Recovering expenses owed for a ferry flight
I keep looking at this and seeing more and more complexities in the problem.
Ultimately, it strikes me that the hypothetical ferry pilot failed to properly go into this with their eyes open concerning weather, delays and paperwork, whilst the hypothetical aircraft owner failed to properly ensure the aeroplane was fit for ferry, that there was enough time to do it, and possibly that the ferry pilot was experienced enough to handle a job like this.
One now is out of pocket by several hundred pounds, whilst the other has an aeroplane stuck in the back of beyond needing a CofA renewal and ferry, which are between them probably going to cost thousands.
On the whole, I think that both have screwed up and probably need to accept the costs and lessons with good grace. Involving legal process is unlikely to do more than create more ill-will than exists already.
G
Ultimately, it strikes me that the hypothetical ferry pilot failed to properly go into this with their eyes open concerning weather, delays and paperwork, whilst the hypothetical aircraft owner failed to properly ensure the aeroplane was fit for ferry, that there was enough time to do it, and possibly that the ferry pilot was experienced enough to handle a job like this.
One now is out of pocket by several hundred pounds, whilst the other has an aeroplane stuck in the back of beyond needing a CofA renewal and ferry, which are between them probably going to cost thousands.
On the whole, I think that both have screwed up and probably need to accept the costs and lessons with good grace. Involving legal process is unlikely to do more than create more ill-will than exists already.
G
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It is not uncommon for me to be asked to ferry an aircraft with a CofA about to expire, often an owner will want me to ferry it for maintenance. I have frequently had to ferry aircraft with expired CofA where we have had to gain a ferry permit from the CAA to undertake the trip. A large bulk of my ferry flying has been such work for maintenance companies and their clients.
So I would see no issue in taking on a ferry flight with 3 days left to run on a CofA. However due diligence would ensure that I asked all those questions and knew the score before I removed my arse from chair.
As I have said before, an experienced ferry pilot knows the score, a naive person will easily find themselves in a sticky spot. In my experience the naive are usually the ones doing a ferry flight for some 'free' flying, usually a PPL.
We still have not had answer if this was a PPL or a CPL ferry pilot.
But as we all know, there is nothing free in life.......
So I would see no issue in taking on a ferry flight with 3 days left to run on a CofA. However due diligence would ensure that I asked all those questions and knew the score before I removed my arse from chair.
As I have said before, an experienced ferry pilot knows the score, a naive person will easily find themselves in a sticky spot. In my experience the naive are usually the ones doing a ferry flight for some 'free' flying, usually a PPL.
We still have not had answer if this was a PPL or a CPL ferry pilot.
But as we all know, there is nothing free in life.......
niknak
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Use the Small Claims Court.
You cannot take the aircraft or detain it under any circumstances other than obtaining a court order and ensuring that it is correctly served.
Whatever you do, get proper legal advice, there are plenty of no win -no fee solicitors out there who will advise you where you stand, get it wrong and you are the one who will have the problems.
You cannot take the aircraft or detain it under any circumstances other than obtaining a court order and ensuring that it is correctly served.
Whatever you do, get proper legal advice, there are plenty of no win -no fee solicitors out there who will advise you where you stand, get it wrong and you are the one who will have the problems.
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It's only worth taking someone to court if they have the means to pay you, or you can get a court appointed bailiff to seize goods with enough value to cover the debt.
If you win this, I suspect you'd be better off if the bailiff chooses to take his TV, his car or his gold rings. Those items are easier sold than an aeroplane that isn't fit to fly and can't be transported without a lot of paperwork, which your average run of the mill court appointed bailiff isn't equipped to deal with.
Forget the plane and just think about the money. If you win your case, the court appointed bailiff will do as he sees fit to recover the amount ordered.
If you win this, I suspect you'd be better off if the bailiff chooses to take his TV, his car or his gold rings. Those items are easier sold than an aeroplane that isn't fit to fly and can't be transported without a lot of paperwork, which your average run of the mill court appointed bailiff isn't equipped to deal with.
Forget the plane and just think about the money. If you win your case, the court appointed bailiff will do as he sees fit to recover the amount ordered.
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Interesting one needs a court order to detain a plane. Somebody should tell the French that; they will detain a plane for alleged non-payment of EU-import VAT 20 years ago. It is also quite common for maintenance companies to hold onto a plane until the owner has paid the bill.
niknak
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they will detain a plane for alleged non-payment of EU-import VAT 20 years ago.
It is also quite common for maintenance companies to hold onto a plane until the owner has paid the bill.
It is also quite common for maintenance companies to hold onto a plane until the owner has paid the bill.
