Some general beginner questions

[mrmum]

fATPL

So a frozen ATPL is when you have everything you need for ATPL apart from the hours? And i'm guessing most people get their hours whilst working? Or do you need 'buy' your own hours up to 1500?

That's pretty much correct, a fATPL if that's what we're going call it, is when you actually have a CPL, have passed the ATPL theory exams, probably with a MCC course and IR. But you don't have some or all of the various hours requirements.

Yes, most people will get the hours between CPL and ATPL by working, you could "buy" them, but as has been said by myself and others, it'll be expensive.

[mrmum]

What use is a CPL?

Oh, and is there really nothing you can do with CPL? Are there more opportunities if you own your own ac?

There are several things you can do with a CPL, most of which will require some kind of additional rating, for instance;

Instruct - also requires a FI(R) rating
Banner Towing
Pleasure Flights
Photography
Be a FO - will require an IR, MCC, Type rating

Getting to do any of there in the current climate will be difficult, however you are realistically about 2 years from being ready for the job market. Not sure if having your own aircraft will help much in any of the above. Maybe, in the instructor case, if you had something quite nice and desirable, that a club might lease off you, but generally no I think.

[mrmum]

Fly in the US?

I've done some more research and it seems it's a lot cheaper flying/learning in the US, is this true? Why is it cheaper there? If I have the 'capital' would it be worth going over there and doing everything?

Yes, it will almost certainly be cheaper to do as much as possible in the US, or the other countries that you see advertising quite heavily.

It is cheaper for several reasons;

Fuel price, a significant proportion of aircraft operating costs is fuel, so cheap fuel directly equates to cheap flying.
Utilisation, by the US people mostly mean Florida, to a degree California and maybe Arizona and Texas. They tend to have generally predictable, year round decent flying weather, so their fixed costs are split over a greater number of flying hours.
CAA/FAA, they're not being over-charged and over-regulated to death by their NAA.
Landing fees, largely non-existant over there.
£-$ exchange rate, depends I know, but can help.


If you've got the time and capital, it'll be worth it financially to go and do as much as you can in the States. Flying is flying wherever you are, you should learn the same aircraft handling skills regardless of location, there is a case to be made for getting familiarity with European airspace, procedures and weather while training. We don't really need to go over all this though, just have a root about with the search function for pros and cons of flying abroad.

But you've pretty much hit on my pet hate here. It really ps me off when people fk off to the States, spend all their money over there, then come back expecting the UK GA industry to provide them with a job. They moan about the lack of airfields, cost of landings, cost/quality of aircraft. However, if they had stayed and done their training here, then UK clubs and airfields would have had their money to invest back into fleets and facilities over here.

[mrmum]

Getting a job

Does 'knowing' someone in the 'industry' help?

Yes, undoubtedly. It's as much who you know, being in the right place at the right time, as having all the bits of paper and boxes ticked.

[just_me]

Just a quick question, didn't want to make another thread for it so i'll ressurect this one instead..

1. I've read that you need to be 21 to recieve ATPL, but is it possible to take all the exams and/or still work as a co-pilot for an airline before you're 21, or do you have to wait until you're actually 21 THEN get your 'Frozen ATPL'.. I would of thought that you could still do everything before you're 21 you just won't actually recieve the ATPL until you're 21?

2. I know I asked this before, but are there ANY "CPL" jobs ANYWHERE? No matter how low paid it is there must be something out there for someone who is able to fly a plane. What about flying doctors/aid/whatever around Africa, ANYTHING! I'd much rather fly for mimimum wage than work behind a counter for minimum wage. So I figured it would be better if there was something out there I could just get my PPL/CPL a.s.a.p and then earn money for hours/exams by flying. Otherwise, is there any way to build hours for free anywhere in the UK or outside UK?

3. I'm still stuck whether to stay in UK or go to the US, some people say US is miles chapers, others say that when you take into account travelling/living/conversion costs it ends up being about the same. What other options are there, other European countries? Or what about South America? Asia? I'd imagine if something exists out there it would be a lot cheaper over there?

4. Just to make sure I understood everything, when you go from nothing -> fATPL you pay for flying lessons/hours and you study by yourself for ALL the necessary PPL/CPL/IR/ATPL exams, basically read the books then go and do the test? It seems a bit.. too easy to be true..

5. How common is it that you have to pay for Type Rating yourself?

6. I know there's a saturation of pilots out there, but is it mostly the fact that everyone wants the 'best' jobs or are there really NO jobs out there? Everyone here talks about Ryanair and BA but what about flying mail/cargo/etc. or flying oil rig equipment out to the dessert (like Flight of the Phoenix ) Why are they never mentioned here? Does everyone just want the big paycheck and 'sexy' uniform?

Whoops, it seems like my quick question became six questions

Oh well... I hope someone has answers

Thanks in advance!

[Fuji Abound]

3. I'm still stuck whether to stay in UK or go to the US, some people say US is miles chapers, others say that when you take into account travelling/living/conversion costs it ends up being about the same. What other options are there, other European countries? Or what about South America? Asia? I'd imagine if something exists out there it would be a lot cheaper over there?

There isnt a simple answer.

The cost equation is made up of a number of components some of which may apply to you and some may not. For example, if you earn £100 an hour endless trips to the airport with lessons cancelled due to weather may make the certainty of flying in parts of the States very attractive.

In short you need to do the sums. The actual cost of rental in the States was significantly cheaper, the gap has narrowed, but it is still less. However, you may need to add loss of income (while training in the States), cost of accomodation and travel to the States, additional training back in the UK to deal with local club / group rules and our grey weather etc.

In short the headline cost is less, but the overall cost may be more. You need to work the sums for your own circumstances.

[mrmum]

1. I've read that you need to be 21 to recieve ATPL, but is it possible to take all the exams and/or still work as a co-pilot for an airline before you're 21, or do you have to wait until you're actually 21 THEN get your 'Frozen ATPL'.. I would of thought that you could still do everything before you're 21 you just won't actually recieve the ATPL until you're 21?

YES, you must be a minimum of 21 to have an ATPL issued.
YES, you can have everything done anytime between 18 and 21, have a CPL issued and use it, this situation is commonly referred to as having a fATPL, although you never actually possess this fATPL thing, what you have is a CPL and meet some of (usually the theoretical) requirements for an ATPL, when you manage to tick all the boxes then you can trade-up from CPL to ATPL.

4. Just to make sure I understood everything, when you go from nothing -> fATPL you pay for flying lessons/hours and you study by yourself for ALL the necessary PPL/CPL/IR/ATPL exams, basically read the books then go and do the test? It seems a bit.. too easy to be true..

YES, you pay for the flying as you go.
People probably mostly self-study for the PPL theory exams, as they are not very hard, can be done one at a time and at your own convenience. There are a good selection of books & CD/DVDs available and plenty of practice exam papers out there, both in book and online forms. However for the professional theoretical exams it's different. Pretty much nobody does the CPL level exams, everyone just goes straight to the ATPLs, which also cover the theoretical knowledge requirements for the IR. You are not allowed to just self-study then turn up for the exams, you have to do a course with an approved training provider (such as Bristol GS), this can be done full-time if you wish, but distance learning with residential brush-up at the end is more popular if following the modular route.