PPL- Spin Training

[Pilot DAR]

The UK glider training tells us to treat Vne as a TAS value because of the flutter risks, which must be why I thought that was how it was as standard expressed

This is one of the sideline issues I have with training. Instructors, most likely because of reasoning pased 90% urban legend and 10% understanding, are sometimes training pilots with information which is not in harmony with certification methods, and thus the approved limitations for an aircraft (flight manual information). The result is lesser experienced pilots, doing things in aircarft which conflict with the "approved" procedures for that aircraft. When you challenge the pilot was to why he/she did it that way, they say "'cause I was trained to!". Good answer, but not always correct.

Those of us who write flight manuals, do so to comply with standards which are long established, and define and limit the aircraft in accordance with design and test results. It is frustrating to be reminded that after the effort of exactly wording a flight manual to conform to a standards, and convey exactly what the pilot needs to know about the plane, without unduly limiting that pilot, pilots go and limit themselves more, perhaps for the wrong reasons.

Pilot's training must have a large emphasis on the flight manual and reading and understanding it. This may mean that many instructors have to receive this training first!

Pilots, remind yourself, that you are responsible for understanding and correctly applying, the information in the flight manual for the aircraft you are flying. If in doubt, ask!

[Pace]

Gliders Do have power in the form of potential energy. A glider will tap into that energy in the descent as well as while conceding the energy from lift into level flight.
Hence the glider could exceed YNE in level flight or descent
Pace

[ProfChrisReed]

Gliders Do have power in the form of potential energy. A glider will tap into that energy in the descent as well as while conceding the energy from lift into level flight.
Hence the glider could exceed YNE in level flight or descent
Pace

And the greatest likelihood of this happening is delay in pulling out of the dive after a spin recovery.

Back on topic, hurrah!

[Pace]

I was flying a private jet over the alps coming out of Nice with severe turbulence forecast between FL 200 and Fl300 hitting the turbulence which was severe
I requested and immediate climb to Fl340.
Normally the Citation mid twenties is climbing at 1000 fpm.
I went from FL240 to FL320 at 3000 fpm.
Ie 2000 fpm from the air currents.

Convert that to level flight on a glider and you would easily break VNE in level flight who needs descent to do so ?
So back off topic again

Pace

[djpil]

In certifying an aircraft (one where Vne and Vdf are defined solely in terms of IAS) the engineers consider the performance of the airplane in determining the max TAS achievable. Freedom from flutter has to be shown throughout the flight envelope (plus a margin) - thats the speed-altitude envelope not just the V-n envelope.
As others have noted, you came come unstuck when adding more power so expanding the flight envelope with the resultant erosion of flutter margins.

One thing I like about FAR 23 airplanes is the confidence in the proof of freedom from flutter.

I know I was one of the first to drift away from spinning so, as some compensation: I also like the confidence with FAR 23 airplanes on spin recovery.

[mary meagher]

Somebody wiser than me has pointed out that gliders and power aircraft are really different animals, as well as the people flying them.

To put it briefly, I have been reminded to respect all the limitations all the time: they are there for a reason. As Pilot DAR says, understand and apply the information in the flight manual for the aircraft you are flying. Hopefully it won't be in French.....

[FlyingKiwi_73]

gliders don't usually have a nose full of lycomming... gotta have an impact on how things spin.

I did spin training in gliders, Instructor knew i was nervous about it, made me spin and not recover for at least 3-4 rotations. didn't make me feel better about doing it in the future... i used to make the canopy fog on entry.. breathing too hard :-)

[Pace]

Mary

First not sure we are talking about spinning Gliders/powered or flying gliders above VNE at FL300.
Firstly as a non Glider pilot I am surprised that they fly up at FL300! most I have seen are below cloud base ie 3000-5000 feet. a couple of times above over the Alps one being around 13000 feet.
Am amazed with the claims that some are up around FL300??? and braking VNE at TAS rather than IAS?
Having said all that I think gliding would suit me so maybe I should have a go?

Pace

[mad_jock]

What gay trainers you have on

And that Alt is illegal

[mad_jock]

Not 100% certain but the whole guage is illegal for fixed wing powered.

And you are let off with having gay trainers as you are also a hairy fecker like myself who fly's in shorts.

Though my prefered garb is shorts and a pair of flipflops and the wee window open to flick my ash out of.

[mary meagher]

The highest I ever got in a glider was 20,300 feet agl, over Aboyne on the River Dee, in Scotland. The height record there was set with Chris Rollings and Briony Hicks in a 2 seater, somewhere around 38,000 feet, I think. But the highest one of course was in the US, c. 48,000.

Tis said that he had oxygen, under pressure, but the veins in his legs squirmed like worms. And the FAA was none too pleased, as one doesn't always know when it is the perfect day, he hadn't authorised his special VFR above 18,500, as one was supposed to do. Don't know whether or not he was wearing shorts.

We in gliders do definitely enjoy looking down on airliners, but usually are talking to enroute controllers, or have a special window of space opened for us. One glider pilot of ancient fame used to soar his Auster (a primitive SEP, rather a shed, actually) up to 20,000 or so. The controller, when receiving his transmission, had to ask several times "What type aircraft did you say?!"

Pace, I'm sending you a private message.