I think throughout the EU, a debt incurred stays with the aeroplane. I am pretty sure that this legislation was bought in to prevent unscrupulous owners leasing out an aeroplane, incurring the debt then claiming that the current operator owes the money, or vice versa.
Equally, no one in their right mind is going to release an aeroplane from maintenance unless they have been paid or suitable arrangements are in force.
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In the UK, It's the case that a repairer or supplier who has custody of goods , has a legal hold on the goods ,called a LIEN.
Often invoked by motor -traders as "no cash -no car"....but once the goods are released to the "proper" owner, the lien is forfeit and the outstanding debt has to be chased in the normal way.
This rules out any sort of revenge -flying or impounding.
In the OP's position, I would notify the owner that if the bill for outstanding expenses is not reimbursed within 14 days , i will start legal action for recovery.
As other posters have said, the process is cheap (County court will send you a complete DIY pack of leaflets and forms....send them in , together with GOOD photocopies of any paperwork/receipts (enlarged/higlighted where needed ) send with the plaint-fee
sit and wait for the other side to cough-up or appear at court.
Under small-claims procedures, NO legal-representatives expenses are recoverable,but plaint-fees are automatically the loser's tab,as are expert's reports , (a strict limit of ~ £120 applies to the reports)
Unlike a Criminal case, the judge rules on the balance of probabilities, not the absolute.
In the OP's case, he claims that the defendant asked him to do something for which he would reimburse out of pocket expenseshe Plaintiff was unable to complete the job,as he had not been informed of important issues which affected the completion within the allotted timeframe.
It is reasonable to expect that both an aircraft -owner and a licensed pilot would be well-aware of the legal requirements and the safety-issues that prudent aviation dictates. It is therefore reasonable to expect that the owner would only ask for this work if the aircraft was fit for purpose.....it wasn't and that only became apparent to the plaintiff AFTER he'd spent money getting to the job and getting the A/C ready for flight, and finding the airworthiness-cert. due to lapse.
IMHO, he should win and get his dosh
Often invoked by motor -traders as "no cash -no car"....but once the goods are released to the "proper" owner, the lien is forfeit and the outstanding debt has to be chased in the normal way.
This rules out any sort of revenge -flying or impounding.
In the OP's position, I would notify the owner that if the bill for outstanding expenses is not reimbursed within 14 days , i will start legal action for recovery.
As other posters have said, the process is cheap (County court will send you a complete DIY pack of leaflets and forms....send them in , together with GOOD photocopies of any paperwork/receipts (enlarged/higlighted where needed ) send with the plaint-fee
sit and wait for the other side to cough-up or appear at court.
Under small-claims procedures, NO legal-representatives expenses are recoverable,but plaint-fees are automatically the loser's tab,as are expert's reports , (a strict limit of ~ £120 applies to the reports)
Unlike a Criminal case, the judge rules on the balance of probabilities, not the absolute.
In the OP's case, he claims that the defendant asked him to do something for which he would reimburse out of pocket expenseshe Plaintiff was unable to complete the job,as he had not been informed of important issues which affected the completion within the allotted timeframe.
It is reasonable to expect that both an aircraft -owner and a licensed pilot would be well-aware of the legal requirements and the safety-issues that prudent aviation dictates. It is therefore reasonable to expect that the owner would only ask for this work if the aircraft was fit for purpose.....it wasn't and that only became apparent to the plaintiff AFTER he'd spent money getting to the job and getting the A/C ready for flight, and finding the airworthiness-cert. due to lapse.
IMHO, he should win and get his dosh
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And of course, all the sage advice about how to get even, get yer money etc. But still no confirmation if the pilot in thus 'hypothetical' situation holds a CPL and is entitled to any form of payment......
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IMHO, he should win and get his dosh
There was no contract so the owner could quite happily say that the pilot agreed to do the ferry for experience, at his own cost etc accepting his own airline ticket, hotels, food etc..
Not all owners know much about aviation. They would agree a price with a ferry company who would then handle everything and would liase with the maintenance unit on the other side of the pond or even have a full pre buy inspection. That would also involve arranging ferry equiptment, checking all the paperwork etc etc etc.
You dont just turn up as if your renting the aircraft for a few circuits on a sunny sunday and then be surprised that some checks are due.
Someone has been very negligent!
It is also normal to have a float of cash to pay for in the field items.
Maybe he should win and get his dosh but I wouldnt count on it. No contract No Cash and your asking for trouble relying on the integrity of the owner.
I dont say that from a position of superiority as have been there, done that, worn the T shirt. He may have to put it down to experience to learn from in the future but best of luck!
If the guy was only a PPL how could he claim payment or even dispute whether his costs were to be covered as then the whole thing becomes a jolly rather than a job of work.
Pace
Last edited by Pace; 22nd Jul 2010 at 22:17.
