Sitting in the Right Hand Seat as P1.

[The Dead Side]

Hi All,

I'd like a piece of advice if possible please;

I'm hoping to take a friend flying to take some photos of his house from the air. I'll mention now that he is in no way qualified to fly, but just wants to get the best possible shots.

Unfortunately, the only way of getting decent photographs from a PA-28 is through the hatch window on the left hand side. What are the rules and regulations regarding letting him sit on the left hand side, whilst I fly as P1 on the right hand side?

All the instruments are shared, so there are very few instrument differences. Also, I've flown this very aircraft as P2 on the right hand side, so I have no qualms in doing so.

Appreciate your help on this,

Dead Side.

[Mictheslik]

Can't help with the legalities of flying P1 in the RHS, but as a photographer who's taken photos from a PA28, you can shoot through the perspex.....just got to work out where the non-curved parts are and it helps to have a rubber lens hood to get rid of reflections

.mic

[ShyTorque]

Some Flight Manuals give guidance on this. What does yours say?

Also:
Can you reach everything?
Can you fly it properly from that seat?
Does that seat have brake pedals?
Does the owner allow it?
Does the insurer allow it?

Be careful.

[Halfbaked_Boy]

TDS,

I spent most of last Summer flying P1 from the right hand seat on aerial photo 'sorties'.

It's simple -

Is it legal? Yes, doesn't matter where the commander sits so long as he/she is a pilot and has access to the full range of controls.

Is it safe? So long as you have recent currency and are comfortable flying from the RHS, then yes. I won't patronize you with the ins and outs of why, as I'm sure you're aware, suffice to say, remember you'll be throttling with a hand not used to throttling, and controlling with a hand... Etc.

Be safe, and if in any doubt, go up for a few circuits with an instructor first

p.s. despite the remark above, the pictures will never be as good through perspex, curve or no curve. You'll only get the best quality when there's nothing between the camera lens and the object(s) you're shooting. Have you considered the Cessna 172 - you can open the whole window then!

[Ryan5252]

Also worth considering that not all PA28's have toe brakes fitted to the RHS! There are few AAIB reports where the man in the right overlooked this fact.

[SkyCamMK]

RHS

Dual controls are exactly that but the experience of using a new seat and of using the other hand while concentrating and circling at 1200 feet or so can be hazardous and more so if you use flap.

Of course it all depends on your skill, attitude and experience.

Your mate will probably find it difficult finding his house and also pointing it out to you so that you can keep it in range and in sight.

I would not bother with a PA28 for this task of course but if that is all you have please take care. You cannot afford to get involved with his viewfinder skills whilst flying. Make sure your stall warner is working and that you can recover from spiral descent and incipient spin in case you overdo the bank/speed/AoA etc don't forget Murphy's Law

Hope they turn out OK

[gooneydog]

You will also have to "hope" that you do not need to change fuel tanks while airborne !!!!!!

[Halfbaked_Boy]

You cannot afford to get involved with his viewfinder skills whilst flying.

Had to laugh at this one - not in a 'have a poke' way at you though!

I spent 50% of my time looking out the left window past my photographer to help him get the best shots during steep turns, 45% of the time looking out ahead for other aircraft, and about 5% on the instruments. No stall warner!

Point being, it's amazing how a little intensive flying allows you to fly completely by noise and vibration alone! I'm sure anyone who's done this will know exactly what I mean!

Anyway, this aint about me, back to topic

[ShyTorque]

Also worth considering that not all PA28's have toe brakes fitted to the RHS! There are few AAIB reports where the man in the right overlooked this fact.

Yes, see post #3

[BackPacker]

What are the rules and regulations regarding letting him sit on the left hand side, whilst I fly as P1 on the right hand side?

So, to summarize, there are no specific rules that force the PIC to sit on the LHS. There may be specific rules in the POH ("solo from rear seat only" in a tandem seater for instance) but AFAIK that doesn't apply to the PA28.

Obviously you need to have access to all the instruments, levers and such for the flight required. In case of the PA28, you will probably want to give the pax a thorough briefing on switching fuel tanks, and maybe (re)starting the engine (if the starter is out of your reach). And it may not be the best of ideas for an IFR flight (which this isn't) unless all instruments are duplicated.

Furthermore, it's not a bad idea to get some experience flying (and landing) from the RHS. The picture is different, you've got to swap hands and such. Not particularly difficult, but you'll want to be careful the first few times.

Also, I've flown this very aircraft as P2 on the right hand side

There's no such thing as a P2 in a PA28 since it's a single pilot aircraft. The only way two people can log time simultaneously in a PA28 is the instructor/student or examiner/student scenario. Unless you were involved in operations which, per company SOP, required a two-man crew. Which is very, very unlikely in a PA28.

Does the owner allow it?
Does the insurer allow it?

Good point and it might be worth checking. I know some schools/clubs only allow you to fly PIC from the RHS after a specific checkout. Makes sense.

[SkyCamMK]

Viewfinder skills

Re Halfbakedboy and my comment on Viewfinder skills

Yes I know what you mean and so do I but then we probably have thousands of hours and are quite skilled at what we do.

I should have said leave the camera to him and just fly the aircraft

When doing this for myself I tend to keep the wingtip on the target but you can imagine how with both leaning left to see past a low wing etc?

Anyway I was only trying to help a newbie to aerial photo work because if he takes an interest in it he will be well rewarded.

Edit if you are using the little window you could just set up a mock approach to the target and fly smoothly at 80 with carb heat and 20 deg flap and then practise a go around to do another run.

[trex600]

You will also have to "hope" that you do not need to change fuel tanks while airborne

WHY?

[172driver]

Edit if you are using the little window you could just set up a mock approach to the target and fly smoothly at 80 with carb heat and 20 deg flap and then practise a go around to do another run.

Excellent advice - I've done just that for a friend a few years ago - works a treat

[robin]

You will also have to "hope" that you do not need to change fuel tanks while airborne

WHY?

I assume this is an innocent question, but try switching the tanks from the RH seat when the control is on the left wall behind the leg of the LH seat occupant.

[S-Works]

I do hope that none of these pictures have been or will be sold with a PPL at the controls.......

[maxred]

They may well have an AOC bose

[The Dead Side]

Thanks all for your responses.

You will also have to "hope" that you do not need to change fuel tanks while airborne

I'll brief the passenger on the fuel tank switcher, so that won't be a problem.

There's no such thing as a P2 in a PA28 since it's a single pilot aircraft. The only way two people can log time simultaneously in a PA28 is the instructor/student or examiner/student scenario. Unless you were involved in operations which, per company SOP, required a two-man crew. Which is very, very unlikely in a PA28.

Thanks for the correction.

I do hope that none of these pictures have been or will be sold with a PPL at the controls.......

I'm a PPL, and unless my friend plans on selling his photos to his mother then I very much doubt there will be a problem. I have to admit, I was waiting for someone to bring that up....

[trex600]

Gooneydog, Robin
I stand corrected, i had a Pa38 in mind for some reason

[Ryan5252]

I'll brief the passenger on the fuel tank switcher, so that won't be a problem.

It would be technically illegal to allow him to switch tanks though. Technically...

[jollyrog]

How do you propose to do the power checks, as per the POH?