IFR in VMC with new IMC
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: France
Posts: 610
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Icing in strataform cloud
Johnm:
In the past I did a lot of cloud seeding for rain making experiments, so had to deal with lots of icing problems.
Seeding strata form cloud at the minus 5 degree C level, icing was often a major concern. The key to success was the relationship of the temperature at the the lowest safe altitude to the freezing level. If they both coincided, you should not be there.
Regards and remember that we all had to learn, to become experienced.
Tmb
In the past I did a lot of cloud seeding for rain making experiments, so had to deal with lots of icing problems.
Seeding strata form cloud at the minus 5 degree C level, icing was often a major concern. The key to success was the relationship of the temperature at the the lowest safe altitude to the freezing level. If they both coincided, you should not be there.
Regards and remember that we all had to learn, to become experienced.
Tmb
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: In the boot of my car!
Posts: 5,982
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
10540
I did not see anything in the article which states he didnt have an oxygen bottle on board.
Remeember the FAA say up to 12500 unlimited, to 14000 for 30 minutes above 14000 oxygen all the time and 15000 passengers on oxygen.
His biggest problem was using an aircraft which was not up to the job although compared to other non deiced /anti iced single pistons the Trinidad appears to carry ice well.
I never fly any trip without an "out" in the one above I knew if i dropped to 6000 feet the ice would come off but because of severe storms to the north and a dickie radar IMC below freezing wasnt a safe option to get to Inverness but a descent and alternative into Glasgow was and was always open to me.
The prop deice failure was a failure! the ice hitting the prop was a one in a million.
Some of us fly because we have to (within reason) others of us fly because we dont have to.
Pace
I did not see anything in the article which states he didnt have an oxygen bottle on board.
Remeember the FAA say up to 12500 unlimited, to 14000 for 30 minutes above 14000 oxygen all the time and 15000 passengers on oxygen.
His biggest problem was using an aircraft which was not up to the job although compared to other non deiced /anti iced single pistons the Trinidad appears to carry ice well.
I never fly any trip without an "out" in the one above I knew if i dropped to 6000 feet the ice would come off but because of severe storms to the north and a dickie radar IMC below freezing wasnt a safe option to get to Inverness but a descent and alternative into Glasgow was and was always open to me.
The prop deice failure was a failure! the ice hitting the prop was a one in a million.
Some of us fly because we have to (within reason) others of us fly because we dont have to.
Pace
Last edited by Pace; 2nd Dec 2009 at 16:21.
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: EuroGA.org
Posts: 13,787
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Pace
That 'confession' was originally posted on the Socata user group site; a few years ago. A long thread followed and he confirmed he had no o2. He then changed his story a little (when the 12.5k/14k/30mins rule was mentioned) and it was possible he was just within the 14k/30mins rule. But how daft to do an altitude flight like that, without o2.
I don't think he is stupid. The problem is that PPL training is still stuck in the Middle Ages, but aircraft capability has moved on in the past 50 years.
IMHO he was obviously hypoxic but he was adamant (in the later discussion) that he wasn't.
I think a non-deiced TB20 is up to any job within its operating ceiling, so long as prolonged icing conditions are avoided. I have been straight over the Alps at FL190 - in VMC.
The gotcha is when people see IMC ahead (one can hardly miss it), see that they won't be able to out-climb it, and just carry on into it, fingers crossed. It's OK for the odd bit but not when one could be in it for hours. I think that story is a good example of this, of an occassion where somebody very nearly didn't get away with it.
That 'confession' was originally posted on the Socata user group site; a few years ago. A long thread followed and he confirmed he had no o2. He then changed his story a little (when the 12.5k/14k/30mins rule was mentioned) and it was possible he was just within the 14k/30mins rule. But how daft to do an altitude flight like that, without o2.
I don't think he is stupid. The problem is that PPL training is still stuck in the Middle Ages, but aircraft capability has moved on in the past 50 years.
IMHO he was obviously hypoxic but he was adamant (in the later discussion) that he wasn't.
I think a non-deiced TB20 is up to any job within its operating ceiling, so long as prolonged icing conditions are avoided. I have been straight over the Alps at FL190 - in VMC.
The gotcha is when people see IMC ahead (one can hardly miss it), see that they won't be able to out-climb it, and just carry on into it, fingers crossed. It's OK for the odd bit but not when one could be in it for hours. I think that story is a good example of this, of an occassion where somebody very nearly didn't get away with it.
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Who can say?