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In the UK I don't believe expenses such as these are clearly allowed or not allowed.
I am virtually certain that if the owner/operator is paying landing fees, fuel, etc directly then the pilot doesn't need a CPL and the flight is private (i.e. anyone can fly a friends plane with them picking up the tab).
I think it is less clear if the pilot pays the bills and is reimbursed for them.
It is considerably less clear (to the extent I believe this is the line that requires a CPL) if the pilot invoices the above costs back to a 'customer' (i.e. a contract for service has been made)
It is even less clear if these costs include costs not directly related to the flight (i.e. travel to and from the aircraft, hotel bills, etc).
And is definitely CPL territory if the expenses include reimbursement for the pilot's time.
I am virtually certain that if the owner/operator is paying landing fees, fuel, etc directly then the pilot doesn't need a CPL and the flight is private (i.e. anyone can fly a friends plane with them picking up the tab).
I think it is less clear if the pilot pays the bills and is reimbursed for them.
It is considerably less clear (to the extent I believe this is the line that requires a CPL) if the pilot invoices the above costs back to a 'customer' (i.e. a contract for service has been made)
It is even less clear if these costs include costs not directly related to the flight (i.e. travel to and from the aircraft, hotel bills, etc).
And is definitely CPL territory if the expenses include reimbursement for the pilot's time.
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If I free-issue a plane to a pilot who can just fly it without spending a penny, then AIUI he can fly it on a PPL.
So, "ferrying" could be done on that basis.
After all, "ferrying" is just re-positioning, and there is plenty of this going on on the flying school scene, where a school gets its servicing done at an airfield different to where they are based, and they get PPLs (usually ex students) to do the moving.
In practice, with a real long distance ferry job, things are likely to be a lot more complicated because the "ferry pilot" is going to incur expenses which he needs to recover. It should still be OK though.
I think this is a grey area which has never been legally tested. All indications are that the CAA is not interested in testing it, because even one lost case would open the floodgates to all kinds of inventive charter schemes, and that is their real interest: keeping a lid on illegal ops which need an AOC. Below the AOC level, they don't seem to be interested. What is more relevant is the insurance angle...
So, "ferrying" could be done on that basis.
After all, "ferrying" is just re-positioning, and there is plenty of this going on on the flying school scene, where a school gets its servicing done at an airfield different to where they are based, and they get PPLs (usually ex students) to do the moving.
In practice, with a real long distance ferry job, things are likely to be a lot more complicated because the "ferry pilot" is going to incur expenses which he needs to recover. It should still be OK though.
I think this is a grey area which has never been legally tested. All indications are that the CAA is not interested in testing it, because even one lost case would open the floodgates to all kinds of inventive charter schemes, and that is their real interest: keeping a lid on illegal ops which need an AOC. Below the AOC level, they don't seem to be interested. What is more relevant is the insurance angle...
In the UK I don't believe expenses such as these are clearly allowed or not allowed.
I am virtually certain that if the owner/operator is paying landing fees, fuel, etc directly then the pilot doesn't need a CPL and the flight is private (i.e. anyone can fly a friends plane with them picking up the tab).
I think it is less clear if the pilot pays the bills and is reimbursed for them.
It is considerably less clear (to the extent I believe this is the line that requires a CPL) if the pilot invoices the above costs back to a 'customer' (i.e. a contract for service has been made)
It is even less clear if these costs include costs not directly related to the flight (i.e. travel to and from the aircraft, hotel bills, etc).
And is definitely CPL territory if the expenses include reimbursement for the pilot's time.
I am virtually certain that if the owner/operator is paying landing fees, fuel, etc directly then the pilot doesn't need a CPL and the flight is private (i.e. anyone can fly a friends plane with them picking up the tab).
I think it is less clear if the pilot pays the bills and is reimbursed for them.
It is considerably less clear (to the extent I believe this is the line that requires a CPL) if the pilot invoices the above costs back to a 'customer' (i.e. a contract for service has been made)
It is even less clear if these costs include costs not directly related to the flight (i.e. travel to and from the aircraft, hotel bills, etc).
And is definitely CPL territory if the expenses include reimbursement for the pilot's time.
When I was dealing with a lot of permit to fly check flights by PPLs I had a long discussion with CAA about payment for that. CAA were very clear that expenses were allowable at whatever rate would have been accepted by the Inland Revenue (now HMRC) as not incurring any tax: this included travel, meals and accomodation, but that the moment that it strayed into territory where it might potentially appear on a tax return, it became income and required a CPL.
I can't see why ferrying should be any different.
G
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the moment that it strayed into territory where it might potentially appear on a tax return, it became income and required a CPL.
I could earn a pile of money and not have to tax return it.
