English Proficiency endorsement
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how does CASA know I've got Level 4 if the FAA don't say so
Didn't stop one FAA DPE from Florida though, who did a checkride on me a few years ago
I couldn't understand anything he said, and in the end he stormed out of the room.
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The ability to read, speak, write, and understand English is already a U.S. regulatory eligibility requirement in order to issue the certificate in the first instance. All the FAA are doing is now simply adding "English Proficient" to the certificate to keep ICAO happy.
why it is it can only be awarded at level 6 after a flight test.
I have been signing people off for English proficiency for over 5 years and as long as they are fluent in English I can see no need whatsoever for a flight test! RTF Examiners were the first people to be authorised to do it, many are not pilots, and don't conduct flight tests anyway.
A CAA licence does not state the Level, do you really think someone is going to take it away if you don't upgrade it? It really isn't an issue in an English speaking country, the CAA have just gone through the motions to show ICAO they are complying.
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A CAA licence does not state the Level, do you really think someone is going to take it away if you don't upgrade it? It really isn't an issue in an English speaking country, the CAA have just gone through the motions to show ICAO they are complying.
My IAA issued JAR licence, shows both the level and expiry date.
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I never said I could SPELL 
Is it though? I re-validate by experience, and never fly with a UK examiner. I meet the examiner at the Biennial "signing the bit of paper ceremony" so why can't he simply tick the box which says "yep, met him, he speaks English like a true brit, lets up him to 6". I have no intention of flying with a UK examiner for the foreseeable future either.
Typical Euro (for we are controlled by Europe now) bureaucracy b@llox. If it could be easy, lets make it difficult.
minimum amount of hassle and with zero cost.
Typical Euro (for we are controlled by Europe now) bureaucracy b@llox. If it could be easy, lets make it difficult.
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why can't he simply tick the box which says "yep, met him, he speaks English like a true brit, lets up him to 6".
ICAO requires a testing both in "conversational" English and "aviation English", or whatever the proper descriptions are.
When you meet an examiner outside a flight test, chances are that the only thing you'll use is conversational English. So unless he improvises a practical exam of aviation English of some sort (which is not his job at that point), he will not be able to judge your aviation English.
On the other hand, in a real-world flight test, no matter how short, you're going to have to use both conversational English and aviation English, so this ticks all the boxes.
Via the IVW site I stumbled upon this document:
http://www.ivw.nl/Images/ICAO%20Docu...247-214744.pdf
I haven't read through it all, but the early pages of chapter 2 made it quite clear, to me, why the LPE requirements have been put in place as they are.
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Having flown to some of the outer corners of Europe I can fully see why the ICAO EL requirements have come in, and not a day too soon.
The great majority of ATCOs outside the UK (and a few nearby countries) speak no conversational English so if you say something nonstandard like "experiencing freezing rain" they won't know what it is. Some will query it but quite a few (Spain is a good place for this) will pretend they didn't hear you, so nothing incriminating appears on the tape. Eventually you declare a Pan and do your own thing (avoiding weather etc) in the hope they can see you on radar (which they obviously can) and will issue any avoidance instructions to their Spanish speaking colleagues.
There have been many accidents due to poor English, and it is a fairly persistent problem in flying.
Unfortunately, all that seems to have happened (so far) is that the same people are doing the same jobs, while pilots who quite obviously can speak perfectly adequate conversational and aviation English are having a lot of hassle to get their paperwork updated. Who thinks that Spain will send all those ATCOs on an English course? Of course nothing will happen.
The great majority of ATCOs outside the UK (and a few nearby countries) speak no conversational English so if you say something nonstandard like "experiencing freezing rain" they won't know what it is. Some will query it but quite a few (Spain is a good place for this) will pretend they didn't hear you, so nothing incriminating appears on the tape. Eventually you declare a Pan and do your own thing (avoiding weather etc) in the hope they can see you on radar (which they obviously can) and will issue any avoidance instructions to their Spanish speaking colleagues.
There have been many accidents due to poor English, and it is a fairly persistent problem in flying.
Unfortunately, all that seems to have happened (so far) is that the same people are doing the same jobs, while pilots who quite obviously can speak perfectly adequate conversational and aviation English are having a lot of hassle to get their paperwork updated. Who thinks that Spain will send all those ATCOs on an English course? Of course nothing will happen.
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in - partial - defence of spanish ATCOs
Not saying you're wrong, IO540, but I fly quite a lot in Spain and the problem here lies somewhere else - namely in the necessity (don't quote me, but I think it's a legal requirement) to constantly switch between Spanish and English. I used to be an interpreter in a former life an trust me, this is tiring to put it mildly. Of course there are some people on the radio in Spain 9and France/Italy) who simply shouldn't be there, but in my experience that goes more for pilots than ATCOs.
