Navigation - big problems, need HELP!
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Navigation - big problems, need HELP!
Hello to everybody, I'm new to posting on the board,although I have been visiting it for a while.
PLEASE can somebody give me some advice/help, because I'm on the verge of giving up ever getting my PPL otherwise.
I've developed bad problems with DR navigation, which have already necessitated in my taking my cross country qualifyer twice already, and getting told to do it again. (I'm the only person I know who has failed at the second attempt, I know some who failed first time, but were ok the next time round, but I'm not one of them).
I just keep getting lost, (even though my pre cross country navs were ok). I've 'developed' a problem where I just can't seem to 'line up' the map and the ground. I've heard some people take a GPS with them on the QCX, but I don't want to do this UNTIL I sort this problem out.
I've read and re-read the Trevor Thom navigation manual, and try to follow his advice, but it's going pear shaped in the aircraft.
Should I give up, and accept I'm never going to crack it, or does anyone know of any other book / have any advice, etc.. on what I can do?
Sorry about the long winded post, but I'm desparate for ANY help.
Thanks a lot
bmus
PLEASE can somebody give me some advice/help, because I'm on the verge of giving up ever getting my PPL otherwise.
I've developed bad problems with DR navigation, which have already necessitated in my taking my cross country qualifyer twice already, and getting told to do it again. (I'm the only person I know who has failed at the second attempt, I know some who failed first time, but were ok the next time round, but I'm not one of them).
I just keep getting lost, (even though my pre cross country navs were ok). I've 'developed' a problem where I just can't seem to 'line up' the map and the ground. I've heard some people take a GPS with them on the QCX, but I don't want to do this UNTIL I sort this problem out.
I've read and re-read the Trevor Thom navigation manual, and try to follow his advice, but it's going pear shaped in the aircraft.
Should I give up, and accept I'm never going to crack it, or does anyone know of any other book / have any advice, etc.. on what I can do?
Sorry about the long winded post, but I'm desparate for ANY help.
Thanks a lot
bmus
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A bit difficult to help without knowing where you are going wrong, but I will give you my tips of where most people go wrong.
You say you can't seem to line up the map and the ground, are you orientating the map so that your line on the map lines up with the fore/aft axis of the aircraft? If you are NOT doing this then try it, it should help a lot, but I will be surprised if you have not been taught to do this.
Don't OVER navigate, you should have some sort of system with a nav checkpoint every 6-10 mins, check you are where you should be at each of these, make any adjustments to heading/eta for next checkpoint, note when your next checkpoint is, then PUT THE MAP AWAY until about 2 mins before you reach the next checkpoint, then get the map and look what your next point is, then LOOK for that feature, this sounds obvious, but many people then keep looking at the map instead of the ground and miss the feature they are looking for because they have their head inside, having looked at the map you KNOW what you are looking for , having SEEN it, you can THEN, glance again at the map to confirm you have the correct feature, but you should not need to look at the map again until you are aproaching your next point.
Hope this helps. <img src="cool.gif" border="0">
You say you can't seem to line up the map and the ground, are you orientating the map so that your line on the map lines up with the fore/aft axis of the aircraft? If you are NOT doing this then try it, it should help a lot, but I will be surprised if you have not been taught to do this.
Don't OVER navigate, you should have some sort of system with a nav checkpoint every 6-10 mins, check you are where you should be at each of these, make any adjustments to heading/eta for next checkpoint, note when your next checkpoint is, then PUT THE MAP AWAY until about 2 mins before you reach the next checkpoint, then get the map and look what your next point is, then LOOK for that feature, this sounds obvious, but many people then keep looking at the map instead of the ground and miss the feature they are looking for because they have their head inside, having looked at the map you KNOW what you are looking for , having SEEN it, you can THEN, glance again at the map to confirm you have the correct feature, but you should not need to look at the map again until you are aproaching your next point.
Hope this helps. <img src="cool.gif" border="0">
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Don`t give up.Try and use 3 different features to positively identify your turning point/on-route way point.For example ,if one of your points is a small town/village,try and identify 3 unique features,like a railway line or major road or ground feature that can be identified from the air,as one small town looks pretty much the same from the air.
Speak to your Instructor and see whether you cannot sort out some little Nav exercises before going off on the big one again.
You could post this question on the Instructors forum,there`s loads of experience there and I am sure they would help.
Speak to your Instructor and see whether you cannot sort out some little Nav exercises before going off on the big one again.
You could post this question on the Instructors forum,there`s loads of experience there and I am sure they would help.
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You used to be able to do it, so you can do it again. It's quite common to have a mental block over something - nav was fine for me, but flaring at the right time was always a problem. One day it just came to me and it's been ok ever since, and I'm sure the same will happen to you.
You're quite correct not to use a GPS - while they are IMHO the greatest thing since sliced bread, you need to be able to survive without it for when the batteries die or it loses the signal.
In navigation, planning is all. My instructor (hello DB6) used to swear by the 5 P's rule - proper planning prevents poor performance - and he's absolutely right. Make sure you have all the info to hand and easily accesible in flight, draw a wind arrow on the map to help you visualise the wind, draw drift lines at 10 degrees off track to allow you to calculate the drift and correction. Remember the 1 in 60 rule. Stick to your timings and update your estimate at approx halfway. Work out a landmark for your halfway point, and if it's easier to take the halfway point at 4 or 6 minutes in a 10 minute leg then do that - it'll make your revised estimate more accurate. If your aircraft has VOR's, work out the radials for a fix for each waypoint, then all you have to do is dial it up on the VOR at the appropriate point to check. It's easier than working it out in the air - basically anything that reduces your workload in the cockpit will make it easier for you to spot the features and navigate.
