English Proficiency endorsement

[chopjock]

I have just found out a week ago I need an "English Proficiency" endorcement to my CAA and FAA piggyback Licence. Wow, none of these authorities wrote to inform me of this and so how was I supposed to know?, now I'm led to believe my licences are invalid with out these endorsements.

I've done a search but could someone clarify this please?. Am I breaking the law now by flying with out these endorsements.

[Whopity]

The English Proficiency endorsement is an ICAO requirement that was introduced in March 2008. You need it for any International Flight where you use radio. Get an Examiner to sign a Form SRG1199 http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/SRG1199.pdf or combine it with your SEP revalidation SRG1119 and send it to the CAA, they will replace your licence free of charge.
You do not need it to fly in the UK on your UK licence.
Details here:http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/1688/ICAO%...ght%20Crew.pdf Changing the FAA one is a little more complex.

[flybymike]

It is worth mentioning that a strict interpretation of the regulations requires that the level 6 endorsement is achievable only by means of a flight with an examiner and not simply by revalidation with an instructor. This typically crap CAA drafting means that since I only ever revalidate rather than renew, I am apparently stuck at four sixths English language proficiency for ever more.

[SNS3Guppy]

Wow, none of these authorities wrote to inform me of this and so how was I supposed to know?

You're responsible to keep current with the regulations regarding the certificates under which you operate. I can't speak for the CAA's publicity, but the FAA heavily publicized the need to obtain the new certificate with the English Proficiency endorsement. AOPA and other web groups did, and it was all over the press and internet for about a year or so, and for some time leading up to the requirement being put in place.

[BackPacker]

I have just found out a week ago I need an "English Proficiency" endorcement to my CAA and FAA piggyback Licence.

I don't know about you, but the CAA mailed me a letter (a fair while ago) explaining their interpretation of the legislation and the way they would be handling it.

You did keep the CAA informed of a change of address, did you?

since I only ever revalidate rather than renew, I am apparently stuck at four sixths English language proficiency for ever more.

I had the same sort of discussion with an instructor/examiner at our club. His counterpoint was very easy: to revalidate by experience, you need an instructional flight of at least an hour. To revalidate by test, you need to do the test but there's no minimum time set for that test. In practice, it's less than an hour if you are current.

So it's normally cheaper to revalidate by test than to revalidate by experience. And as a bonus you'll get the ICAO language proficiency 6 thrown in. (Assuming the examiner is certified as a 6 himself and you are fluent.)

But that's not all. If you are a level 4 right now, you need to do a test every three years. Since flight examiners are no language examiners, they are endorsed with the privilege of being able to assess whether someone is fluent (level 6) or not (lower than 6). But they are not able to distinguish between a 3, 4 or a 5. The result of all this is that if you're a 4 right now and you don't do anything about it, you'll even lose your language proficiency classification, and will not be able to operate a radio legally. Unless you sit a formal test at a language test facility.

[172driver]

Wow! There seems to be a whole load of variation to the procedures.

I hold both CAA (JAR) and FAA standalone licenses.

The CAA mailed me a new one with the Level 4 included w/o me doing anything. It simply arrived in the mail one day.

The FAA requirement was indeed heavily publicized and I applied for a new license online (!!) and received it within a couple of weeks.

So far, so good. What I have never, ever, heard of is this:

But that's not all. If you are a level 4 right now, you need to do a test every three years. Since flight examiners are no language examiners, they are endorsed with the privilege of being able to assess whether someone is fluent (level 6) or not (lower than 6). But they are not able to distinguish between a 3, 4 or a 5. The result of all this is that if you're a 4 right now and you don't do anything about it, you'll even lose your language proficiency classification, and will not be able to operate a radio legally. Unless you sit a formal test at a language test facility.

BackPacker, are you sure ?? Any reference ? And, if correct, does this apply to both CAA (JAR) and FAA ??

[mad_jock]

Makes you wonder as to how many actually open the FAR/AIM - or if it is only ever opened when the BFR is due.

You do your JAR PPL apply for your FAA ticket. Arrive off a flight from the UK next day if you are florida based you fly to MCO with an instructor to pick your ticket up. Get confused as hell with which runway your going for because the controller appears to have cleared you to land at the mid point on 1 in and there is still a 747 at 1 mile.

You go and pick your ticket up passing the manditory english test they apply of answering the question "Can I help you sir?" You then go back to the FBO and scoff popcorn while the instructor points at various bits of the chart and suggests that MCO and Miami are serious **** you better not go near them. And if you fly over the Everglades and have an engine failure you going to get eaten. Fly back to your base after your departure and remembering your arrival you decide the instructor wasn't joking and you don't speak spanish so there is no point going near miami anyway.

You arrive back at your base, your BFR is signed off and thats it for a 100 hours of hour building. FAR's never mentioned once. But then again this is the FL pilot factory (or was 6 years ago when I flew over there)

I can confirm it is true for JAR and how its already getting abused silly. Every single pilot I know who has done a LPC since the rules have come in has been given a level 6 tick. French, Begium, German, Swedish, Icelandic, Spanish you name it they will get the tick.