Posts: 1,700
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
IMHO he was obviously hypoxic but he was adamant (in the later discussion) that he wasn't.
But on the subject of the thread, a golden rule I have obeyed for quite some time in aviation, and in all circumstances, is:-
NEVER allow your options available to reduce to a total of one.
If you find yourself in icing conditions, particularly in something like a PA28, you need to be able to get out of it. You need to be able to climb out of it, or descend out of it, or turn round back the way you came. If any of those options is your only one, you are in deep doodoo.
In illustration, I was once operating a police flight on surveillance at night. Our local base was open H24, and clear. Other regional airports closed at 22:00. After that time, I was listening to the Volmets. One major airport shut through fog, and another, nearer us, was heading the same way. As soon as that one was down to minima, I announced to the police crew that I was pulling off the job. They were outraged - we were on an important job, our home airport was still open, etc. etc. I ignored the protests and went straight home. We landed in good vis, but by the time we had parked up and were leaving the aircraft, we couldn't see the other side of the airfield.
To sum up, ALWAYS leave yourself a bolthole - ALWAYS have a Plan "B" - ALWAYS have a usable diversion airfield.
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: EuroGA.org
Posts: 13,787
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Yes, fair enough, though it depends on what exactly those "two" options are...
Having two airports always in reach is obviously a good idea. Doable, assuming a functioning plane.
But there are scenarios in SE flight when an engine failure is not going to leave you with two options.
Having two airports always in reach is obviously a good idea. Doable, assuming a functioning plane.
But there are scenarios in SE flight when an engine failure is not going to leave you with two options.
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Who can say?
Posts: 1,700
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Agreed 100%.
So my answer to the OP would be never, NEVER fly into known or likely icing conditions in an aircraft such as a PA28. Don't EVER do it in something like a Seneca, either. In fact, don't EVER do it in anything unless it is specifically cleared for flight into known icing.
And if, inadvertantly, in icing conditions, get TF out - a.s.a.p. And descent is the best way. You should know where the 0 deg level is, and should know where the high ground is, and should know where the cloudbase is. What you almost certainly DON'T know is where the tops are and whether you can get out on top.
I've been in icing conditions in a totally unprotected TB9. One NAV/COM, one ADF, no pitot heat, no nothing else.
It wasn't fun. We lost all comms, lost all pitot/static info, managed to carry out a v. limited panel 180 and descent, fell out of the bottom of the cloud in a little ball of ice.
So my answer to the OP would be never, NEVER fly into known or likely icing conditions in an aircraft such as a PA28. Don't EVER do it in something like a Seneca, either. In fact, don't EVER do it in anything unless it is specifically cleared for flight into known icing.
And if, inadvertantly, in icing conditions, get TF out - a.s.a.p. And descent is the best way. You should know where the 0 deg level is, and should know where the high ground is, and should know where the cloudbase is. What you almost certainly DON'T know is where the tops are and whether you can get out on top.
I've been in icing conditions in a totally unprotected TB9. One NAV/COM, one ADF, no pitot heat, no nothing else.
It wasn't fun. We lost all comms, lost all pitot/static info, managed to carry out a v. limited panel 180 and descent, fell out of the bottom of the cloud in a little ball of ice.
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: EuroGA.org
Posts: 13,787
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Here I must disagree with advice so categorical. Risk management in flying is not so black and white.
How do you define "known icing"?
1) Any cloud below 0C?
2) Any prolonged IMC below 0C?
3) Hours of enroute IMC below 0C?
4) KNown IMC with forecast embedded CBs, below 0C?
5) A forecast of "icing conditions" (such as is permanently a - useless - feature of F215)?
This stuff has been done to death in FAA-land.
Anyway, the risk depends on escape routes. If terrain is 1000ft, 0C is at 5000ft, and you want to penetrate a visibly thin stratus layer (plenty of blue-sky holes so probably no thicker than 2000ft) whose base is 5000ft, why not? The worst that can happen is that when you see ice building up, you descend into warm air, continue the flight / go back home / etc.
Senecas can be FIKI cert. Plenty of them have been used for quasi commercial work like mail delivery to remote areas, with inches of ice hanging off... Not my taste in planes but a Seneca is reasonably capable. A turbo Seneca with eletric props and boots is a lot more capable than my TB20.
Unless you launched into a totally uniform-colour sky (e.g. warm front conditions) you will have a pretty good idea of the tops - a few thousand feet above. Not much use to a UK IMCR holder (due to typical Class A bases) but I am picking holes in the generality of the above statement.