Try to find three attributes to identify a ground feature. The higher you are the easier it is to do this. If it's a town, then you might look for a lake to the east, a railway line running North - South and a motorway - something along those lines. Try and pick features that are unique in the area - if you're flying around the midlands for example spotting towns is tricky cos they all look the same, so try spotting rivers and motorways. Don't be afraid to use QDM's, and get a fix on 121.5 sooner rather than later if you're in trouble.
It might be worth taking a flight with someone else flying, and you just concentrating on the nav - even a PPL holder from the club or whatever. If you're in Scotland you're welcome to come with me sometime (bring your own map & sickbag).
Above all - don't give up. It'll seem all the more satisfying when you do pass.
[ 04 January 2002: Message edited by: Chocks Wahay ]</p>
You're quite correct not to use a GPS - while they are IMHO the greatest thing since sliced bread, you need to be able to survive without it for when the batteries die or it loses the signal.
In navigation, planning is all. My instructor (hello DB6) used to swear by the 5 P's rule - proper planning prevents poor performance - and he's absolutely right. Make sure you have all the info to hand and easily accesible in flight, draw a wind arrow on the map to help you visualise the wind, draw drift lines at 10 degrees off track to allow you to calculate the drift and correction. Remember the 1 in 60 rule. Stick to your timings and update your estimate at approx halfway. Work out a landmark for your halfway point, and if it's easier to take the halfway point at 4 or 6 minutes in a 10 minute leg then do that - it'll make your revised estimate more accurate. If your aircraft has VOR's, work out the radials for a fix for each waypoint, then all you have to do is dial it up on the VOR at the appropriate point to check. It's easier than working it out in the air - basically anything that reduces your workload in the cockpit will make it easier for you to spot the features and navigate.
Try to find three attributes to identify a ground feature. The higher you are the easier it is to do this. If it's a town, then you might look for a lake to the east, a railway line running North - South and a motorway - something along those lines. Try and pick features that are unique in the area - if you're flying around the midlands for example spotting towns is tricky cos they all look the same, so try spotting rivers and motorways. Don't be afraid to use QDM's, and get a fix on 121.5 sooner rather than later if you're in trouble.
It might be worth taking a flight with someone else flying, and you just concentrating on the nav - even a PPL holder from the club or whatever. If you're in Scotland you're welcome to come with me sometime (bring your own map & sickbag).
Above all - don't give up. It'll seem all the more satisfying when you do pass.
[ 04 January 2002: Message edited by: Chocks Wahay ]</p>
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The thought of getting lost in aeroplane is scary and one that I think leads people to having problems with nav. I'll guess that you are spending as much time worrying about getting lost than actually navigating and flying. The most important thing I learnt for my PPL is that preparation on the ground is far more important than having to do it in the air. I'll tell you what I do, hope it's of some help.
1) Before I go flying, before I even leave the house, I decide on my route. Then, in the comfort of home I sort out my map and fill in what I can on my flight log as regards headings, speeds + frequencies etc. Be happy about where you are going and anything you may encounter along the way. Look out for obvious landmarks and any nav aids that may well be useful. If you find some, work out how you will use them to aid your navigation.
2) When deciding on waypoints, pick things that are obvious. Don't use a road that you are flying at 90 degrees to as a marker. You could hit the road but be 10 miles off track. Find a bridge along the road, an intersection or a town village nearby. Look for identifiers such as lakes or high ground you may see. If you are struggling at first, use as many waypoints as you want. My FI used to recommend initailly about 15nm between each point.
3) Be happy you have everything you need before you set off to the airfield. Leave in plenty of time so you can complete your planning and relax before your flight. Rushing gets you nowhere. In fact it breeds mistakes.
4) When you arrive at the field check the r/w in use. Get the met brief and check for NOTAMS along you chosen route. If you are unsure, ASK! That's what instructors are paid for.
5) Calmly then sit down and complete your planning. Do it twice if needs be to make absolutely sure that everything is correct. Once it's done and you are happy chill out for twenty minutes or so.
6) Once you get out to do your pre-flight, if there is anything at all you are not happy with then bin the flight. It's better when you are concentrating on nav not to have to fiddle with dodgy squelch buttons or faulty transponders. Make sure your radios, VOR's etc. are tuned in correctly before departure.
7) Before you take off, be sure of how you are departing the field in terms of heights, headings etc. Note what your first waypoint is and how long it should take to get there. I would advise you choose something you are familiar with for your first waypoint so you cannot miss it. At Kissimmee I used to use Disney World, you could hit it every time.
8) Once you are in the cruise, remember your FREDA checks and just relax. Be confident in your calculations (which should be checked by an FI before TO) and fly your plan. If you approach the qual x/c thinking you will fail it, you most probably will. If your instructor didn't think you were ready, they wouldn't have sent you twice.
Finally, don't give up. When you get your PPL, and you will, you will sit back and wonder what all the worry was about.
Good luck.
PS I'll just add, if people at your club are going on lessons and you are hanging around doing nothing, ask them, in the nicest way possible, if they would mind you jumping in the back seat with a map. You can sit there quietly and just look and learn to relate the map to the ground and vice versa. Plenty of people were doing it when I did my PPL (obviously not when the student was solo) and it helped a great deal.
