EASA threat to operation of N Reg Aircraft
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Pace
Those figures for European FTO revenues are much over-estimated.
Firstly, it is obvious from the various figures I have seen that a lot (more than half, I recall, especially in Germany) do not have IRs, so they would be converting only the PPL. And most N-reg pilots already have a European PPL, so the conversion will be trivial. No income for most AMEs either because if you have to run two medicals then you go to one of the few AMEs which can do both at the same time (which is what I do).
Secondly, most of the pilot population is in the UK, Germany, and France, with far less (or in some cases virtually zero) GA in the rest of Europe. Do you think the average Brit or German is going to go to his local FTO to do the IR? No, he will go down to Spain or Greece, where the weather is nice, the food is vastly better, the prices are lower, and gold plating is usefully missing
So the N European FTOs are not going to make much out of any EASA-forced large scale conversion business to a Euro IR.
Thirdly, a lot of pilots will simply not convert. I can imagine most pilots in their 60s (which is an awful lot of PPL/IRs) simply not bothering, and flying "VFR" all the time. If you have a de-iced plane, it works OK Or they will fly Z flight plans (VFR to IFR to VFR) arranged so any IFR portion is over countries where they are not landing.... or they will ask for a popup clearance, etc, etc.
Fourthly, a lot of pilots will chuck it in for good. Flying is full of hassle and crap already, which starts the moment the wheels touch the ground. Airports are full of crap (PPR, PNR, etc), maintenance is a constant hassle for many, and the stupendous aviation regulatory apparatus is just right for running a private nuclear power station. If your flying is curtailed, there is a lot less to enjoy.
englishal
The FAA training has never been a problem, and JAA instructors can do it in local-reg planes. The FAA accepts the lot. The issue, as you know, is and always has been with the checkride
Those figures for European FTO revenues are much over-estimated.
Firstly, it is obvious from the various figures I have seen that a lot (more than half, I recall, especially in Germany) do not have IRs, so they would be converting only the PPL. And most N-reg pilots already have a European PPL, so the conversion will be trivial. No income for most AMEs either because if you have to run two medicals then you go to one of the few AMEs which can do both at the same time (which is what I do).
Secondly, most of the pilot population is in the UK, Germany, and France, with far less (or in some cases virtually zero) GA in the rest of Europe. Do you think the average Brit or German is going to go to his local FTO to do the IR? No, he will go down to Spain or Greece, where the weather is nice, the food is vastly better, the prices are lower, and gold plating is usefully missing
So the N European FTOs are not going to make much out of any EASA-forced large scale conversion business to a Euro IR.Thirdly, a lot of pilots will simply not convert. I can imagine most pilots in their 60s (which is an awful lot of PPL/IRs) simply not bothering, and flying "VFR" all the time. If you have a de-iced plane, it works OK
Or they will fly Z flight plans (VFR to IFR to VFR) arranged so any IFR portion is over countries where they are not landing.... or they will ask for a popup clearance, etc, etc.Fourthly, a lot of pilots will chuck it in for good. Flying is full of hassle and crap already, which starts the moment the wheels touch the ground. Airports are full of crap (PPR, PNR, etc), maintenance is a constant hassle for many, and the stupendous aviation regulatory apparatus is just right for running a private nuclear power station. If your flying is curtailed, there is a lot less to enjoy.
englishal
The FAA training has never been a problem, and JAA instructors can do it in local-reg planes. The FAA accepts the lot. The issue, as you know, is and always has been with the checkride
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Spot on IO.
I'm pretty much at the end of the road with private flying as a mode of travel in Europe and if this go's ahead, thats me ! no more ME/IR, they can shove it up their respective ar**s....
Back to classics and a little light aero's on the weekend and use the rest of the money that I normally spend on aviation on other fun things....life is just too short
rmac
I'm pretty much at the end of the road with private flying as a mode of travel in Europe and if this go's ahead, thats me ! no more ME/IR, they can shove it up their respective ar**s....
