Silencers on GA Aircraft
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Manchester, UK
Posts: 492
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Silencers on GA Aircraft
I'm starting this thread from a basis of relative ignorance, apart from what I've read recently in the aviation press, but it will be interesting to see what's going on & what you all think.....
1. Silencer kits for many aero engines are available from (I think) Germany, and there is a UK distributer, but I heard that the CAA is not allowing them to be fitted yet. Is this true?
2. If 1. is true, shouldnt we as responsible & environmentally conscious chaps/ chappesses <img src="cool.gif" border="0"> be lobbying the CAA to get them in use ASAP? Or is anyone aware of a time scale for them to become "legal"?
3. Even if the CAA aren't allowing them, can we fit them to PFA aircraft? What engines can be silenced with these things?
4. Having said that, how many of you out there would fit a silencer to your Pootleflivver Mk.2 ? i.e. how many of us actually LIKE the sound our engine makes vs. how many of us want to go about our busines quietly?
5. How much would it help the cause of threatened airfields & strips (I suspect very little because NIMBYs will be NIMBYs whatever)...
Obvious ramifications in terms of reducing NIMBY protests etc.... but on a selfish note, I must admit, I quite like the roar of an engine (specially if its a Merlin...).
However, I once flew a Taylor monoplane with an absolutely brilliant exhaust system that really cut the noise down (& a few years later, a Katana which was similarly quiet).
It was a very pleasant flying experience, albeit slightly distrubing for the first couple of minutes because there was effectively very little to monitor. Mind you, I suppose I soon would have known about it if there was...
1. Silencer kits for many aero engines are available from (I think) Germany, and there is a UK distributer, but I heard that the CAA is not allowing them to be fitted yet. Is this true?
2. If 1. is true, shouldnt we as responsible & environmentally conscious chaps/ chappesses <img src="cool.gif" border="0"> be lobbying the CAA to get them in use ASAP? Or is anyone aware of a time scale for them to become "legal"?
3. Even if the CAA aren't allowing them, can we fit them to PFA aircraft? What engines can be silenced with these things?
4. Having said that, how many of you out there would fit a silencer to your Pootleflivver Mk.2 ? i.e. how many of us actually LIKE the sound our engine makes vs. how many of us want to go about our busines quietly?
5. How much would it help the cause of threatened airfields & strips (I suspect very little because NIMBYs will be NIMBYs whatever)...
Obvious ramifications in terms of reducing NIMBY protests etc.... but on a selfish note, I must admit, I quite like the roar of an engine (specially if its a Merlin...).
However, I once flew a Taylor monoplane with an absolutely brilliant exhaust system that really cut the noise down (& a few years later, a Katana which was similarly quiet).
It was a very pleasant flying experience, albeit slightly distrubing for the first couple of minutes because there was effectively very little to monitor. Mind you, I suppose I soon would have known about it if there was...
Victim of Blackmailing Scouser
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Zürich, Switzerland (But a Brit)
Age: 59
Posts: 113
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I hope you have more luck on this subject than I. I've tried to kick start threads here and elsewhere on this subject, but no one seems to have much of an opinion.
Why is that?
TW
Why is that?
TW
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Manchester, UK
Posts: 492
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Thanks Tricky Woo.....
Maybe we could just keep going on to each other and create our own Burning Issue ?
I'd hate to think that there was no interest because pilots were a bunch of selfish so & so's... I'm sure that's not the case!!! <img src="rolleyes.gif" border="0"> <img src="rolleyes.gif" border="0"> <img src="rolleyes.gif" border="0">
Maybe we could just keep going on to each other and create our own Burning Issue ?
I'd hate to think that there was no interest because pilots were a bunch of selfish so & so's... I'm sure that's not the case!!! <img src="rolleyes.gif" border="0"> <img src="rolleyes.gif" border="0"> <img src="rolleyes.gif" border="0">
Safety First!
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 516
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
1. Noise is and always has been a part of flying.
2. If you are looking for a house don't buy near an airport or aerodrome where you know the noise will become unbearable.
3. It will be cheaper to silence the anti-noise and anti-aviation people than to silence the engines.
Kermie <img src="rolleyes.gif" border="0">
2. If you are looking for a house don't buy near an airport or aerodrome where you know the noise will become unbearable.
3. It will be cheaper to silence the anti-noise and anti-aviation people than to silence the engines.
Kermie <img src="rolleyes.gif" border="0">
I've had a little to do with this subject. Answering the poet's specific points: -
(1) Yes they are available, yes the CAA will permit them, no the CAA won't approve them without copies of the German certification, manuals and drawings translated into English for them.