[ 07 January 2002: Message edited by: bow5 ]</p>
1) Before I go flying, before I even leave the house, I decide on my route. Then, in the comfort of home I sort out my map and fill in what I can on my flight log as regards headings, speeds + frequencies etc. Be happy about where you are going and anything you may encounter along the way. Look out for obvious landmarks and any nav aids that may well be useful. If you find some, work out how you will use them to aid your navigation.
2) When deciding on waypoints, pick things that are obvious. Don't use a road that you are flying at 90 degrees to as a marker. You could hit the road but be 10 miles off track. Find a bridge along the road, an intersection or a town village nearby. Look for identifiers such as lakes or high ground you may see. If you are struggling at first, use as many waypoints as you want. My FI used to recommend initailly about 15nm between each point.
3) Be happy you have everything you need before you set off to the airfield. Leave in plenty of time so you can complete your planning and relax before your flight. Rushing gets you nowhere. In fact it breeds mistakes.
4) When you arrive at the field check the r/w in use. Get the met brief and check for NOTAMS along you chosen route. If you are unsure, ASK! That's what instructors are paid for.
5) Calmly then sit down and complete your planning. Do it twice if needs be to make absolutely sure that everything is correct. Once it's done and you are happy chill out for twenty minutes or so.
6) Once you get out to do your pre-flight, if there is anything at all you are not happy with then bin the flight. It's better when you are concentrating on nav not to have to fiddle with dodgy squelch buttons or faulty transponders. Make sure your radios, VOR's etc. are tuned in correctly before departure.
7) Before you take off, be sure of how you are departing the field in terms of heights, headings etc. Note what your first waypoint is and how long it should take to get there. I would advise you choose something you are familiar with for your first waypoint so you cannot miss it. At Kissimmee I used to use Disney World, you could hit it every time.
8) Once you are in the cruise, remember your FREDA checks and just relax. Be confident in your calculations (which should be checked by an FI before TO) and fly your plan. If you approach the qual x/c thinking you will fail it, you most probably will. If your instructor didn't think you were ready, they wouldn't have sent you twice.
Finally, don't give up. When you get your PPL, and you will, you will sit back and wonder what all the worry was about.
Good luck.
PS I'll just add, if people at your club are going on lessons and you are hanging around doing nothing, ask them, in the nicest way possible, if they would mind you jumping in the back seat with a map. You can sit there quietly and just look and learn to relate the map to the ground and vice versa. Plenty of people were doing it when I did my PPL (obviously not when the student was solo) and it helped a great deal.
[ 07 January 2002: Message edited by: bow5 ]</p>
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Hey beammeupscottie - don't despair! There's a lot of sound advice above, and you CAN do this!
What I would add to what has already been said is that maybe you should do another DUAL x-country with an instructor, and maybe try someone other than your usual instructor. You want someone who will sit there and say nothing while monitoring what you do. They should be able to critique what you are doing right, and wrong. This will give you confidence, and highlight what it is you need to work on. Ater this, go out again and repeat the exercise solo!
Good luck!
Andy <img src="smile.gif" border="0">
What I would add to what has already been said is that maybe you should do another DUAL x-country with an instructor, and maybe try someone other than your usual instructor. You want someone who will sit there and say nothing while monitoring what you do. They should be able to critique what you are doing right, and wrong. This will give you confidence, and highlight what it is you need to work on. Ater this, go out again and repeat the exercise solo!
Good luck!
Andy <img src="smile.gif" border="0">
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Scottie,
Lots of good advice above. To which I'd add: start with the bigger picture before focusing in. The point about three distinctive features (like railway lines and roads) to confirm that you have reached your chosen reference point is a good one, but you often need to be reasonably close to your reference point before you can see them.
When I'm further away I find it easier to concentrate on larger landmarks that are more easily distinguished (coastline, ridges, estuaries, tall masts, reservoirs and lakes are good). They're easy to see on the map so I can judge where I ought to be in relation to them. Then when I'm a couple of minutes away from my chosen reference point I start looking out for its distinctive identifying features.
Don't give up – it'll be worth it in the end!
Lots of good advice above. To which I'd add: start with the bigger picture before focusing in. The point about three distinctive features (like railway lines and roads) to confirm that you have reached your chosen reference point is a good one, but you often need to be reasonably close to your reference point before you can see them.
When I'm further away I find it easier to concentrate on larger landmarks that are more easily distinguished (coastline, ridges, estuaries, tall masts, reservoirs and lakes are good). They're easy to see on the map so I can judge where I ought to be in relation to them. Then when I'm a couple of minutes away from my chosen reference point I start looking out for its distinctive identifying features.
Don't give up – it'll be worth it in the end!
ENTREPPRUNEUR
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beam
Visual navigation is perhaps the hardest part of the PPL. I originally learnt in Scotland where it is very difficult not to be able to line up the map and the outside world. So doing - in this case the CPL - was a doddle really.
Down here in Blighty however most places are similar to most other places so it is difficult and stressful. Just accept it. Don't worry about whether everybody is better than you - you may have had some bad luck.
You have to remember that flying gets easier as you practice it, until a point comes when you can be quite relaxed. This is true of visual navigation. Just do some more dual trips and relax - you'll find you keep getting where you wanted even if some of the time you can't match ground features. Those turning points coming up on the nose, on time, will do wonders for your confidence.
