china bought Continental
Re the inverter at the watermill I was thinking much the same as IO540, having some experience and insight in electronics. But I knew I could count on him to word it better than I ever could.
As for the sale of the engine makers: yes the Chinese have vast amounts of money to invest, and seem to be wiser at it than certain petroleum sheiks. From AvWeb discussion I understand that in this particular case the owner was particularly happy to sell, the company/product being neither very profitable nor a good fit to their other businesses.
And I also believe Lycoming and Continental would stand stronger today if they had invested in product innovation. OTOH I think they must have done some of their marketing homework, and probably found the market/demand too small to justify major investment. Those companies that DID bring state of the art engines for G/A did not really make brilliant successes, after all.
As for the sale of the engine makers: yes the Chinese have vast amounts of money to invest, and seem to be wiser at it than certain petroleum sheiks. From AvWeb discussion I understand that in this particular case the owner was particularly happy to sell, the company/product being neither very profitable nor a good fit to their other businesses.
And I also believe Lycoming and Continental would stand stronger today if they had invested in product innovation. OTOH I think they must have done some of their marketing homework, and probably found the market/demand too small to justify major investment. Those companies that DID bring state of the art engines for G/A did not really make brilliant successes, after all.
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VT1 - there is also a lot of this technology on the German market, designed for PV panel input and for feeding the (surplus) electricity into the mains.
Why German? Because over there they are paying people silly money, like 50p/kWh, for stuff they stuff back up the mains.
I know a former TB20 owner whose house is full of this stuff
Why German? Because over there they are paying people silly money, like 50p/kWh, for stuff they stuff back up the mains.
I know a former TB20 owner whose house is full of this stuff
I'm thinking there will be little impact to Continental's operations except more money for R&D. That is not an endorsement, it's just that I think the Chinese think in decades, not years, and they don't like to make obvious waves. They paid what on their scale is chump change, they will learn what they can, and eventually by this and other means they will have developed a light aircraft capability in China, selling to the world market. The long term effect will be the marginalization of industry in the democratic west and advancement of their own... But I don't think they'll want to outwardly present that agenda in their short term ownership of Continental.
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Steed:
Strange that. I'd pay the extra £25 to get the ones with no tick. And I wouldn't buy the ticked ones at any price.
NS
we (in the West) would rather pay £50 for a pair of Nike trainers than pay £25 for the exact same trainers without a tick down the side
NS
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It's simply incomprehensible how any of the aviation engine manufacturers companies can lose money. They're selling old rope. What R&D costs? What developing costs? They're peddling WWII engines for $50.000 a pop. I'd like some of that action, thank you.
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There is much less new business today than say 30 years ago.
Just been reading the US AOPA mag...
Back then they were working three shifts, 24/7, doing new engines. Today, much or most of their business is overhauls.
But I bet they still have the same size factory and the same admin staff i.e. similar fixed costs. Downsizing is very hard, especially as you can't just kick out just the least competent people. And anyway anybody with a brain will jump ship before (as they see it) it sinks totally.
And there is a deep recession in GA right now.
Just been reading the US AOPA mag...
Back then they were working three shifts, 24/7, doing new engines. Today, much or most of their business is overhauls.
But I bet they still have the same size factory and the same admin staff i.e. similar fixed costs. Downsizing is very hard, especially as you can't just kick out just the least competent people. And anyway anybody with a brain will jump ship before (as they see it) it sinks totally.
And there is a deep recession in GA right now.
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Those were the days when, urban legend has it, a manufacturing city in Japan named Usa was established, so that its wares could be stamped "made in USA." My racist prep-school history teacher, in the mid-1950s, taught us this as Truth.
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stepwilk, I am not sure about Japan, but there is a wonderful short story by Eduardo Galeano, an Uruguayan writer:
Originally Posted by (c) Eduardo Galeano
Alienation
Back in my salad days, I was a bank clerk.