That was dumb. Why did you do it?
The PIC on that flight was dumb.
A duff pitot heat is a no-go item at any time. Below about +5C one can get significant speedo errors, if unheated.
It gets better though. If the pitot heat doesn't work, why not? Is it because the cable is broken? It goes past the fuel tank. I would never fly with any electrical defect that involves wiring in the wings, no matter how irrelevant it might appear. I trained in PA38s with defects like that - operated by an AOC holder no less so obviously this was OK.....
So that isn't a great example
My suggestion would be to understand the risks, understand escape route planning, and manage the flight so as to keep the exit routes open.
An IR helps a lot because it removes airspace class issues - climb is limited by a/c performance only. One picks a day on which the weather in the terminal areas is OK, and that leaves the enroute section to deal with, and since you are in VMC you can see 50-100nm ahead and you ain't going to accidentally fly into icing conditions or anything else.
Winter flight in the UK remains a problem, because if the 0C level is on the deck, one will have to land with any ice collected, which is a bad idea if not de-iced. Not being able to do a lot in bad winter weather is the price one pays for not having a jet and an IR
Finally, FIKI doesn't mean a lot. My TB20 can be FIKI on G-reg but not on N-reg. Is this because icing is different with "N" on the side? No; it is because the FAA wants two alternators and some other stuff (it's a TKS system). But the raw mission capability v. ice of the two examples is exactly the same.
So my answer to the OP would be never, NEVER fly into known or likely icing conditions in an aircraft such as a PA28.
1) Any cloud below 0C?
2) Any prolonged IMC below 0C?
3) Hours of enroute IMC below 0C?
4) KNown IMC with forecast embedded CBs, below 0C?
5) A forecast of "icing conditions" (such as is permanently a - useless - feature of F215)?
This stuff has been done to death in FAA-land.
Anyway, the risk depends on escape routes. If terrain is 1000ft, 0C is at 5000ft, and you want to penetrate a visibly thin stratus layer (plenty of blue-sky holes so probably no thicker than 2000ft) whose base is 5000ft, why not? The worst that can happen is that when you see ice building up, you descend into warm air, continue the flight / go back home / etc.
Don't EVER do it in something like a Seneca, either. In fact, don't EVER do it in anything unless it is specifically cleared for flight into known icing.
And if, inadvertantly, in icing conditions, get TF out - a.s.a.p. And descent is the best way. You should know where the 0 deg level is, and should know where the high ground is, and should know where the cloudbase is. What you almost certainly DON'T know is where the tops are and whether you can get out on top.
I've been in icing conditions in a totally unprotected TB9. One NAV/COM, one ADF, no pitot heat, no nothing else.
It wasn't fun. We lost all comms, lost all pitot/static info, managed to carry out a v. limited panel 180 and descent, fell out of the bottom of the cloud in a little ball of ice
A duff pitot heat is a no-go item at any time. Below about +5C one can get significant speedo errors, if unheated.
It gets better though. If the pitot heat doesn't work, why not? Is it because the cable is broken? It goes past the fuel tank. I would never fly with any electrical defect that involves wiring in the wings, no matter how irrelevant it might appear. I trained in PA38s with defects like that - operated by an AOC holder no less so obviously this was OK.....
So that isn't a great example
My suggestion would be to understand the risks, understand escape route planning, and manage the flight so as to keep the exit routes open.
An IR helps a lot because it removes airspace class issues - climb is limited by a/c performance only. One picks a day on which the weather in the terminal areas is OK, and that leaves the enroute section to deal with, and since you are in VMC you can see 50-100nm ahead and you ain't going to accidentally fly into icing conditions or anything else.
Winter flight in the UK remains a problem, because if the 0C level is on the deck, one will have to land with any ice collected, which is a bad idea if not de-iced. Not being able to do a lot in bad winter weather is the price one pays for not having a jet and an IR
Finally, FIKI doesn't mean a lot. My TB20 can be FIKI on G-reg but not on N-reg. Is this because icing is different with "N" on the side? No; it is because the FAA wants two alternators and some other stuff (it's a TKS system). But the raw mission capability v. ice of the two examples is exactly the same.
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: London
Age: 68
Posts: 1,269
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Thx IO !
Yes, a turbo Seneca with her old fashioned hershy bar wings, good boots, electric props and window de-ice is most certainly FIKI and handles ice well.
Light icing is not an issue, moderate icing can be and indeed always a minimum of 2 options to stay alive!