There is no harm in using the GPS to get your initial heading and groundspeed (don't use the map if it has one - they're for children). This will give you confidence that your Dead Reckoning is ok. Then don't look at it again for at least 15 minutes. You are now safe unless until you get near controlled airspace - but as with your turning points - you can judge this by time (ie DR) rather than the map (pilotage). Once you realise this you can enjoy yourself looking out the window and funnily enough you will keep seeing things that relate to your map...
Visual navigation is perhaps the hardest part of the PPL. I originally learnt in Scotland where it is very difficult not to be able to line up the map and the outside world. So doing - in this case the CPL - was a doddle really.
Down here in Blighty however most places are similar to most other places so it is difficult and stressful. Just accept it. Don't worry about whether everybody is better than you - you may have had some bad luck.
You have to remember that flying gets easier as you practice it, until a point comes when you can be quite relaxed. This is true of visual navigation. Just do some more dual trips and relax - you'll find you keep getting where you wanted even if some of the time you can't match ground features. Those turning points coming up on the nose, on time, will do wonders for your confidence.
There is no harm in using the GPS to get your initial heading and groundspeed (don't use the map if it has one - they're for children). This will give you confidence that your Dead Reckoning is ok. Then don't look at it again for at least 15 minutes. You are now safe unless until you get near controlled airspace - but as with your turning points - you can judge this by time (ie DR) rather than the map (pilotage). Once you realise this you can enjoy yourself looking out the window and funnily enough you will keep seeing things that relate to your map...
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A couple of suggestions. These observations are based on my own experience doing a PPL. Talk these through with an instructor before you take them seriously...
1. Don't pick landmarks that will be directly underneath the aircraft. You may not be able to see them! 2-4 miles to the left side is ideal in a 172.
2. Flying the right heading is vital. IMHO Staying on heading to within a couple of degrees is more important than having a perfect crosswind calculation - randomly wandering 15 degrees either side of your course is worse than forgetting the -10 degree course correction.
3. Keeping track of time is just as vital - in fact being sure of time is *critical*. If you knew where you were 10 minutes ago and you have maintained a constant heading and know how long it should take you to reach your new destination you should be able to look out the window and see your landmark. Knowing which window it should be visible from helps.
4. Once you've done a couple of legs in the same direction you'll know what the winds aloft *really* are. At that point you can apply a correction using the 1 in 60 rule. Remember that you want to get back onto your planned course, not fly parallel to it.
theRolfe
1. Don't pick landmarks that will be directly underneath the aircraft. You may not be able to see them! 2-4 miles to the left side is ideal in a 172.
2. Flying the right heading is vital. IMHO Staying on heading to within a couple of degrees is more important than having a perfect crosswind calculation - randomly wandering 15 degrees either side of your course is worse than forgetting the -10 degree course correction.
3. Keeping track of time is just as vital - in fact being sure of time is *critical*. If you knew where you were 10 minutes ago and you have maintained a constant heading and know how long it should take you to reach your new destination you should be able to look out the window and see your landmark. Knowing which window it should be visible from helps.
4. Once you've done a couple of legs in the same direction you'll know what the winds aloft *really* are. At that point you can apply a correction using the 1 in 60 rule. Remember that you want to get back onto your planned course, not fly parallel to it.
theRolfe
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Did my QXC two weeks ago. It went well, but I did become a bit 'uncertain of position' on the final leg. (I knew I was somewhere over Leicestershire, but I had no idea over which bit!)
I think the primary cause was not monitoring time correctly. (I was looking for things that couldn't be there yet or had been overflown long ago)
Once I got worried about the idea of being lost, I started to a) panic and b) let the flying go to pot. I started zig-zaging around hoping to be able to relate the ground to map. Eventually it did start to make sense, and I bumbled across my final turning point. Later on I examined the map, and on the basis of the ground features I could remember, I worked out I was never more than about 3 miles off track, and had I but concentrated on Time, the MAJOR ground features, and flown the planned heading, I would have arrived at my turning point 10 minutes earlier, and with a lot more hair.
Don't forget you can use your Rad-Nav skills to assist with position fixing.
Best wishes for the next attempt.
----
One final ideal I wanted some feedback on from other PPRUNErs (sorry to hijack your thread, but this might end up being useful to you) I'm considering on my next Nav-ex (i.e. the PPL Skill Test), circling any positive position fixes on my chart and annotaing the circle with the time of the fix. This way I can decrease my circle of uncertainty by knowing exactly when my last accurate position fix was - I found that not knowing this was most frustrating when I became uncertain of position - I realised that the last time I knew where I was AT A PARTICUALR TIME was when I had just taken off from XXX. Does anyone else use this technique?
[ 04 January 2002: Message edited by: tacpot ]</p>
I think the primary cause was not monitoring time correctly. (I was looking for things that couldn't be there yet or had been overflown long ago)
Once I got worried about the idea of being lost, I started to a) panic and b) let the flying go to pot. I started zig-zaging around hoping to be able to relate the ground to map. Eventually it did start to make sense, and I bumbled across my final turning point. Later on I examined the map, and on the basis of the ground features I could remember, I worked out I was never more than about 3 miles off track, and had I but concentrated on Time, the MAJOR ground features, and flown the planned heading, I would have arrived at my turning point 10 minutes earlier, and with a lot more hair.
Don't forget you can use your Rad-Nav skills to assist with position fixing.
Best wishes for the next attempt.