[BackPacker]

BackPacker, are you sure ?? Any reference ?

The references are the links posted by Whopity.

In short, the UK CAA decided to give everyone who ever passed the FRTOL test an initial ICAO level 4 when the whole episode started - the official start date being 5 March 2008.

An ICAO level 4 requires a re-test every three years. So if you don't get tested somehow before 5 March 2011 you'll lose the level 4 and thereby the FRTOL so you're not allowed to use the radio anymore.

So practically everyone will have to get tested somehow before 5 March 2011. If you are fluent in English you can do this on a flight test since an examiner, holding a level 6 him/herself, is deemed able to determine whether somebody else is a 6 too. Any flight test would work, including an LPC or a test for a new class/type rating. But it has to be a flight test according to the docs. If an examiner just signs your paperwork because you revalidated by experience, he/she can't, at that moment, check your language skills - or so it seems from the CAA docs.

The trouble comes when you're not completely fluent. In that case you've got to go to an appropriate language school and be tested periodically for a 4 (3 years validity) or 5 (6 years validity). Flight examiners are only authorized to issue you a 6 (which is valid for life), but if you do not qualify for a 6, they apparently can't tell you you're a 2, 3, 4 or 5.

If you look at the SRG 1187 form you'll find a new section 6 for the examiner to fill in. The only box he/she can tick is the "yes" or "no" box for level 6. Nothing else.

I can confirm it is true for JAR and how its already getting abused silly. Every single pilot I know who has done a LPC since the rules have come in has been given a level 6 tick. French, Begium, German, Swedish, Icelandic, Spanish you name it they will get the tick.

Actually some of the Dutch pilots I know have gotten fives. So they'll need to be retested in six years. In the Netherlands, a whole industry started around this testing thing. A typical test will cost you a full afternoon and a little over 100 euros. And of course they're not advertising the fact that a flight examiner is able to test you for a level 6 during an LPC. In fact, I just spent half an hour browsing the IVW site (the Dutch CAA) and could not find any reference to this - maybe it's a UK-only thing?

[Whopity]

An ICAO level 4 requires a re-test every three years. So if you don't get tested somehow before 5 March 2011 you'll lose the level 4 and thereby the FRTOL so you're not allowed to use the radio anymore.

You will not lose the FRTOL, that is a stand alone licence and is valid for its stated period and may be renewed simply by using it.
The privileges of a FRTOL are to operate radio equipment in any UK registered aircraft and oddly enough the holder of a FRTOL, who may not be a pilot or hold any other licence, does not require an English Language Proficiency Endorsement, only Pilots and Controllers require that!
ICAO | FLS | FAQs

Amendment 164 to Annex 1 has introduced strengthened language proficiency requirements for flight crew members and air traffic controllers. The language proficiency requirements apply to any language used for radiotelephony communications in international operations. Therefore, pilots on international flights shall demonstrate language proficiency in either English or the language used by the station on the ground. Controllers working on stations serving designated airports and routes used by international air services shall demonstrate language proficiency in English as well as in any other language(s) used by the station on the ground.

Are all members of the flight crew required to meet the language proficiency requirements?

All pilots shall meet the language proficiency requirements when they fly internationally.

The Level 4 is issued to UK pilots on the basis of holding a FRTOL and has been designated a "grandfather right" therefore; as long as you hold a valid FRTOL you must still have the grandfather right of Level 4. A grandfather right is a "right" and does not expire! A poorly conceived idea in the first place!

All of this is being taken too literally, a flight test is merely an opportunity for an examiner to determine who is and who isn't a fluent English speaker, but it really doesn't take a test to do that.

ICAO stopped recognising Flight Radio Telephony Operators as flight crew members some years ago; but what do Flight Engineers do?

[mad_jock]

Actually some of the Dutch pilots I know have gotten fives. So they'll need to be retested in six years. In the Netherlands, a whole industry started around this testing thing

Why doesn't that suprise me. The one nation in europe that as a whole seems to have a gift with languages, where second third and forth langages are not uncommon. All spoken to a very high level. I would really have zero problem with any of the Dutch or Scandi pilots I know getting grade 6. Some of the southern europeans leave alot to be desired.

There is also confusion about if that level 6 box, if no actually resets the level 4 time period. So all the TRE's I have been with have been ticking yes so that the company doesn't get shafted with having to send them off to get tested somewhere else.

[172driver]

Whopity, thanks for the links. Now, after having looked at all of them, I remain confused. You say

The Level 4 is issued to UK pilots on the basis of holding a FRTOL and has been designated a "grandfather right" therefore; as long as you hold a valid FRTOL you must still have the grandfather right of Level 4. A grandfather right is a "right" and does not expire!

Am I right in assuming that you mean that as long as one has no problem being classed at 'Level 4', this remains valid as long as the FRTOL remains valid? I.e. no re-test?

In addition, let's have a quick look at the FAA license. This is - as license - valid for life (BFRs and medicals notwithstanding) and has also 'Level 4' written on it. Again - no re-test ??

Anyone able to clarify??