Among the customers, I recall a shirt manufacturer. The manager of the bank would renew his loans purely out of pity. The poor shirtmaker was constantly on the brink of bankruptcy. His shirts were not bad, but no-one bought them.
One night, the shirtmaker was visited by an angel. When he woke that morning he had seen the light. He sprang out of bed.
The first thing he did was to change the name of his enterprise to Uruguay Sociedad Anónima ('Uruguay Company Limited'), a patriotic name whose initials are: USA. The second thing he did was to sew labels onto the collars of his shirts that said, with complete honesty: Made in USA. The third thing he did was to sell shirts like hotcakes. And the fourth was to pay off his debts and make tons of money.
Back in my salad days, I was a bank clerk.
Among the customers, I recall a shirt manufacturer. The manager of the bank would renew his loans purely out of pity. The poor shirtmaker was constantly on the brink of bankruptcy. His shirts were not bad, but no-one bought them.
One night, the shirtmaker was visited by an angel. When he woke that morning he had seen the light. He sprang out of bed.
The first thing he did was to change the name of his enterprise to Uruguay Sociedad Anónima ('Uruguay Company Limited'), a patriotic name whose initials are: USA. The second thing he did was to sew labels onto the collars of his shirts that said, with complete honesty: Made in USA. The third thing he did was to sell shirts like hotcakes. And the fourth was to pay off his debts and make tons of money.
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Strange that. I'd pay the extra £25 to get the ones with no tick. And I wouldn't buy the ticked ones at any price.
My two pence worth.... (all my opinion - not fact)
China would like to grow a GA industry, and will not afford to buy our aeronautical products in large numbers, when they know they can make their own at a lower cost.
China has an adequate infrastructure for jets (jet fuel at airports), but not Avgas, and China realizes that Avgas is a dying product, which is expensive and complex to make and distribute - They don't want to be in that business, and certainly won't buy our Avgas. So they don't want many Avgas engines for themselves.
What China does want is diesel techology, and Continental has it, as a result of a deal with SMA earlier in the year. With diesel, they can make GA aircraft for Chinese use, and those aircraft can easily operate within the existing infrastructure - jet fuel.
So, China is happy to make Avgas Continental engines in the US, for the existing market. China is eager to make diesel engines in the US, because some of us want them, and we'll bear the costs of development, and installation development on existing types. (I'll buy the first one certified - either the new SMA, or the new Continental, which ever comes first, I have a C182 waiting, firewall bare). We will operate these new engines enought to "get the bugs out" for them, because we have the experience to know how. China will then mirror the diesel production in China for their market, and they'll be flying for a quarter of the cost we are. In 30 years, China will be the place to go to get your license.
In the mean time, we really won't see much difference in our industry, unless we look into China...
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What China does want is diesel techology, and Continental has it, as a result of a deal with SMA earlier in the year.
Might not be powerful enough for a C182 though, but the 2.0 performs quite well in front of a C172, PA28, DA40 or DR400.
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I like the Thielert,, though only have an hour of flying the diesel DA 42.
I think that Contiental would be more attractive, as it has a broader, and more marketable product range right now, and a much longer legacy of success. It is already sustaining itself, with lots of happy customers, and brand new aircraft demand for their engines. Thielert appears to me to have the opposite of demand by new airframe makers (as I participarted in the STC replacement of the Thielerts with Lycomings in the DA 42).
I'm sure the Chinese have though this through for the long term.
I think that Contiental would be more attractive, as it has a broader, and more marketable product range right now, and a much longer legacy of success. It is already sustaining itself, with lots of happy customers, and brand new aircraft demand for their engines. Thielert appears to me to have the opposite of demand by new airframe makers (as I participarted in the STC replacement of the Thielerts with Lycomings in the DA 42).
I'm sure the Chinese have though this through for the long term.
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Last year I visited Chinese tractor factories. Some are producing rubbish, some are making larger Western style units using state of the art machine tools. The large products are still iffy mainly because of bought-in items such as oil seals and their spares support is still rubbish.
