china bought Continental
Indeed - even in 2008 when I joined Backpacker's club, I was told that within months we'd be receiving two new C172s with diesel engines. Needless to say these never materialised (and our normal Cessna fleet has shrunk from 5 to 3 in that time too!), and the club are even trying to get rid of the last two remaining diesels from the fleet. 
It's a great shame that the costs are so high, as our Diamond is a lovely aircraft, and with AVGAS selling for 2.70 a litre or so we need all the help on fuel that we can get.
It's a great shame that the costs are so high, as our Diamond is a lovely aircraft, and with AVGAS selling for 2.70 a litre or so we need all the help on fuel that we can get.
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The UK is now taxing diesel so the tax advantage of diesels has gone.
The scheme is self-declaring ... not sure how it works in practice. Training flights and business use are exempt, AFAIK. Anyway, this was wiped out the retrofit business case.
SMA had certification problems with high altitude restarts. I believe these have been solved at some altitude, but at what altitude? Socata have a TB20 with the SMA engine; had it for years. The vibration was apparently not solved.
The scheme is self-declaring ... not sure how it works in practice. Training flights and business use are exempt, AFAIK. Anyway, this was wiped out the retrofit business case.
SMA had certification problems with high altitude restarts. I believe these have been solved at some altitude, but at what altitude? Socata have a TB20 with the SMA engine; had it for years. The vibration was apparently not solved.
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If Packard and Guiberson could invent and sell successful diesel aero engines in the 1930's, there's no reason at all why a highly successful diesel aero engine couldn't become dominant today.
The problem is that "success" is measured by the effort a company puts into the product... and that not only includes good marketing, but sound engineering, and good parts and service.
The Packard diesel died because of the death of its chief proponent and engineer.. along with the onset of the Great Depression... and the Guiberson died because of a lack of marketing and engineering development.
Both of these engines could have easily been developed into winners, and either could have become a primary aero engine.
The Chinese manufacturing angle suffers from a host of problems. Not the least of which, the desire of the Chinese to go always go "cheap". Asians in general, work on quantity, not quality.
The rampant corruption, poor legal structures (it took Caterpillar nearly 6 YEARS to get a Chinese court to agree that there had been copyright/trademark infringement in the Perkins manufacturing case) and regular substitution of inferior parts, is something that the Chinese can't get away from.
The Chinese neither understand.. nor have any will to support... dealerships, and parts and service backup. They do not have a clue in these areas. Buy a Chinese manufactured product that requires parts and backup, and you're out on your own.
They only understand the concept of manufacturing a zillion items in one production run, and letting you, the customer, sort out the QC (or should I say, lack of it).
In addition, we have the major problem of the vast majority (possibly 99%) of the Chinese workforce with poor education, poor English skills, and poor understanding of Western objectives in a high quality manufacturing environment.
We're talking about workers who can't even understand basic English, and we're talking about them producing and assembling highly-critical, high-tech, aircraft engine components?
The previous poster who mentioned that the executives of Continental see only the short-term... while the Chinese have the long-term in mind, was absolutely spot-on.
The aim of the Chinese is to extract as much technology from the West, as easily as possible, and for as little cost as possible... and in this case, they are ably assisted by stupid, short-sighted Western corporate executives.
The manufacturing facilities for Continental engines in the U.S. will be slated by the Chinese, in the near-future, for dismantling and sell-off... and all manufacturing will then be re-located to China... and good luck to you all then, as YOU, the pilot, then becomes the test-bed and QC control, for "Made In China" aircraft components...
The problem is that "success" is measured by the effort a company puts into the product... and that not only includes good marketing, but sound engineering, and good parts and service.
The Packard diesel died because of the death of its chief proponent and engineer.. along with the onset of the Great Depression... and the Guiberson died because of a lack of marketing and engineering development.
Both of these engines could have easily been developed into winners, and either could have become a primary aero engine.
The Chinese manufacturing angle suffers from a host of problems. Not the least of which, the desire of the Chinese to go always go "cheap". Asians in general, work on quantity, not quality.