[robin]

I do have to ask though why it is it can only be awarded at level 6 after a flight test.

I've just revalidated and the CFI/examiner who did the hour with me won't/can't sign it off, as it wasn't a test.

Is this our beloved CAA gold-plating again by not allowing the sign-off on the revalidation? And is anyone official pushing them to take a more pragmatic line.

I fly regularly and don't foresee the need for a flight test for some years.

[liam548]

Am I right in thinking that when my shiny new JAR PPL licence arrives on my doormat in a few days I will simply have basic english listed on it?

[englishal]

Well I can tell you right away that I am not going to fly with an examiner or go to an "English" school just to prove I can speak English. As someone who was born and bread in England, speaks fluent English, and has an FAA ticket which says I am English Proficient, then if they want me to jump through hoops I will, as I shove their FRTO licence up their arse!

Why can't the examiner just sign the Biennial "by experience" piece of paper and say I can speak English...or am I missing something

[172driver]

SoCal, thanks, I am aware of that, have complied (already last year) and am in possession of the lic..... err, certificate with the 'Level 4' on it. My question (and confusion) relates to the re-test brought up by BackPacker and mentioned in the ICAO document.

[BackPacker]

Well I can tell you right away that I am not going to fly with an examiner or go to an "English" school just to prove I can speak English. As someone who was born and bread in England, speaks fluent English, and has an FAA ticket which says I am English Proficient, then if they want me to jump through hoops I will, as I shove their FRTO licence up their arse!

I can't see why people are so worked up over this.

If you have ever heard flight crew from, say, Asian or Russian roots fly into Europe, you can only conclude that the general ICAO concept of requiring flight crew to speak English to a certain level is a good thing. I've even heard some appalling English from some French, German and -I hate to say this- Dutch private pilots.

Now most of the folks on this forum are native or near-native speakers of English and it's a bit daft for you (us?) guys to jump through a lot of hoops to prove you meet the requirements, as that's rather obvious in most cases. So both the CAA and FAA have issued virtually everyone a level 4, and put provisions in place to allow you to obtain a level 6 somewhere in the next three years with the minimum amount of hassle and with zero cost. But at the same time they've put a little safeguard in place to ensure that anybody who is not fluent in English, is identified for proper retesting.

I personally applaud the CAA for doing things this way and I don't see how they could have made this any easier for us, without giving up the ability to flag someone who is not fluent. Particularly if I compare it to the Dutch situation where -as it seems now- everyone is required to sit a one-afternoon, 100-euro exam.

Why can't the examiner just sign the Biennial "by experience" piece of paper and say I can speak English...or am I missing something

I don't know exactly why the CAA did not allow for this. Maybe because in case of a revalidation by experience, there is no need whatsoever to meet the examiner in person? I know a lot of places where, in case of a revalidation by experience, you just leave all paperwork at the front desk and the examiner will come round some day to sign & post it.

Am I right in thinking that when my shiny new JAR PPL licence arrives on my doormat in a few days I will simply have basic english listed on it?

If you have done your flight test after March 8, 2008 and you are fluent in English, then your examiner will have ticked the "yes" box on the 1119 form and your shiny new PPL should be endorsed as such.

[dublinpilot]

"...The FAA’s issuance of an “English Proficient” endorsement on a U.S. airman certificate attests that the airman meets the Level 4 operational standards found in ICAO Annex 1. All affected airmen have until March 5, 2009 to comply with this requirement.."
See this document.

SoCal,

Am I to understand you correctly that the FAA "English Proficient" only indicates level 4 has been achieved? (Level 4 is the minimum necessary to use English on the RT). If they are following the ICAO requirements, then level four must be renewed in 3 years. If they are ignoring ICAO requirements, then why bother with the "English Proficient" bit at all?

Are they simply buying themselves 3 years to deal with the issue, or is their something else going on?

dp

[172driver]

This is actually getting quite amusing - not.

There appear to be all sort of pitfalls.

Prompted by SoCal's comment I had a look at my FAA license (don't look at it all that often and he's are correct, it doesn't state the level). In doing so, I also had a quick glance at a recent Australian Certificate of Validation (CoV). And here it gets interesting: I validated my FAA license for some flying Down Under. So, on the CoV it states under 'Language Proficiency':

Proficient in English - Level 4
Date of assessment: XX/XX/2008 - the date my new FAA license was issued
Valid to date: XX/XX/2011 (!!!!!!)

So - firstly, how does CASA know I've got Level 4 if the FAA don't say so, secondly, if the FAA cert doesn't expire and there is no provision for a retest, why does it expire - an how does one extend it ??

For clarification, Australian CoVs are valid for three months. So - if I want to go flying in Oz again in 2011 after the lapse date what happens ?? Might well turn into a Catch22 situation - language proficiency expired, but you can't do a re-test, as no re-test required.

I know this is a bit of an exotic tangent, but one that can easily catch you out if you fly overseas on locally validated licenses.

[Fly-by-Wife]

born and bread in England, speaks fluent English,

You sure about that, englishal?

FBW

[Captain Stable]

Speaks it, but doesn't write it!