----
One final ideal I wanted some feedback on from other PPRUNErs (sorry to hijack your thread, but this might end up being useful to you) I'm considering on my next Nav-ex (i.e. the PPL Skill Test), circling any positive position fixes on my chart and annotaing the circle with the time of the fix. This way I can decrease my circle of uncertainty by knowing exactly when my last accurate position fix was - I found that not knowing this was most frustrating when I became uncertain of position - I realised that the last time I knew where I was AT A PARTICUALR TIME was when I had just taken off from XXX. Does anyone else use this technique?
[ 04 January 2002: Message edited by: tacpot ]</p>
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Hi beammeupscottie...
1) Plan your departure, i.e. what heading you will turn to and what you expect to see first - it is important that you have an aimpoint for when you do your checklist reading and COM, so you can put navigation down the list of priorities for 1-2 min. without getting lost.
2) When you approach the point that you have alrady identified - STOP DOING ANYTHING BUT :
3) Keep the map "track up" - not north up. I know you cannot read the names of the cities that way, but so what? You are not lost due to lack of knowledge of names, but du to lack of knowledge of position.
4) Ask youself : "If I stay on track, what will I see next"? Not just "a city" but "a city with a stream running NE to SW S of the the city, one multi-track railroad running N-S in the W part and 3 roads forging out to the north" - be VERY SPECIFIC! And choose something that appears within the next 1-1½ NM - not more than 3 NM between checkpoints! Use everythin : small powerlines, streams, small road junctions or turns.
5) Start the stopwatch and ask : "When will I meet this city"? - using SF 1-1½-2. Again, be very precise, using "guesstimates". This you can practicse on the ground.
6) When time is about to be up, provided you have maintained the correct heading, you should be able to see you city. Confirm that all your landmarks are there.
Repeat the process as necessary. Maintain the heading, use the stopwatch to find out where you are. If your heading has been OK, you cannot have strayed far L or R of track. Look at the watch, multiply min. by SF and see your distance from the last turnpoint - remember that this point cannot be more than 3 NM behind you. In such a short time, you cannot have gone far off track!
And keep working! You ought to lose 3-4 lb. sweat / hr. If you are not exhausted after flying low-level navigation - you are doing it wrong!
Best whishes from
Ivan
P.S. F*CK the 1-in-60-rule and all the fancy MDR navigation. You'll learn that in due time. If you cannot look out the window and find out where you are, you have absolutely no need for all the works. Remember : while you waste time making FUBAR calculations, the A/C is still moving - getting you even more lost! So:
LOOK OUT THE WINDOW! NAVIGATE! DON'T CALCULATE!!!
[ 04 January 2002: Message edited by: Ivan the Horrible ]</p>
1) Plan your departure, i.e. what heading you will turn to and what you expect to see first - it is important that you have an aimpoint for when you do your checklist reading and COM, so you can put navigation down the list of priorities for 1-2 min. without getting lost.
2) When you approach the point that you have alrady identified - STOP DOING ANYTHING BUT :
3) Keep the map "track up" - not north up. I know you cannot read the names of the cities that way, but so what? You are not lost due to lack of knowledge of names, but du to lack of knowledge of position.
4) Ask youself : "If I stay on track, what will I see next"? Not just "a city" but "a city with a stream running NE to SW S of the the city, one multi-track railroad running N-S in the W part and 3 roads forging out to the north" - be VERY SPECIFIC! And choose something that appears within the next 1-1½ NM - not more than 3 NM between checkpoints! Use everythin : small powerlines, streams, small road junctions or turns.
5) Start the stopwatch and ask : "When will I meet this city"? - using SF 1-1½-2. Again, be very precise, using "guesstimates". This you can practicse on the ground.
6) When time is about to be up, provided you have maintained the correct heading, you should be able to see you city. Confirm that all your landmarks are there.
Repeat the process as necessary. Maintain the heading, use the stopwatch to find out where you are. If your heading has been OK, you cannot have strayed far L or R of track. Look at the watch, multiply min. by SF and see your distance from the last turnpoint - remember that this point cannot be more than 3 NM behind you. In such a short time, you cannot have gone far off track!
And keep working! You ought to lose 3-4 lb. sweat / hr. If you are not exhausted after flying low-level navigation - you are doing it wrong!
Best whishes from
Ivan
P.S. F*CK the 1-in-60-rule and all the fancy MDR navigation. You'll learn that in due time. If you cannot look out the window and find out where you are, you have absolutely no need for all the works. Remember : while you waste time making FUBAR calculations, the A/C is still moving - getting you even more lost! So:
LOOK OUT THE WINDOW! NAVIGATE! DON'T CALCULATE!!!
[ 04 January 2002: Message edited by: Ivan the Horrible ]</p>
Dir. PPRuNe Line Service
I'm a student PPL about to do my QXC weather and time permitting <img src="frown.gif" border="0"> so far I've done three solo nav. flights, all which went as well as could be expected. On each occasion before I fly a XC one of the questions my instructor asks is :
"What will you do if you think you are getting lost?"
I have written down some things I could do to find out where I am and I have that with me in the aircraft. Some things I can do :
Figure out where I last knew where I was, know what direction I took and for how long. Then I know where I am to within 5 miles, probably less.
Look outside the aircraft for big, familiar landmarks, e.g. Greenham Common runway, Didcot Power station, Isle of Wight. It might sound silly but at one point I was "unsure of my position" three miles from Greenham Common in pretty good vis. I felt very silly when it was pointed out to me.
Find position with VORs/DMEs. My chinagraph pencils all have 1:500000 scales on their side and I know my thumb is 10nm/6min long.