I am convinced however that all these problems will be very rapidly sorted and in a few years the western tractor factories will be history.
And the EU will still be mandating 12 month paternity leave and bread & circuses in general.
Third world here we come (hopefully not in my lifetime but I'm 62). The future is in the Far East.
I am convinced however that all these problems will be very rapidly sorted and in a few years the western tractor factories will be history.
And the EU will still be mandating 12 month paternity leave and bread & circuses in general.
Third world here we come (hopefully not in my lifetime but I'm 62). The future is in the Far East.
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It's simply incomprehensible how any of the aviation engine manufacturers companies can lose money. They're selling old rope. What R&D costs? What developing costs? They're peddling WWII engines for $50.000 a pop.
My new IO390 has roller tappets, counterbalanced crankshaft etc. It is exactly the same shape as my old engine so it fits without any modifications.
With a new (uncertifed) 180 HP Lycoming for around $24,000 and a 100HP Rotax for £14,000 there isn't much of a price difference and the litres per hour per HP are about the same.
I suspect the weight/HP is similar if you include the radiator, coolant and oil tank.
I do think the Lycoming flat four is criticised unfairly. It is very strong, doesn't need a gearbox, and has a huge bearing to support the prop.
My desire would be for Lycoming to work on allowing more of their engines to work on Mogas. Perhaps by retarding the ignition on some of their higher compression engines.
Regarding the Chinese ownership. I expect that more and more parts will be made in China and just assembled or final badged in the US. This is OK as long as some one is keeping an eye on the quality. My concern is whether the new management will have the same attitude to quality as the previous managment.
Most Japanese electronic goods are made in China but they apply their quality standards so you would never know.
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Thirty years ago the British motorcycle industry was in the sort of state that the aircraft engine industry is in now, it was the same story, lack of investment and no interest in new product development.
Fortunatly a guy with a lot of money got hold of the Triumph brand and turned it around, it has taken twenty years of personal investment to get the bikes to the state were they sell on merit.............. not the name.
I have no doubt that if anyone tried to sorce investment for a long term project like Triumph from the banks you would not get in the door, all they want is short term profit.
The reason that the UK and USA can't make it in the major industrial sector is not that we don't have the will, ability, or work ethic it is because the shiny arses in the banks are only intersted in next weeks bonus, not a pay back that might be twenty years off.
Fortunatly a guy with a lot of money got hold of the Triumph brand and turned it around, it has taken twenty years of personal investment to get the bikes to the state were they sell on merit.............. not the name.
I have no doubt that if anyone tried to sorce investment for a long term project like Triumph from the banks you would not get in the door, all they want is short term profit.
The reason that the UK and USA can't make it in the major industrial sector is not that we don't have the will, ability, or work ethic it is because the shiny arses in the banks are only intersted in next weeks bonus, not a pay back that might be twenty years off.
Concerning Chinese manufacturing quality, it's clear that you get what you pay for (and if of course, you QC the product). I do all my PPRuNeing on a Macbook Pro and an iPhone. They are made in China and the build quality and reliability is superb, as you would expect when the buyer is Apple.
On the other hand, I have read from a seemingly knowledgeable source that there are instances where Chinese suppliers of high-quality electronic parts for US companies, build shadow factories that produce the same branded parts and sell them for their own account.
Getting back to Continental, I suspect the discussions about the Chinese interest in diesel technology may be correct. On the other hand, maybe Plan B is to close the plant after a few years due to "continuing losses" and sell the parts and equipment to a scrap company who then coincidentally finds a willing buyer in China.
On the other hand, I have read from a seemingly knowledgeable source that there are instances where Chinese suppliers of high-quality electronic parts for US companies, build shadow factories that produce the same branded parts and sell them for their own account.
Getting back to Continental, I suspect the discussions about the Chinese interest in diesel technology may be correct. On the other hand, maybe Plan B is to close the plant after a few years due to "continuing losses" and sell the parts and equipment to a scrap company who then coincidentally finds a willing buyer in China.