Yes, a turbo Seneca with her old fashioned hershy bar wings, good boots, electric props and window de-ice is most certainly FIKI and handles ice well.
Light icing is not an issue, moderate icing can be and indeed always a minimum of 2 options to stay alive!
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Who can say?
Posts: 1,700
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Sorry, IO - I didn't make it clear. There was no pitot heater on the aircraft. Not a case of an inop heater - it was never there in the first place.
I was a relatively new PPL/IMC/B. The other guy (when mentioning his name I always cross myself and hang out the garlic) was rather more experienced. I didn't know then quite how effing stupid he is. I am, at least, grateful that I learnt a few lessons from him - e.g. about not getting into a situation like that, but mostly about never trusting someone else with my money - the illegitimate son of a lady of the night....
I was a relatively new PPL/IMC/B. The other guy (when mentioning his name I always cross myself and hang out the garlic) was rather more experienced. I didn't know then quite how effing stupid he is. I am, at least, grateful that I learnt a few lessons from him - e.g. about not getting into a situation like that, but mostly about never trusting someone else with my money - the illegitimate son of a lady of the night....
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: dunmow essex
Age: 63
Posts: 18
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hi imtaylor, just pass my imc, so i now how you feel,i am treating my imc, the same as my ppl, just pushing a bit more with every flight,my 1st flights have just been imc to get on top(realy good fun)and a bit of imc to get down, with experirnce will do more,but as i only fly for fun,have no plans to fly soild imc in 0 temps, got to go to work the next day, all the best, have fun, ps think the imc course great,made me a better pilot in every way,should be my standard for every ppl
have fun, ps think the imc course great,made me a better pilot in every way,should be my standard for every ppl
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Humberside
Age: 58
Posts: 1,265
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
IFR in VMC with new IMC
Seems to be a few conflicting opinions regarding icing. The one common thing is if it causes concern then thats good because icing is a killer. Ice will accrete on an airframe in the temperature range of +2 to -20c. Although icing can occur outside this temperature range, it is very unlikely. The only physical limiting factor is -40. The type of icing encountered will depend on the temperature and the amount of moisture present. The more hazardous formations will occur in warmer air close to the freezing point.If your a novice and wish to climb through cloud to get vmc on top, you need to plan very carefully. The main thing to check is the freezing level. If you are likely to encounter cloud above the freezing level then to attempt to fly through cloud in a non de iced aircraft could well be suicidal. There is a big difference in flying in vmc with foggles
compared to flying in real ifr. Its probably worth highlighting the intended use for the IMC rating. To allow pilots to take off in conditions below vfr minima to allow pilots to fly into improving weather. It certainly wasnt designed as a license to go cloud chasing. I would suggest exercising extreme caution because when you get an ice induced tail stall when approaching to land, theres absolutely no room for error. If your carrying any amount of ice, and the surface temperatures are close to freezing, then its unlikely the ice will sublimate, there will probably be handling anomolies and if you have visible icing on the leading edges of the wing, there will be proportionately more on the elevator/stabilator.
compared to flying in real ifr. Its probably worth highlighting the intended use for the IMC rating. To allow pilots to take off in conditions below vfr minima to allow pilots to fly into improving weather. It certainly wasnt designed as a license to go cloud chasing. I would suggest exercising extreme caution because when you get an ice induced tail stall when approaching to land, theres absolutely no room for error. If your carrying any amount of ice, and the surface temperatures are close to freezing, then its unlikely the ice will sublimate, there will probably be handling anomolies and if you have visible icing on the leading edges of the wing, there will be proportionately more on the elevator/stabilator.
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: EuroGA.org
Posts: 13,787
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I am not sure that ice acceretion cares much whether one has an IMCR or an IR. The difference is that with an IMCR you generally cannot climb high enough (in the UK, usually Class A base being too low) whereas with an IR one has an enroute IFR clearance which totally ignores the airspace class and - subject to ATC climb restrictions - one can climb straight up to one's filed level, and to any level above that if necessary.
With an IR, the game becomes purely one of aircraft performance versus weather. It's a much safer way to fly, but one does have to understand both of these factors to a greater depth than if flying at low level.
That said, many flights can be done at low level, or even genuinely VFR, which would be unsafe at "IR" levels due to icing conditions or embedded nasties. In many cases a VFR flight is also much shorter (due to not flying SIDs/STARs).