Find position by asking for "True Bearing" or "training fix". ATC will (almost) always do their best to help.
Find position by switching to 121.5 and asking for training fix. On every solo nav flight I've done I do this for practice as I fly over a waypoint I'm familiar with.
And if I fail my QXC I won't worry - it's just another flight to enjoy, learn from and do again.
--Mik
"What will you do if you think you are getting lost?"
I have written down some things I could do to find out where I am and I have that with me in the aircraft. Some things I can do :
Figure out where I last knew where I was, know what direction I took and for how long. Then I know where I am to within 5 miles, probably less.
Look outside the aircraft for big, familiar landmarks, e.g. Greenham Common runway, Didcot Power station, Isle of Wight. It might sound silly but at one point I was "unsure of my position" three miles from Greenham Common in pretty good vis. I felt very silly when it was pointed out to me.
Find position with VORs/DMEs. My chinagraph pencils all have 1:500000 scales on their side and I know my thumb is 10nm/6min long.
Find position by asking for "True Bearing" or "training fix". ATC will (almost) always do their best to help.
Find position by switching to 121.5 and asking for training fix. On every solo nav flight I've done I do this for practice as I fly over a waypoint I'm familiar with.
And if I fail my QXC I won't worry - it's just another flight to enjoy, learn from and do again.
--Mik
"Trust Me"
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All good advice Scottie. Don't give up now!!
I can but add acouple of suggestions:
1. Buy an 'Airtour Plotter' Very quick way of sorting headings and distances from a fixed point.
2. Tell, don't ask, your instructor that you would like to do a Navex with HIM flying the plane. You just concentrate on the Nav.
3. The most useful thing I found on the map was putting on my 5 and 10 degree drift lines. 1 in 60 did my head in, but it's easier just to double the track error.
The last thing the rest of us want to see is someone giving up their PPL. If you do, you'll have at least half of Pprune to contend with!!
If u are in the south-east and want to run through prep and a pure Nav flight, e me as above.
I can but add acouple of suggestions:
1. Buy an 'Airtour Plotter' Very quick way of sorting headings and distances from a fixed point.
2. Tell, don't ask, your instructor that you would like to do a Navex with HIM flying the plane. You just concentrate on the Nav.
3. The most useful thing I found on the map was putting on my 5 and 10 degree drift lines. 1 in 60 did my head in, but it's easier just to double the track error.
The last thing the rest of us want to see is someone giving up their PPL. If you do, you'll have at least half of Pprune to contend with!!
If u are in the south-east and want to run through prep and a pure Nav flight, e me as above.
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I don't know where Ivan.t.H learn't his nav but most of his advice seems to me to be how NOT to navigate. You should NOT be sweating buckets after a navex, if he is picking checkpoints every 2-3NM though I can understand why he IS working so hard!
One thing I would agree with though is to forget the 1:60 rule, for most people it is far to difficult at PPL level and drawing 5&10 degree drift lines is a much easier way of estimating track error (you only need to draw them ONE side of track, if you go off the other side you can still see the error by looking and it does not clutter the map as much).
One thing I would agree with though is to forget the 1:60 rule, for most people it is far to difficult at PPL level and drawing 5&10 degree drift lines is a much easier way of estimating track error (you only need to draw them ONE side of track, if you go off the other side you can still see the error by looking and it does not clutter the map as much).
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gidday Scottie,
I have read all the replies, and every one has great advice. I have done my CPL and MECIR over here in the great land of Oz, and let me tell ya, the landscape doesn't offer much for positive fixing.
So here is my 2 cents.
1. LOOK AT THE BIG PICTURE
2. USE YOUR WATCH
3. USE COMMON SENSE..!!!
Navigating directly below your bum is THE best way to get lost. STAY AHEAD OF THE AIRCRAFT. Pick your fix 5 miles ahead, mark it on your map, know what your calc is, then as you pass it, look at your watch and join the dots..!!
The other BIG, BIG problem is peoples necessity to know THE SPEC OF DIRT they are over. Remember scottie, if you are doing your PPL, you are probably in an aircraft that doesnt exceed 120 kts. As long as you know where you SHOULD be, at 120 kts, you shouldnt be too far away.
And for god's sake, the first things you should have been taught is to :
1. HOLD YOUR HEADING
2. NAVIGATE : WATCH TO MAP TO GROUND
Learnt those tips off an F111 driver, and those puppies go Mach 1+, a whole lot faster than your PPL mobile.
I have read all the replies, and every one has great advice. I have done my CPL and MECIR over here in the great land of Oz, and let me tell ya, the landscape doesn't offer much for positive fixing.
So here is my 2 cents.
1. LOOK AT THE BIG PICTURE
2. USE YOUR WATCH
3. USE COMMON SENSE..!!!
Navigating directly below your bum is THE best way to get lost. STAY AHEAD OF THE AIRCRAFT. Pick your fix 5 miles ahead, mark it on your map, know what your calc is, then as you pass it, look at your watch and join the dots..!!
The other BIG, BIG problem is peoples necessity to know THE SPEC OF DIRT they are over. Remember scottie, if you are doing your PPL, you are probably in an aircraft that doesnt exceed 120 kts. As long as you know where you SHOULD be, at 120 kts, you shouldnt be too far away.
And for god's sake, the first things you should have been taught is to :
1. HOLD YOUR HEADING
2. NAVIGATE : WATCH TO MAP TO GROUND
Learnt those tips off an F111 driver, and those puppies go Mach 1+, a whole lot faster than your PPL mobile.