(2) Environmentally aware aviators should be applying to do things on their own aeroplanes, the CAA won't do anything until asked by somebody with a specific need.
(3) Yes, of course you can. Call PFA Engineering on 01273-461616 and have a chat to John or Francis who will give you chapter and verse on how to get it approved.
(4) Well I fly an open cockpit microlight with a Rotax, and the silencer is mandatory. Given how noisy it is with the silencer, I'd certainly consider fitting on if it wasn't there. But, they are expensive things.
(5) The BMAA's planning chappie (Brian Cosgrove) has told me that the fact that Microlights HAVE to have silencers and be below a maximum noise output makes a big difference when applying for airfield permissions.
Putting my professional Engineers hat on here, if I were working for the CAA (which I don't, but I know many who do) I'd want the following wrapping up to approve a silencer...
WHAT IS IT? - design drawings
HOW DOES IT WORK - manuals and test reports
WHAT DOES IT DO TO AIRCRAFT PERFORMANCE - flight test reports
WHAT DOES IT DO TO AIRCRAFT HANDLING - flight test reports
CAN I ISSUE A BLANKET APPROVAL - has the exhaust manufacturer got an ICAO standard quality control and assurance system in place.
WHAT DOES THE PILOT NEED TO KNOW - POH supplement
None of this is insurmountable, but anybody thinking that CAA will drop anything to approve an exhaust without the above being provided for them, is daft. It's all quite easy to do in some countries (such as the USA) or in the UK on PFA/BMAA aircraft, but really the only people in a position to do this sort of work on a CofA aircraft in the UK would be an "approved company" such as FLS, FRA, Slingsby, Britten-Norman, etc. If the thing was approved in another ICAO country such as Germany, and all the paperwork exists there, it should hopefully just be a case of getting the translations done, and paying the CAA's minimum major-mod fee of £309.
G
(1) Yes they are available, yes the CAA will permit them, no the CAA won't approve them without copies of the German certification, manuals and drawings translated into English for them.
(2) Environmentally aware aviators should be applying to do things on their own aeroplanes, the CAA won't do anything until asked by somebody with a specific need.
(3) Yes, of course you can. Call PFA Engineering on 01273-461616 and have a chat to John or Francis who will give you chapter and verse on how to get it approved.
(4) Well I fly an open cockpit microlight with a Rotax, and the silencer is mandatory. Given how noisy it is with the silencer, I'd certainly consider fitting on if it wasn't there. But, they are expensive things.
(5) The BMAA's planning chappie (Brian Cosgrove) has told me that the fact that Microlights HAVE to have silencers and be below a maximum noise output makes a big difference when applying for airfield permissions.
Putting my professional Engineers hat on here, if I were working for the CAA (which I don't, but I know many who do) I'd want the following wrapping up to approve a silencer...
WHAT IS IT? - design drawings
HOW DOES IT WORK - manuals and test reports
WHAT DOES IT DO TO AIRCRAFT PERFORMANCE - flight test reports
WHAT DOES IT DO TO AIRCRAFT HANDLING - flight test reports
CAN I ISSUE A BLANKET APPROVAL - has the exhaust manufacturer got an ICAO standard quality control and assurance system in place.
WHAT DOES THE PILOT NEED TO KNOW - POH supplement
None of this is insurmountable, but anybody thinking that CAA will drop anything to approve an exhaust without the above being provided for them, is daft. It's all quite easy to do in some countries (such as the USA) or in the UK on PFA/BMAA aircraft, but really the only people in a position to do this sort of work on a CofA aircraft in the UK would be an "approved company" such as FLS, FRA, Slingsby, Britten-Norman, etc. If the thing was approved in another ICAO country such as Germany, and all the paperwork exists there, it should hopefully just be a case of getting the translations done, and paying the CAA's minimum major-mod fee of £309.
G
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Manchester, UK
Posts: 492
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Thanks Kermie / Genghis.
Kermie - Ideal world situation is what you describe. Sorry, that doesn't happen here, like it or not, airfields and strips are constantly under threat with noise often cited as the reason. People move to areas by airfields, then they start complaining.
We cannot stick our heads in the ground forever. Plus, our own flying may be more relaxing/enjoyable (I much preferred gliding to power when I had the time to glide).
