, but his rating did not apply to the type of aircraft he was flying. Therefore he was prosecuted. The holder of IMCr rating is flying perfectly safe too, but outside the UK his rating is unknown and therefore nonexistent. Therefore he will be prosecuted if he gets caught using it. Simply put (see bolow).
For flying abroad (wordwide!), there is a very simple basic rule that applies to private and commercial pilots/operations: You must comply with the more stringent/restrictive set of rules between your national legislation/privileges and those of the country overflown.
For example: In Germany, flying VFR on top of an overcast is perfectly legal with a private pilots license, provided the ascent above and the descent below the clouds can be performed according to the visual flight rules and the aircraft is equipped for radio navigation. If a "normal" UK PPL does not allow this, then the UK PPL holder can not fly VFR on top in Germany. His more restrictive national rule overrides the foreign one. But if he is allowed to do so with UK PPL & IMCr, then he can also do it in Germany because he complies with national and foreign rules, even if the IMCr itself is nonexistent in Germany.
On the other hand, there is no such thing as instrument flying outside controlled airspace in Germany. Therefore, all other possible uses of the IMCr are banned by foreign rules, because an instrument rating is required for flying IFR _within_ controlled airspace. Simple, isn't it?
Happy landings,
max
...or Airline Captain stories.
For flying abroad (wordwide!), there is a very simple basic rule that applies to private and commercial pilots/operations: You must comply with the more stringent/restrictive set of rules between your national legislation/privileges and those of the country overflown.
For example: In Germany, flying VFR on top of an overcast is perfectly legal with a private pilots license, provided the ascent above and the descent below the clouds can be performed according to the visual flight rules and the aircraft is equipped for radio navigation. If a "normal" UK PPL does not allow this, then the UK PPL holder can not fly VFR on top in Germany. His more restrictive national rule overrides the foreign one. But if he is allowed to do so with UK PPL & IMCr, then he can also do it in Germany because he complies with national and foreign rules, even if the IMCr itself is nonexistent in Germany.
On the other hand, there is no such thing as instrument flying outside controlled airspace in Germany. Therefore, all other possible uses of the IMCr are banned by foreign rules, because an instrument rating is required for flying IFR _within_ controlled airspace. Simple, isn't it?
Happy landings,
max
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Good. Declare your emergency, tell the controller (I wonder which one you are going to talk to in some parts of France) of your situation and that you have an instrument rating which you cant use in the aircraft or airspace in which you find yourself and therefore you have no alternative to ask him what to do. Mention while you are about it that there is 1,000 foot of undercast with tops way above the MSA and you were thinking about transitioning from VMC on top to VMC below
How can you possibly mangle and misrepresent a perfectly plain statement like: "Maintain VFR and either go back to get under the layer in VMC or divert to somewhere you can land at within your licence and rating privileges. If you can't, declare an emergency."
You know exactly what I meant by "declare an emergency". The controller I am going to talk to is the one relevant to this scenario: remember that? The mythical French airport I am flying to from the UK which goes from BKN forecast to actual OVC? Well, most French airports which are customs and provide a TAF have an ATC service (either based at the airport, or a approach service from a nearby airport or both). So if I really do find myself unexpectedly above this layer and without a safe alternative course of action then, of course, I declare that to ATC and either make a request or state my intentions as I judge fit to ensure the safety of the flight - but I will expect to account for my actions and judgement subsequently. Let's be clear, it takes a pretty contrived scenario to get to this point, but if I had written only "Maintain VFR and either go back to get under the layer in VMC or divert to somewhere you can land at within your licence and rating privileges", that would not be 100% complete advice and you'd no doubt have pointed that out.
I do find it extraordinary there is even a "debate" to be had on this.
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Originally Posted by Fuji Abound
The fact you dont see the difference is for the same reason that you dont see the difference between making an intelligent and informed decision and making a prat of yourself.
One thing I'd say to the OP - start out by getting as much experience as you can flying in real weather. I probably owe my life to my ex-airline captain instructor, who somehow managed things so that the vast majority of my IMCr training was done in actual IMC.
The difference between descending through a thousand feet of cloud and hand flying for an extended period in turbulent Wx with no visual reference is considerable.
Do this outside CAS in the UK with some form of radar service & and make sure you have a rock-solid legal alternate in case the Wx deteriorates & you need to divert.