Back to classics and a little light aero's on the weekend and use the rest of the money that I normally spend on aviation on other fun things....life is just too short
rmac
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Well as a local pole where I am. 50% of the JAR ATPL holders have ATP's as well, mostly they were gained as a means to an end for Asian carriers. But they are all aged 45-65. The post JAR trained pilots don't seem to have them as JAR licenses are pretty much universally transfered with no issues.
I think your putting to much weight on the FTO's doing the lobbying. From my limited surfing on the subject. The FTO's apart from LH and Oxford are not really getting involved. And I wouldn't have expect either of them to pick up any work from the changes. Maybe its a ploy to try and force wannabies into MPL courses I don't know.
From what I can see the most lobbying is coming from Engineering firms and Biz Jet operators and certain groups of commercial pilots (which I might add I am not in) most if not all of which are based in Central Europe. As usual the UK seems in the majority to be in "can't be arsed with politics mode" lobbying either for or against N reg.
But it seems your up against some rather hefty Unions in Europe though who I suspect really don't care about private flyers.
I think your putting to much weight on the FTO's doing the lobbying. From my limited surfing on the subject. The FTO's apart from LH and Oxford are not really getting involved. And I wouldn't have expect either of them to pick up any work from the changes. Maybe its a ploy to try and force wannabies into MPL courses I don't know.
From what I can see the most lobbying is coming from Engineering firms and Biz Jet operators and certain groups of commercial pilots (which I might add I am not in) most if not all of which are based in Central Europe. As usual the UK seems in the majority to be in "can't be arsed with politics mode" lobbying either for or against N reg.
But it seems your up against some rather hefty Unions in Europe though who I suspect really don't care about private flyers.
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From what I can see the most lobbying is coming from Engineering firms and Biz Jet operators and certain groups of commercial pilots (which I might add I am not in) most if not all of which are based in Central Europe.
I don't see engineering companies caring either way (unless they are stupid) because they can all do N-reg planes - just need an IA to sign off the Annual.
In fact they benefit from N-reg work because they can charge for it at EASA Part M prices, but they haven't got the paperwork to do. I used to pay the Part M price and used to then pay the IA separately
(used to......)
But it seems your up against some rather hefty Unions in Europe though who I suspect really don't care about private flyers.
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Your guess is as good as mine IO. I think I read it on a German language website. I can't find it in my history. It was one of the big ones though who I would very much doudt would get any additional buisness.
I presume its the Engineers union linking in with the Pilots unions linking in with what other Unions who wants Shot of N reg. I think my views that if the plane is based in the EU it should be on an EU reg are pretty easy to explain to none aviation types so the unions have been using that to bollster additional lobbying power from associated unions. Unions tell there management they are to take this policy. It keeps the unions happy and doesn't cost anything to write a letter so they do it anyway as they don't care either way.
I think the ones that are lobbying were in Germany,France, Spain, Portugal, Greece and Italy. The UK wasn't really mentioned.
Whats the British pilots associations saying? I haven't heard anything. I presume because it isn't effecting the 4 big employers of union members they will be keeping out of it.
The GA side of things wasn't really featured in the stuff I was reading. The only stuff that was coming up was the threads on PPrune, some AOPA stuff and some pilot mags. If you going for sheer volumes of numbers pro and against your talking 100's of thousands pro getting shot of it with union members.
I presume its the Engineers union linking in with the Pilots unions linking in with what other Unions who wants Shot of N reg. I think my views that if the plane is based in the EU it should be on an EU reg are pretty easy to explain to none aviation types so the unions have been using that to bollster additional lobbying power from associated unions. Unions tell there management they are to take this policy. It keeps the unions happy and doesn't cost anything to write a letter so they do it anyway as they don't care either way.
I think the ones that are lobbying were in Germany,France, Spain, Portugal, Greece and Italy. The UK wasn't really mentioned.