The slightly perverse catch here is that in many places abroad one could be illegal if one flew at a low level because a Eurocontrol IFR flight plan cannot be filed at a low level, and a VFR flight transitioning into IMC will be illegal Your only way out is to ask for an IFR clearance and a climb - into the higher altitude conditions which you wanted to avoid in the first place...
With an IR, the game becomes purely one of aircraft performance versus weather. It's a much safer way to fly, but one does have to understand both of these factors to a greater depth than if flying at low level.
That said, many flights can be done at low level, or even genuinely VFR, which would be unsafe at "IR" levels due to icing conditions or embedded nasties. In many cases a VFR flight is also much shorter (due to not flying SIDs/STARs).
The slightly perverse catch here is that in many places abroad one could be illegal if one flew at a low level because a Eurocontrol IFR flight plan cannot be filed at a low level, and a VFR flight transitioning into IMC will be illegal
Your only way out is to ask for an IFR clearance and a climb - into the higher altitude conditions which you wanted to avoid in the first place...
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Corona, CA
Posts: 16
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Recenty got my IMC and part of a PA28 group based in Newcastle. Planning to go down to Chester this week but just nervous now about flying IFR above the clouds.
If you're above the clouds and not in visible moisture you won't build ice. It's that simple. Always have an out.
If you do build ice keep flying the plane! I hear pilots panic because a little ice has found a home on the airframe. Faced with the following three of us starting building ice same route and altitude.
If you're above the clouds and not in visible moisture you won't build ice. It's that simple. Always have an out.
If you do build ice keep flying the plane! I hear pilots panic because a little ice has found a home on the airframe. Faced with the following three of us starting building ice same route and altitude.
- Level 11,000
- Bases 9,000
- Freezing level 8,000
- MEA 4,000
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Humberside
Age: 58
Posts: 1,265
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
IFR in VMC with new IMC
Maybe the pilots behind had a healthier respect of the potentially deadly effects of airframe icing. Even a little ice can severely disrupt the airflow on the lift generating surfaces and if you see ice accreting on the leading edge of a wing, it will most certainly be accreting proportionately more on the tail. A lot of pilots in the cruise phase may well be on autopilot so anomalies in handling may be masked until it is too late. Ice accretions as little as medium grade sandpaper can increase drag by 25% thus making a higher angle of attack and power setting necessary to maintain the same airspeed. This will also increase stall speed. In severe icing, an aircraft could lose its aerodynamic properties in minutes.The example you quote puts you fairly close to the freezing level and this is the temperature range where the most hazardous formations are likely to occur ie at the warmer temperatures closer to freezing. It is in this temperature range where you would be most likely to encounter severe icing in cloud. Some aircraft seem to handle icing better than others but no two icing encounters should be considered the same. Just because an aircraft flew ok with icing on one occasion doesnt mean it will always do so. Icing is complex and each encounter is different. A comprehensive understanding of the subject is a must for any pilot who will fly without maintaining a visual reference to the surface.
Sub Judice Angel Lovegod
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: London
Posts: 2,456
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Dave,
There is a significant difference between having a healthy respect for ice and allowing it to spook you.
I suggest that you are both right. Allowing ice to form on a non-deiced airframe is a bad idea. However, if it does happen, it is the time for careful, considered thought about what should be done next, not to start thrashing around wildly for a bolt-hole.
It is remarkable how much ice an aircraft will carry and still fly (though that does depend on the excess power available). But if you land carrying ice you may possibly risk a tailplane stall, and if that happens the recovery is counter-intuitive, so requires careful preparation.
Incidentally, although you learn a lot more about icing on an IR course than IMCR, there is no shortage of study material the IMCR pilot can read about icing.
There is a significant difference between having a healthy respect for ice and allowing it to spook you.
I suggest that you are both right. Allowing ice to form on a non-deiced airframe is a bad idea. However, if it does happen, it is the time for careful, considered thought about what should be done next, not to start thrashing around wildly for a bolt-hole.
It is remarkable how much ice an aircraft will carry and still fly (though that does depend on the excess power available). But if you land carrying ice you may possibly risk a tailplane stall, and if that happens the recovery is counter-intuitive, so requires careful preparation.
Incidentally, although you learn a lot more about icing on an IR course than IMCR, there is no shortage of study material the IMCR pilot can read about icing.
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Corona, CA
Posts: 16
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Maybe the pilots behind had a healthier respect of the potentially deadly effects of airframe icing.
No, it sounded like they knew book stuff about ice but had never seen it before. They knew all the buzz words but were so shook up by the experience they went into panic mode over trace to light ice. No matter what happens one needs to be calm and fly the airplane.