John Bloor did a exemplary job with Triumph but I think the analogy with Continental and Lycoming isn't strong. In the case of the British motorcycle industry what they were making 40 years ago was non-engineered crap. The competition killed them with better function. Conversely modern aircraft engines are well engineered and work well, as pointed out by ZA, and they are not being put out of business by more technically advanced competition.
I agree that fuel and controls are the issues right now. I'm not a big fan of diesels but if anybody can produce a diesel that is practical with good 50 year life cycle cost, I'd say it would be Continental using the SMA design.
I agree that fuel and controls are the issues right now. I'm not a big fan of diesels but if anybody can produce a diesel that is practical with good 50 year life cycle cost, I'd say it would be Continental using the SMA design.
I own a share in a Nanchang CJ6A. The sheetmetal work is absolutely outstanding with beautiful skin butt joins not a wave in any of the flat areas and perfect riveting. The mechanicals are copies of Russian designs (ie simple, but heavy and crude) again executed to a higher standard.
There is no doubt in my mind that Chinese produced Continental parts will be of equal or probably higher quality than the US sourced parts currently used,
which considering all the recent QA disasters involving US made engine components is not setting the bar very high.
IMO one of the major causes of the decline of GA, at least in Canada is the cost of certified engines. The cost of an engine overhaul for a simple entry level GA aircraft is often more than the total value of the aircraft and even if the engine has time left to overhaul the cost of parts can be crushing, and it is getting worse. For a while there were several aftermarket cylinder assemblies available. As a result cylinder prices fell by 50 % but now most have been forced out of business and cylinder prices are on there way back up.
If the takeover of Continental results in lower engine prices than I think this going to be a very positive development and if I was an exec at Lycoming I would be polishing my resume....
There is no doubt in my mind that Chinese produced Continental parts will be of equal or probably higher quality than the US sourced parts currently used,
which considering all the recent QA disasters involving US made engine components is not setting the bar very high.
IMO one of the major causes of the decline of GA, at least in Canada is the cost of certified engines. The cost of an engine overhaul for a simple entry level GA aircraft is often more than the total value of the aircraft and even if the engine has time left to overhaul the cost of parts can be crushing, and it is getting worse. For a while there were several aftermarket cylinder assemblies available. As a result cylinder prices fell by 50 % but now most have been forced out of business and cylinder prices are on there way back up.
If the takeover of Continental results in lower engine prices than I think this going to be a very positive development and if I was an exec at Lycoming I would be polishing my resume....
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What well engineered are we talking about?
The fact that Continental is offering a carburetor O-200 for the new Skycatcher 162 should forever disqualify them from being in that bracket - which car manufacturer has carburetted engines in this day and age? A company willing to appear on or at the very forefront of development would have yanked that offering 15 years ago... It's a joke.
I understand the reliability issues with well proven aviation engines. So did everyone else in Detroit 60 years ago when they knew the longevity and reliability of an engine is down to low compression output from huge displacement. It's really not rocket science. That doesn't mean we should have to tolerate carburetor, carb ice rings and old school magnetos (that break time and time again) when there are clearly both proven and reliable alternatives. Just call Bosch up and they'll be able to send you not only electronic ignition and injection, but even fadec.
The fact that Continental is offering a carburetor O-200 for the new Skycatcher 162 should forever disqualify them from being in that bracket - which car manufacturer has carburetted engines in this day and age? A company willing to appear on or at the very forefront of development would have yanked that offering 15 years ago... It's a joke.
I understand the reliability issues with well proven aviation engines. So did everyone else in Detroit 60 years ago when they knew the longevity and reliability of an engine is down to low compression output from huge displacement. It's really not rocket science. That doesn't mean we should have to tolerate carburetor, carb ice rings and old school magnetos (that break time and time again) when there are clearly both proven and reliable alternatives. Just call Bosch up and they'll be able to send you not only electronic ignition and injection, but even fadec.