The rampant corruption, poor legal structures (it took Caterpillar nearly 6 YEARS to get a Chinese court to agree that there had been copyright/trademark infringement in the Perkins manufacturing case) and regular substitution of inferior parts, is something that the Chinese can't get away from.
The Chinese neither understand.. nor have any will to support... dealerships, and parts and service backup. They do not have a clue in these areas. Buy a Chinese manufactured product that requires parts and backup, and you're out on your own.
They only understand the concept of manufacturing a zillion items in one production run, and letting you, the customer, sort out the QC (or should I say, lack of it).
In addition, we have the major problem of the vast majority (possibly 99%) of the Chinese workforce with poor education, poor English skills, and poor understanding of Western objectives in a high quality manufacturing environment.
We're talking about workers who can't even understand basic English, and we're talking about them producing and assembling highly-critical, high-tech, aircraft engine components?
The previous poster who mentioned that the executives of Continental see only the short-term... while the Chinese have the long-term in mind, was absolutely spot-on.
The aim of the Chinese is to extract as much technology from the West, as easily as possible, and for as little cost as possible... and in this case, they are ably assisted by stupid, short-sighted Western corporate executives.
The manufacturing facilities for Continental engines in the U.S. will be slated by the Chinese, in the near-future, for dismantling and sell-off... and all manufacturing will then be re-located to China... and good luck to you all then, as YOU, the pilot, then becomes the test-bed and QC control, for "Made In China" aircraft components...
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the desire of the Chinese to go always go "cheap". Asians in general, work on quantity, not quality.
The reason why most Chinese stuff is crap is because Western customers tell them to make stuff down to a ridiculously low price (how many £1 T-shirts does one really need to buy??) and the customer accepts the crap quality.
It is people in the West who are the idiots. Walk down the High Street and watch people; their shopping bags stuffed with cheap crap clothes which will last a few weeks and then go in a landfill and then they go out and engage in more retail therapy, because their uneducated lives are so dreary that all they can do is eat MacDonalds, watch Eastenders, and spend their weekends shopping for cheap crap clothes.
The retailers here are only too happy to fulfil this need.
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The SMA diesel is not a particularly complex unit. It even fits more easily into existing airframes due to the similar configuration of the engines it is likely to replace.
I read of the purchase of the design by Continental with some interest - given that they had recently had Mark Wilksch working for them - but apparently he no longer does (and has not for quite a while).
But the SMA 'engine' - which IIRC was a 'firewall forward' kit started at €80,000 - which strangely enough was something of a barrier to its widespread take up.
So if Continental can make its cost a lot more 'sensible' it should sell. Whether the Chinese aspect of that will have much impact I guess we'll have to wait and see.
I read of the purchase of the design by Continental with some interest - given that they had recently had Mark Wilksch working for them - but apparently he no longer does (and has not for quite a while).
But the SMA 'engine' - which IIRC was a 'firewall forward' kit started at €80,000 - which strangely enough was something of a barrier to its widespread take up.
So if Continental can make its cost a lot more 'sensible' it should sell. Whether the Chinese aspect of that will have much impact I guess we'll have to wait and see.
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Don't forget that the € 80K includes a new prop, cowling, relocated landing light and throttle quadrant. Those are not included @ TBO.
The new SMA is certified to 20 000'.
Check out their renewed website.
The new SMA is certified to 20 000'.
Check out their renewed website.
The UK is now taxing diesel so the tax advantage of diesels has gone.
The red diesel is actually kinder to the injection pump (better lubricity), but the assumption is that Jet A is more readily available at airfields from a quality controlled source (not the rusty old tank of red diesel that the grass cutting tractor uses).
Until Jet A or A1 starts to be sold at the same sort of price as 100LL,there will stll be a considerable saving to be made in fuel cost on an aircraft diesel engine.
Until Jet A or A1 starts to be sold at the same sort of price as 100LL,there will stll be a considerable saving to be made in fuel cost on an aircraft diesel engine.
The telling statistic would be the average worldwide cost of avgas + tax actually being paid per gallon, by the market who is buying it and the engines that burn it.