Respect ice, try to stay out of it. If it happens it's not the end of the world. Simply go to your plan B. You do have a plan B?
Should one confess to ATC?
No, it sounded like they knew book stuff about ice but had never seen it before. They knew all the buzz words but were so shook up by the experience they went into panic mode over trace to light ice. No matter what happens one needs to be calm and fly the airplane.
Respect ice, try to stay out of it. If it happens it's not the end of the world. Simply go to your plan B. You do have a plan B?
Should one confess to ATC?
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: EuroGA.org
Posts: 13,787
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
No reason to be spooked because
Whether one would get IFR ATC service below 8000 is a European factor, but safety has to come first. However, is the MEA of 4k valid all the way to destination??? If not, a landing may have to be considered ASAP.
Who is "Dave"? I know some here know each other but many don't. I see that as one big plus of pprune - people are judged purely on the value (or otherwise) of what they contribute.
In the USA, I can see one might not because of the whole fuzzy FIKI issue and possible FAA enforcement. In Europe there is no known enforcement and I would not hesitate to say to ATC something like "request immediate descent due to icing" even though the more normal form would be "due weather" which I would use in e.g. Spain or Italy because much of their ATC speak poor English and may not understand "icing". Followed by a Pan call 20 seconds later if they don't respond, and later a Mayday and a descent.
- Freezing level 8,000
- MEA 4,000
Whether one would get IFR ATC service below 8000 is a European factor, but safety has to come first. However, is the MEA of 4k valid all the way to destination??? If not, a landing may have to be considered ASAP.
Who is "Dave"? I know some here know each other but many don't. I see that as one big plus of pprune - people are judged purely on the value (or otherwise) of what they contribute.
Should one confess to ATC?
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Humberside
Age: 58
Posts: 1,265
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
IFR in VMC with new IMC
Tim, I disagree, there are some exceptional and free courses available regarding this topic. Whilst I would never advocate a pilot to panic, I would definately subscribe to a pilot limiting his exposure to icing conditions. I am actually a commercial ferry pilot flying the North Atlantic routes so it was in my interest to learn all I could about icing and the exit strategies. Now its not always an option to be able to descend due to terrain etc but if in stratiform cloud and icing is encountered, a change of altitude of 3000ft will almost always take you out of icing, even if you remain in cloud.. Whilst this is good information to be aware of, you also need to know more as if the cloud was cumuliform, then the icing conditions could span many thousands of feet and climbing could be a bad option where as a change of lateral direction of around 5 miles would almost always take you out of icing conditions providing there wasnt a cluster. Again, a little bit of information can be a dangerous thing. If a pilot has all of the information, then he can make an educated decision. I am actually amazed how little is taught about icing even in the IR sylabbus as its one thing that when flying IFR you will definately at some point encounter. Without doubt, the best way to limit exposure to icing, is to plan thouroughly when on the ground. It may be possible to change your route slightly and dramatically reduce the risk. If there is a temperature inversion, the risk of running into supercooled liquid is significantly higher etc etc. If your route takes you along the windard side of a mountain range, then the air being lifted will be forced to cool quicker and represent a greater icing threat. Consider flying along the leeward side but of course account for mountain waves and turbulence on the leeward side. Let me add this you tube link of an instrument rated pilot flying a cessna caravan. This is what can happen when a pilot doesnt understand enough about icing. After the event, she even wanted to fly back into icing conditions, even after a near death experience. It really is an interesting bit of information.
YouTube - Aircraft Icing Near Disaster
YouTube - Aircraft Icing Near Disaster
Sub Judice Angel Lovegod
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: London
Posts: 2,456
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Who is "Dave"? I know some here know each other but many don't. I see that as one big plus of PPRuNe - people are judged purely on the value (or otherwise) of what they contribute.
I also think that it is easier to refrain from abuse if you can picture the real person you are addressing rather than a Secret Seven codename.
Dave,
As you know, I have also done my fair share of flying in icing conditions, and, as with all emergencies I still say that, unless the icing is severe, it is best to remain calm and consider the options carefully.
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Humberside
Age: 58
Posts: 1,265
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
IFR in VMC with new IMC
Hey Tim, I just read your response again, I thought your previous comment ended intimating there was a shortage of study material, I read there is a shortage instead of there is no shortage so my apologies there. That was the only thing I was disagreeing about. See what I mean about a little bit of knowledge now eh? lol
Regards
Dave
Regards
Dave