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Tons of good practical advice above. I can't think of much to add to that.
However, as someone said earlier on, you used to be able to do it, now you can't, so it sounds like you've developed some kind of block.
Firstly, that sort of thing seems to be relatively common in aviation. From what I've seen, the most likely things it happens with are landings, and nav. I managed to develop blocks with both of them when I was doing my PPL, so I'm a bit of an expert on this subject. <img src="wink.gif" border="0">
First, try and recognise what's happening in your head. With me, some little thing would go wrong; I wouldn't be quite sure where I was, and I'd over-react. I'd be convinced I was lost yet again, that I'd never get my PPL, and in no time at all I'd be too panicky to think clearly. I had to learn to orbit until I'd calmed down, then take a couple of deep breaths, and try and get my head sorted out before I sorted out the nav problem. The details may differ for you, but the general idea is probably the same.
Secondly, it may just possibly help to go over in detail what happened in all your navs, to try and find out what caused the block. It's probably some tiny little thing that you hardly noticed at the time, or were too busy to notice. Probably something that caused you to lose confidence in your own ability to navigate. Sometimes just finding out what it was can be all that's needed, though damned if I understand why <img src="confused.gif" border="0">
Above all, don't give up. Lots of us have had this problem, or similar ones. I'm sure you're not the first person to have to re-take their QXC twice. I was convinced for ages that I'd spent more hours than anyone in the history of aviation learning to land, and found out it definitely wasn't true. But if I was, so what? And if you are, so what? I still made it and so can you. Good luck!
However, as someone said earlier on, you used to be able to do it, now you can't, so it sounds like you've developed some kind of block.
Firstly, that sort of thing seems to be relatively common in aviation. From what I've seen, the most likely things it happens with are landings, and nav. I managed to develop blocks with both of them when I was doing my PPL, so I'm a bit of an expert on this subject. <img src="wink.gif" border="0">
First, try and recognise what's happening in your head. With me, some little thing would go wrong; I wouldn't be quite sure where I was, and I'd over-react. I'd be convinced I was lost yet again, that I'd never get my PPL, and in no time at all I'd be too panicky to think clearly. I had to learn to orbit until I'd calmed down, then take a couple of deep breaths, and try and get my head sorted out before I sorted out the nav problem. The details may differ for you, but the general idea is probably the same.
Secondly, it may just possibly help to go over in detail what happened in all your navs, to try and find out what caused the block. It's probably some tiny little thing that you hardly noticed at the time, or were too busy to notice. Probably something that caused you to lose confidence in your own ability to navigate. Sometimes just finding out what it was can be all that's needed, though damned if I understand why <img src="confused.gif" border="0">
Above all, don't give up. Lots of us have had this problem, or similar ones. I'm sure you're not the first person to have to re-take their QXC twice. I was convinced for ages that I'd spent more hours than anyone in the history of aviation learning to land, and found out it definitely wasn't true. But if I was, so what? And if you are, so what? I still made it and so can you. Good luck!
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foxmoth,
- unfortuneatly, I did not learn to navigate VFR, because nobody took the trouble teaching me a consistent method. So, I had to think up a method that worked for me (and subsequently my students).
No, the idea is not to sweat - but to keep working. How much effort you put into the work is up to yourself & level of experience. But after having taught VFR navigation for some years now, I see a pattern in why students get lost : they spend too much time thnking procedures, using advanced plotting gadgets or using 1-in-60 rules.
The point was : once you know how to navigate, it's easy. The flow, the way you look at the terrain, it all comes naturally. But if you are just learning navigation, you must put 95% of your energy into reading - as it was put (and very well at that) by reading from map to terrain. It's a question about priorities: keep navigating! Once you see that next terrain feature of yours, you gain a 30-40 sec. loophole that is used for flightlog, checklists, communication, fuel & system checks etc.. Once you are out of navigation - get into the map again and have a look at what you can expect to see next.
In my humble experience, if you navigate in 3-4 km. flight vis. and have 3-4 min. between taking consicously care of navigation, your CEP becomes too great, i.e. you have a good chance of ending up just out of sight of your chcekpoint. The idea is to distinguish between checkpoints in the terrain and waypoints in the flightlog. You should not need to attend to the flightlog more than once every 10-20 min. - but the checkpoints need constant attention. If you need to pass over or near a big city or coastline feature to navigate - then your personal WX minima will remain high (and not a bad word about that).
But if you put an effort into precission navigation every time (+/- 1 NM either side of track), also during CAVU conditions, you stand a far better chance of dealing with bad WX should you - God forbid - stick you neck too far out just once.
How NOT to navigate, foxmoth, is the way that gets you lost. What that might be is a personal choice. But one thing I am willing to bet on : the correct degree of detail, the less your chances of getting lost. Don't overdo it - but don't do like the majority of those students that I've come across - underdoing it.
Brgds,
Ivan
- unfortuneatly, I did not learn to navigate VFR, because nobody took the trouble teaching me a consistent method. So, I had to think up a method that worked for me (and subsequently my students).
No, the idea is not to sweat - but to keep working. How much effort you put into the work is up to yourself & level of experience. But after having taught VFR navigation for some years now, I see a pattern in why students get lost : they spend too much time thnking procedures, using advanced plotting gadgets or using 1-in-60 rules.