Whats the British pilots associations saying? I haven't heard anything. I presume because it isn't effecting the 4 big employers of union members they will be keeping out of it.
The GA side of things wasn't really featured in the stuff I was reading. The only stuff that was coming up was the threads on PPrune, some AOPA stuff and some pilot mags. If you going for sheer volumes of numbers pro and against your talking 100's of thousands pro getting shot of it with union members.
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BALPA are a disgrace. When I was running the IMCr campaign (with others) I wrote to them six times. They didnt have the courtesy to even acknowledge my communication, I think the only organisation that didnt. Members of that organisation should be ashamed.
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Fuji
Pitty that you did not tell me............As a BALPA member I would have loved to have kicked that butts of the useless bunch of twats that run BALPA, I paid them a lot of money and when I needed it got sweet FA in the way of help.
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Here is an opportunity to support a legal action in Europe.
IMHO this is worthwhile.
I happen to know that there is more than one legal action being kicked off against the EU proposals. It really does look like they did not think this through, and the more stuff we can hit them with all in one go the better.
IMHO this is worthwhile.
I happen to know that there is more than one legal action being kicked off against the EU proposals. It really does look like they did not think this through, and the more stuff we can hit them with all in one go the better.
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Why on earth is any heavy tin driver in the Eu ( or for that matter the USA)going to give a toss about N reg in the EU. They maybe on my point of view but certainly ain't going to be on yours IO. It costs us 40 quid more than an IMC to get a SPA-IR in an SEP.
It ain't going to effect our jobs because we already have a JAR license.
My Emails have come back that its policy that the issue is not going to continue what ever happens and thats from the EMP, MSP and MP. My MP was the best one even though he has more clout than the rest put together (second man in the treasury looks like harry potter). Major issue not willing to commment on goverment policy but not an issue that the current goverment is willing to devote chamber time on.
The EMP didn't seem to have a bloody clue to be honest and asked the question "What has an American pilots license got to do with the european parliment?" Which basically sums it up to me.
It ain't going to effect our jobs because we already have a JAR license.
My Emails have come back that its policy that the issue is not going to continue what ever happens and thats from the EMP, MSP and MP. My MP was the best one even though he has more clout than the rest put together (second man in the treasury looks like harry potter). Major issue not willing to commment on goverment policy but not an issue that the current goverment is willing to devote chamber time on.
The EMP didn't seem to have a bloody clue to be honest and asked the question "What has an American pilots license got to do with the european parliment?" Which basically sums it up to me.
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..and the medium turbo prop operators.
It stinks of sour grapes this thread - "I paid £60,000 for my gold plated license, so why shouldn't you".....
Perhaps some people have different opportunities, different goals, different finances, and perhaps some people don't want to fly a BA747 but a Cathay Pacific one instead. Perhaps some people only want to be able to fly their SEP to Spain safely on days when every other british pilot will be scud running at 1000' for their £150 burger at the airfield 20 miles away.
It stinks of sour grapes this thread - "I paid £60,000 for my gold plated license, so why shouldn't you".....
Perhaps some people have different opportunities, different goals, different finances, and perhaps some people don't want to fly a BA747 but a Cathay Pacific one instead. Perhaps some people only want to be able to fly their SEP to Spain safely on days when every other british pilot will be scud running at 1000' for their £150 burger at the airfield 20 miles away.
I find your attitude surprising, Jock.
I'm not quite sure what you are getting from even contributing to this thread? You said yourself that this doesn't affect you as you have a JAA licence, so one can only conclude that it's to gloat? But I am sure that you are not like that.
For a few years I made a living from my FAA professional Licence, based in the UK and very safely and professionally flying company staff around all the corners of deepest Europe in a turboprop. In fact I have done so with two companies now. We didn't break any laws, never flew bent charters, never stole any work from AOC operators.