Silvaire1, you are on one end of the spectrum. On the other end are whole countries like Russia, where all 100LL is imported and costs 2-3 times the cost of avtur.
The business case for Jet-A burning piston engines depends on the expansion of the GA market volume in those areas, and the ongoing stability of that pricing structure. That's a different thing than selling to a stable, existing market, for which I think there is no business case.
What if the motivation for that pricing structure is anti-GA taxation versus anti-avgas? Is GA actually going to expand in those areas if the fuel needed is available? I think those are the questions that you'd need to answer, and money-men get very nervous when politics determine their success
USA is unique case where fuel costs almost the same as fresh air, GA is much more developed there, but you simply cannot compare it to Europe. Here in EASA land, especially Eastern Europe, it's hard to get hands on 100LL and if you do find an airport with 100LL, prices go through the roof 
It's probably hard to understand, but in Eastern Europe you can go 300 NM between two airfields which have 100LL - and most of them are short grass strips owned by local clubs, often in very poor condition. And of course many Cirrus/Seneca/Seminole/etc. aren't really excited to land there just to refuel, not to mention all the trouble with Customs
It's probably hard to understand, but in Eastern Europe you can go 300 NM between two airfields which have 100LL - and most of them are short grass strips owned by local clubs, often in very poor condition. And of course many Cirrus/Seneca/Seminole/etc. aren't really excited to land there just to refuel, not to mention all the trouble with Customs
I came from Eutope originally and have spent a lot of time there over the last 10 years. I think the issue is that the the aero-engine market (and potential market) is a world market, not an extension of the small, stable, highly taxed European market.
Rotax has done well in the world market for small engines, focusing on auto fuel. Whatever happened to Continrntal's tie-in with Honda?
Ciao
Rotax has done well in the world market for small engines, focusing on auto fuel. Whatever happened to Continrntal's tie-in with Honda?
Ciao
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Anybody bringing out an affordable alternative
to avgas-burners will do business in Europe. Apart from Rotax,
Thielert did very well (saleswise). SMA isn't doing bad either when you
take into account the single STC (C182) and their strange dislike for publicity.
The problem is the damn avgas. Not only the price but
also the availability. It's a boutique fuel starting to look like
Kryptonite...
to avgas-burners will do business in Europe. Apart from Rotax,
Thielert did very well (saleswise). SMA isn't doing bad either when you
take into account the single STC (C182) and their strange dislike for publicity.
The problem is the damn avgas. Not only the price but
also the availability. It's a boutique fuel starting to look like
Kryptonite...
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At the risk of repeating an earlier discussion; there are a number of excellent diesel engines out there based on successful German WWII designs.
See: Gemini Engine
and: zoche aero-diesels homepage
Sadly the available money was wasted on developing Thielert car type engines, when dedicated aircraft powerplants like above would have so much more potential.
See: Gemini Engine
and: zoche aero-diesels homepage
Sadly the available money was wasted on developing Thielert car type engines, when dedicated aircraft powerplants like above would have so much more potential.
I think the Junkers style engines are really cool, and I'm aware of another similar development that was done some years ago. The organization is that case eventually went with Thielert to limit development costs.
The Honda/Continental press release from 2003 is still on the TCM website. Honda would have the kind of budget to do a mogas engine, making a high risk bet on the market.
Teledyne Continental Motors ||Bulletins & Manuals||
With support in the development process based on TCM's aviation expertise and know-how, Honda has developed a prototype piston aviation engine that has achieved the technical potential for being significantly advanced over currently available engines in terms of weight, fuel efficiency, power output and emissions.
(I'm trying to limit my contribution to thread drift to some degree!)
The Honda/Continental press release from 2003 is still on the TCM website. Honda would have the kind of budget to do a mogas engine, making a high risk bet on the market.
Teledyne Continental Motors ||Bulletins & Manuals||
With support in the development process based on TCM's aviation expertise and know-how, Honda has developed a prototype piston aviation engine that has achieved the technical potential for being significantly advanced over currently available engines in terms of weight, fuel efficiency, power output and emissions.
(I'm trying to limit my contribution to thread drift to some degree!)