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421C
Clearly we are at cross purposes as I have already said or you are just plain trying to be difficult.
I dont care how unlikely the circusmtances are; the poster asked the question. I have a feeling you have done plenty of touring so I have to add your comment surprises me. I am with IO540 in his earlier post about the real world circumstances of touring, but there it is, your experiences are obviously very different from all (not most) of the people I know.
As to the point at issue, it is only that you would declare an emergency in the scenario given if for whatever reason a diversion did not produce the desired results. Where I in that situation (in the very carefully worded example I gave) and hypothetically if I didnt have an instrument rating which I was entitled to use in that specific circumstance for a purely technical reason I wouldnt take the same course. (and in case you are trying to bate me into an admission of acting illegally of course I have never found myself in that situation)
So you do it your way and I will do it mine.
The gentleman who asked the question and anyone else will make their own decision.
You have made a pr** of yourself. However you began your day if that is something you ended up doing then it has nothing to do with a sensible pilot making an informed decision about arriving above an overcast that was never remotely forecast to be a problem beyond a brief incursion into IMC for the purpose of a visual recovery.
Which was why we were not debating this issue. The trick is to read the question which posters on PPRuNe seem to have become very poor at doing. (Oh this is fun today, love a bit pf PPRuNe stirring).
Clearly we are at cross purposes as I have already said or you are just plain trying to be difficult.
I dont care how unlikely the circusmtances are; the poster asked the question. I have a feeling you have done plenty of touring so I have to add your comment surprises me. I am with IO540 in his earlier post about the real world circumstances of touring, but there it is, your experiences are obviously very different from all (not most) of the people I know.
As to the point at issue, it is only that you would declare an emergency in the scenario given if for whatever reason a diversion did not produce the desired results. Where I in that situation (in the very carefully worded example I gave) and hypothetically if I didnt have an instrument rating which I was entitled to use in that specific circumstance for a purely technical reason I wouldnt take the same course. (and in case you are trying to bate me into an admission of acting illegally of course I have never found myself in that situation
)So you do it your way and I will do it mine.
The gentleman who asked the question and anyone else will make their own decision.
Thing is, it's all too easy to begin your day with the intentions of doing the former, and end up doing the latter. What if you descend & find you're still in solid IFR at MSA?
However you began your day if that is something you ended up doing then it has nothing to do with a sensible pilot making an informed decision about arriving above an overcast that was never remotely forecast to be a problem beyond a brief incursion into IMC for the purpose of a visual recovery.
The difference between descending through a thousand feet of cloud and hand flying for an extended period in turbulent Wx with no visual reference is considerable.
Which was why we were not debating this issue. The trick is to read the question which posters on PPRuNe seem to have become very poor at doing. (Oh this is fun today, love a bit pf PPRuNe stirring).
Last edited by Fuji Abound; 2nd Jun 2011 at 13:55.
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Dp
If scattered or broken is not good enough for you then I can only imagine you dont go very far.
If scattered or broken is not good enough for you then I can only imagine you dont go very far.
Given your normal good nature, I take it that you're not deliberitly trying to be insulting, and you've just grossly misread my post.
Nowhere in my post did I say that I don't fly when there is a scattered or broken layer.
Nowhere did I say that I won't fly above a scattered or broken layer.
The only mention in my post of broken and scattered layers was:
Those talking about forecasts of Sct or Bkn at the destination have gotten too use to instrument flying! No VFR only pilot with any sense will fly over an overcast relying on a weather forecast for a way back down. We all know that they can't be relied on like that.
I really can't belive that you can't see that.
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Do this outside CAS in the UK with some form of radar service & and make sure you have a rock-solid legal alternate in case the Wx deteriorates & you need to divert.
Re your other Q about getting stuck above a layer, of course it can happen; wx is not 100% predictable. What one does is make sure the tafs and metars for the destination are SCT or better. IF this fails (and I don't recall it ever failing for me, largely because most of my long VFR trips were to warn southern countries) the official legal procedure is to declare an emergency and ask for the IAP.
There is an "unofficial option" which is safe at coastal airports where there is a way to descend OCAS over the sea, and then call up the airport when under the cloud, and I believe this very obvious method is a national past-time in countries which don't have the IMCR.