The point was : once you know how to navigate, it's easy. The flow, the way you look at the terrain, it all comes naturally. But if you are just learning navigation, you must put 95% of your energy into reading - as it was put (and very well at that) by reading from map to terrain. It's a question about priorities: keep navigating! Once you see that next terrain feature of yours, you gain a 30-40 sec. loophole that is used for flightlog, checklists, communication, fuel & system checks etc.. Once you are out of navigation - get into the map again and have a look at what you can expect to see next.
In my humble experience, if you navigate in 3-4 km. flight vis. and have 3-4 min. between taking consicously care of navigation, your CEP becomes too great, i.e. you have a good chance of ending up just out of sight of your chcekpoint. The idea is to distinguish between checkpoints in the terrain and waypoints in the flightlog. You should not need to attend to the flightlog more than once every 10-20 min. - but the checkpoints need constant attention. If you need to pass over or near a big city or coastline feature to navigate - then your personal WX minima will remain high (and not a bad word about that).
But if you put an effort into precission navigation every time (+/- 1 NM either side of track), also during CAVU conditions, you stand a far better chance of dealing with bad WX should you - God forbid - stick you neck too far out just once.
How NOT to navigate, foxmoth, is the way that gets you lost. What that might be is a personal choice. But one thing I am willing to bet on : the correct degree of detail, the less your chances of getting lost. Don't overdo it - but don't do like the majority of those students that I've come across - underdoing it.
Brgds,
Ivan
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Ivan, I learnt nav as an RN observer (basically a navigator with extra duties on top), I have also taught ppl nav and seen many people doing it wrong and getting lost, if you fly the aircraft even semi accurately you will fly from one checkpoint to the next one 10 mins or more apart with no problem even in low vis. the biggest cause of people getting lost I see is that they do exactly what you seem to be talking about and find points on the map every couple of miles, they then spend so much time looking at the map that they fail to see what they want to see outside. Much better to spend your time looking outside for a few GOOD checkpoints than have your head inside keep looking to see what might be comming up in the next mile or so.
Your technique may work for you and you may be able to get it over to someone face to face but prsonally I would advise against the checkpoint every 2 mile technique as a general method of navigating.
nb I do agree with your thoughts re fancy gadgets and overcomplicated procedures. <img src="wink.gif" border="0">
[ 05 January 2002: Message edited by: foxmoth ]</p>
Your technique may work for you and you may be able to get it over to someone face to face but prsonally I would advise against the checkpoint every 2 mile technique as a general method of navigating.
nb I do agree with your thoughts re fancy gadgets and overcomplicated procedures. <img src="wink.gif" border="0">
[ 05 January 2002: Message edited by: foxmoth ]</p>
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IMHO:
Checkpoints every couple of miles doesn't make sense to me. As the previous guy pointed out you can't get lost that fast!
An example:
Assume I am marginly competant. I have to fly 20 miles on a heading of 270. I fly 260 because I didn't set the DG properly. According to the 1-in-60 rule after 60 miles I'd be 10 miles off course. But if my checkpoint is at 15 miles I'd be 2.5 miles off course. 2.5 miles is managable. Anything less is hard to notice.
By using a shorter checkpoint distance you'd get writers cramp from writing down all the numbers, risk a midair because you can't be looking outside that much, drift off heading because your focus is inside and fail to detect that you aren't actually on the right course because you didn't wait long enough between checkpoints for drift to be apparent. Bear in mind that your airspeed and heading are as accurate as you are but that the winds aloft forecast may well be wrong. If you devote your time to flying in a straight line and keeping track of time to the nearest minute then any difference between your planned and actual position was caused by winds aloft.
Another thing: There's no way you can choose good checkpoints every couple of miles. By settling for an average of about 17 miles you can pick *good* ones that will give you confidence that you are where you are supposed to be rather than a selection of crappy ones. In poker terms your checkpoints need to be "3 Kings" rather than "a pair of twos".
theRolfe
Checkpoints every couple of miles doesn't make sense to me. As the previous guy pointed out you can't get lost that fast!
An example:
Assume I am marginly competant. I have to fly 20 miles on a heading of 270. I fly 260 because I didn't set the DG properly. According to the 1-in-60 rule after 60 miles I'd be 10 miles off course. But if my checkpoint is at 15 miles I'd be 2.5 miles off course. 2.5 miles is managable. Anything less is hard to notice.
By using a shorter checkpoint distance you'd get writers cramp from writing down all the numbers, risk a midair because you can't be looking outside that much, drift off heading because your focus is inside and fail to detect that you aren't actually on the right course because you didn't wait long enough between checkpoints for drift to be apparent. Bear in mind that your airspeed and heading are as accurate as you are but that the winds aloft forecast may well be wrong. If you devote your time to flying in a straight line and keeping track of time to the nearest minute then any difference between your planned and actual position was caused by winds aloft.
Another thing: There's no way you can choose good checkpoints every couple of miles. By settling for an average of about 17 miles you can pick *good* ones that will give you confidence that you are where you are supposed to be rather than a selection of crappy ones. In poker terms your checkpoints need to be "3 Kings" rather than "a pair of twos".
theRolfe
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Check points every two miles? Whaaaaaaaaaat? I was taught to split each leg into quarters, regardless of distance, and it's always worked for me.
Only time it didn't on a DR flight was when the compass was found to be out 20-30 degrees when flying west only. Quick call to D&D soon sorted that out!
DOC
Only time it didn't on a DR flight was when the compass was found to be out 20-30 degrees when flying west only. Quick call to D&D soon sorted that out!
DOC