Specifically, flying schools who fly continuous circuits need to look to the future & think strategically about their survival in this crazy NIMBY age & land in which we live. I stress - as a lifelong aviation enthusiast & pilot, I DON'T disagree with your sentiments - but I have to be realistic (or give up and migrate, which I've tried to do but Mrs Poet has flatly refused to go (cue jokes & comments....my wife says she'll leave me if I go flying tomorrow...sure gonna miss her...).
Genghis, thanks, good info (better than mine!).
But ref. your point on the CAA - Maybe the lobbying should be for the CAA to start thinking pro-aviation for a change and to encourage environmental awareness - e.g. they are so keen on advice pamphlets on all sorts of stuff, why not an advice pmphlet on being environmentally conscious.... otherwise their GA office may have no work to do in a few years time.
Kermie - Ideal world situation is what you describe. Sorry, that doesn't happen here, like it or not, airfields and strips are constantly under threat with noise often cited as the reason. People move to areas by airfields, then they start complaining.
We cannot stick our heads in the ground forever. Plus, our own flying may be more relaxing/enjoyable (I much preferred gliding to power when I had the time to glide).
Specifically, flying schools who fly continuous circuits need to look to the future & think strategically about their survival in this crazy NIMBY age & land in which we live. I stress - as a lifelong aviation enthusiast & pilot, I DON'T disagree with your sentiments - but I have to be realistic (or give up and migrate, which I've tried to do but Mrs Poet has flatly refused to go (cue jokes & comments....my wife says she'll leave me if I go flying tomorrow...sure gonna miss her...).
Genghis, thanks, good info (better than mine!).
But ref. your point on the CAA - Maybe the lobbying should be for the CAA to start thinking pro-aviation for a change and to encourage environmental awareness - e.g. they are so keen on advice pamphlets on all sorts of stuff, why not an advice pmphlet on being environmentally conscious.... otherwise their GA office may have no work to do in a few years time.
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Niort
Posts: 1,235
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Unfortunately the situation with CAA approval of foreign silencers is not very straight forward. The CAA have claimed that foreign mods have caused changes in flight characteristics and so will not accept these mods unless they do a full regime of testing for which the unfortunate applicant will have to pay......
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: UK Work: London. Home: East Anglia
Posts: 306
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I find myself being very conscious of, and sometimes embarrassed by, the noise of the aircraft I fly. I'm a renter rather than an owner but if I had the choice would cheerfully pay a few quid more an hour for something nicely silenced -- not just to reduce risk of NIMBY action against the airfield I fly from, but also to improve the cockpit environment. I've seen a few (mainly D-registered) Pipers and Cessnas around with silencers and they really do make a difference. Various pre-war manufacturers managed it (DH for one) and it would be in the interests of ALL light aircraft designers / manufacturers to make available effective silencers, at least as factory options or retrofits, otherwise their markets will be at risk in the long term.
I hate to defend the CAA, but I've seen a few of these, and I don't think they're being totally unreasonable. It may not alter the handling, but a silencer will certainly alter the performance - now if the mod was flight tested overseas, that data should satisfy them. But, it's not unknown for some companies to refuse to release the flight test data - what would you do if you worked for CAA in that situation? The fact is that if the manufacturer of the mod wants to sell them in the UK, they've got to be prepared to release their data to the CAA.
Incidentally, the CAA's mandate is to regulate aviation. The FAA's is to regulate and encourage - a big difference. If you want that changing, write to your MP, it's the government who set that policy, not the Gnomes of Gatwick.
G
Incidentally, the CAA's mandate is to regulate aviation. The FAA's is to regulate and encourage - a big difference. If you want that changing, write to your MP, it's the government who set that policy, not the Gnomes of Gatwick.
G
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: UK Work: London. Home: East Anglia
Posts: 306
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
There's also a lot that we as pilots can do to help ourselves. I thought this article by Rick Durden, over at AVWEB, was well written and thought provoking.
<a href="http://www.avweb.com/articles/lounge/tpl0043.html" target="_blank">http://www.avweb.com/articles/lounge/tpl0043.html</a>
<a href="http://www.avweb.com/articles/lounge/tpl0043.html" target="_blank">http://www.avweb.com/articles/lounge/tpl0043.html</a>
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: London
Posts: 43
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
the issues of getting silencers approved could be a lot easier now that the CAA has changed the procedures for major mods. If you look on hteir website there is a press notice detailing the change.
don't forget they also have to work on a full cost recovery basis unlike many other regulatory authorities elsewhere in the world who are run on tax payers money.
don't forget they also have to work on a full cost recovery basis unlike many other regulatory authorities elsewhere in the world who are run on tax payers money.