Sadly I have come accross many of the anti FAA axe grinders in my 17 years in flying, many are even within my social circle. This site is rife with them. Funnily enough one or two who were pretty vocal behind my back (socially and in the flying club) about my crap licence/job etc were suddenly quite interested to come on a King Air trip with me when I was let loose on the aircraft myself. Can't really say that they were top of my list!
In my case I have given up with finding work with my FAA licence in Europe now, I have finally given in to the politics, cat fighting and bitching. I wish no further part in it. Now that I have finally got around the medical issue that prevented my JAA licence years ago I am now quietly going about the conversion process.
However, I take no pleasure at all in reading about this campaign to rid europe of FAA crews. It would be very refreshing to read that some of you who are not affected (jock) might actually either support other flyers or keep one's opinions to himself.
And for those of you who beleive this is a done deal, I wouldn't be so cocky yet...
I'm not quite sure what you are getting from even contributing to this thread? You said yourself that this doesn't affect you as you have a JAA licence, so one can only conclude that it's to gloat? But I am sure that you are not like that.
For a few years I made a living from my FAA professional Licence, based in the UK and very safely and professionally flying company staff around all the corners of deepest Europe in a turboprop. In fact I have done so with two companies now. We didn't break any laws, never flew bent charters, never stole any work from AOC operators.
Sadly I have come accross many of the anti FAA axe grinders in my 17 years in flying, many are even within my social circle. This site is rife with them. Funnily enough one or two who were pretty vocal behind my back (socially and in the flying club) about my crap licence/job etc were suddenly quite interested to come on a King Air trip with me when I was let loose on the aircraft myself. Can't really say that they were top of my list!
In my case I have given up with finding work with my FAA licence in Europe now, I have finally given in to the politics, cat fighting and bitching. I wish no further part in it. Now that I have finally got around the medical issue that prevented my JAA licence years ago I am now quietly going about the conversion process.
However, I take no pleasure at all in reading about this campaign to rid europe of FAA crews. It would be very refreshing to read that some of you who are not affected (jock) might actually either support other flyers or keep one's opinions to himself.
And for those of you who beleive this is a done deal, I wouldn't be so cocky yet...
Last edited by youngskywalker; 9th Nov 2010 at 09:41.
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European Parliament Transport Committee exchanges views with EASA this afternoon
Spotted 3rd agenda point (15.0) of this afternoon's meeting : "exchange of views with EASA"
Committee on Transport and Tourism
Committee on Transport and Tourism
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To be honest I would be more than happy if all the current FAA pilots had a period of automatic transfer or some form of life approval to continue operating as they have done.
I am not gloating about the changes I just think the current situation is wrong.
I do actually agree with 99% of what IO Pace says in relation to pilot training and access to a realistic IR for private pilots. The only issue is that N reg is the way to do it.
I just don't agree that using a 2nd country's flag to get around the local rules. I also agree that the local rules are miss guided and stray away from the principle that aviation rules are there for safety and nothing else.
And I didn't pay 60K for my tickets I payed 35k for the whole lot CPl/IR and FI.
And I will apologise for the tone of my last post, in the light of day rereading it it comes across as aggressive which is really not the way I am about this subject. I have alot of respect for what IO does with his aircraft and I certainly don't want him to have to stop.
I am not gloating about the changes I just think the current situation is wrong.
I do actually agree with 99% of what IO Pace says in relation to pilot training and access to a realistic IR for private pilots. The only issue is that N reg is the way to do it.
I just don't agree that using a 2nd country's flag to get around the local rules. I also agree that the local rules are miss guided and stray away from the principle that aviation rules are there for safety and nothing else.
And I didn't pay 60K for my tickets I payed 35k for the whole lot CPl/IR and FI.
And I will apologise for the tone of my last post, in the light of day rereading it it comes across as aggressive which is really not the way I am about this subject. I have alot of respect for what IO does with his aircraft and I certainly don't want him to have to stop.
Spotted 3rd agenda point (15.0) of this afternoon's meeting : "exchange of views with EASA"