Re the other man's comment, the alleged hostility to the IMCR abroad is far less than claimed. Most GA pilots would give an arm for it. France has just announced its own "IMCR", in a finger-up to EASA. The official resistance to an "IMCR" is simply that it is perceived to undermine the IR which, along with vital capabilities like goolies dangling very symmetrically, has over the decades become the gold standard for "professional pilots". The IMCR is virtually an IR, except for Class A-C and needing 1800m vis, but is much more achievable, and if it became widespread, the airline pilot unions would go berserk because of the perceived undermining of the 14-exam CPL/IR to which their member status has been (inexplicably) nailed. There is no safety case underpinning any of this; the IMCR has a superb safety record.
I probably owe my life to my ex-airline captain instructor, who somehow managed things so that the vast majority of my IMCr training was done in actual IMC.
BTW you can land at Luton, Gatwick, Stansted, London City today, with an IMCR, as they are all Class D. They just cost about £500, and LCY does not allow GA anyway. Heathrow is Class A so you can't go there (and they don't allow GA also). The 1st 3 are perfectly doable with something like 24hr PPR. The PPR and the £500 make sure these airports are closed to GA even if there is nothing going on.
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Dp
I apologise, but you seem to being confusing different aspects of the debate which lead to my comments.
If you meant literally this, then I would agree. I took your comment to be in the context of the debate. In other words the pilot was an instrument rated pilot but technically restricted to VFR because for example he held an FAA IR but the aircraft had a G on the side.
So our hapless instrument rated pilot set out on the basis of a scattered or broken forecast, pitched up at the destination to find a mild overcast (no question of an IAP, no question of undercast any where close to MSA etc), and in any event capable, current and qualified to fly an approach to minima were there only an N on the side and our hapless pilot must decide what to do. (and I have only converted the qualification away from the OP IMCr to an IR because I know some on here let their emotions run away with them at the mention of a IMCr).
If I could remind you that was effectively the question.
421C (assuming he cant find a VMC descent) would have him declare an emergency; I have taken a different point of view.
That is it. Nothing about pilots without instrument ratings bouncing around in severe turbulence and shooting IAP to minima without telling anyone, or pressing on into fog and landing in the side of someones hill, or pitching up at destination being surprised that broken has become overcast.
I do wish we could stick to the debate rather than ply all the usual dribble out (as sensible as it is) about why a non instrument rated pilot should never go near a cloud.
I apologise, but you seem to being confusing different aspects of the debate which lead to my comments.
No VFR only pilot
So our hapless instrument rated pilot set out on the basis of a scattered or broken forecast, pitched up at the destination to find a mild overcast (no question of an IAP, no question of undercast any where close to MSA etc), and in any event capable, current and qualified to fly an approach to minima were there only an N on the side and our hapless pilot must decide what to do. (and I have only converted the qualification away from the OP IMCr to an IR because I know some on here let their emotions run away with them at the mention of a IMCr).
If I could remind you that was effectively the question.
421C (assuming he cant find a VMC descent) would have him declare an emergency; I have taken a different point of view.
That is it. Nothing about pilots without instrument ratings bouncing around in severe turbulence and shooting IAP to minima without telling anyone, or pressing on into fog and landing in the side of someones hill, or pitching up at destination being surprised that broken has become overcast.
I do wish we could stick to the debate rather than ply all the usual dribble out (as sensible as it is) about why a non instrument rated pilot should never go near a cloud.
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I dont care how unlikely the circusmtances are; the poster asked the question.
I have a feeling you have done plenty of touring so I have to add your comment surprises me. I am with IO540 in his earlier post about the real world circumstances of touring, but there it is, your experiences are obviously very different from all (not most) of the people I know
Of course, my utility would have been greatly increased by not having to conform to VFR. But let's not kid ourselves that the weather springs unforseeable surprises that often. It is either poor planning or very bad luck.
Where I in that situation (in the very carefully worded example I gave) and hypothetically if I didnt have an instrument rating which I was entitled to use in that specific circumstance for a purely technical reason I wouldnt take the same course. (and in case you are trying to bate me into an admission of acting illegally of course I have never found myself in that situation 
)
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The sooner its got rid of the better. Roll on 2012.
If I was making such a comment, suggesting that ripping several thousand pilots of some privilege is somehow desirable, I would feel a moral obligation to disclose the full story about how I obtained my pilot papers, over the years... A pity that one of the most hilarious pilot forum threads ever was deleted (for legal reasons, I assume) after only about 3 days