Funnily enough, having flown in all sort of environments both around Europe and overseas, the biggest communication problems I ever had were - in the UK. Some northern accents are, at least to me, almost totally unintelligible.
Now donning hard hat and awaiting incoming....
Funnily enough, having flown in all sort of environments both around Europe and overseas, the biggest communication problems I ever had were - in the UK. Some northern accents are, at least to me, almost totally unintelligible.
Now donning hard hat and awaiting incoming....
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The first time I flew in the States I could barely understand a word they said - and yet they claim to speak English.
Last week I spoke to three different people in HSBCs call centre - they all claimed they could speak English but in the end I had to ask to be transferred to someone that did - and even then it was not much of an improvement.
Last week I spoke to three different people in HSBCs call centre - they all claimed they could speak English but in the end I had to ask to be transferred to someone that did - and even then it was not much of an improvement.
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My shiny new licence arrived this morning.
It does not state any kind of level only "remarks,
Language proficiency: English
and on the actual Flight Radiotelephony Operators licence part "remarks: VHF only".
Is this what it should say since it is a UK issued JAR-PPL.
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Yes, you're good to go.
Congratulations by the way.
(I do wonder about the fact that the UK CAA does not print proficiency levels & expiry dates for the language proficiency on the license. How would somebody, eg. on a ramp check, know whether your time is up or not? Right now nobody can tell from your license whether you're a 4 (grandfathered or teste) with a three-year retest regime, or a 5 with a six-year retest regime, or a 6 for life. I mean, everything else on your license that expires has an expiry date next to it, not?)
Congratulations by the way.
(I do wonder about the fact that the UK CAA does not print proficiency levels & expiry dates for the language proficiency on the license. How would somebody, eg. on a ramp check, know whether your time is up or not? Right now nobody can tell from your license whether you're a 4 (grandfathered or teste) with a three-year retest regime, or a 5 with a six-year retest regime, or a 6 for life. I mean, everything else on your license that expires has an expiry date next to it, not?)
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Backpacker I have actually been caught on this one on a ramp check and I was resigned to a heap of paper work and a 4 figure fine and the plane grounded until a Captain with the approprate bit of paper was positioned in.
Thankfully the inspector thought the whole thing was hilarious that a G reg aircraft with a fat scotsman Captain and said Captain wasn't qualified to speak English on the RT.
The caa wern't much bloody help taking 12 days to get another bit of paper out to me to make me legal. With a whole heap of of crap about security and addresses, the fact that somewhere in the postal system there is a ATPL license adrift with my details on it that never appeared on my door step 2 months prior to this doesn't seem to worry them. But we can't send another bit of paper to you without written permission. Thankfully XXXXXX CAA flight ops were crewed by current aircrew and engineers who do flight ops inspections 2-4 days a month meant that after a phone call I could continue to operate in there FIR with no hassels. If it was in France I would have been in the nick with the 4 figure fine.
Thankfully the inspector thought the whole thing was hilarious that a G reg aircraft with a fat scotsman Captain and said Captain wasn't qualified to speak English on the RT.
The caa wern't much bloody help taking 12 days to get another bit of paper out to me to make me legal. With a whole heap of of crap about security and addresses, the fact that somewhere in the postal system there is a ATPL license adrift with my details on it that never appeared on my door step 2 months prior to this doesn't seem to worry them. But we can't send another bit of paper to you without written permission. Thankfully XXXXXX CAA flight ops were crewed by current aircrew and engineers who do flight ops inspections 2-4 days a month meant that after a phone call I could continue to operate in there FIR with no hassels. If it was in France I would have been in the nick with the 4 figure fine.
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FAA English
Am I to understand you correctly that the FAA "English Proficient" only indicates level 4 has been achieved? (Level 4 is the minimum necessary to use English on the RT). If they are following the ICAO requirements, then level four must be renewed in 3 years. If they are ignoring ICAO requirements, then why bother with the "English Proficient" bit at all?
Are they simply buying themselves 3 years to deal with the issue, or is their something else going on?
Are they simply buying themselves 3 years to deal with the issue, or is their something else going on?
Kudos to FAA, they have implemented the English Proficiency requirements in the most economical and convenient way.
FAA is not ignoring ICAO requirement, FAA has met and superseded the ICAO requirements, only thing they haven't done is to introduce more paper-work.
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One cannot exercise the privileges of an FAA certificate unless one has a Biennial Flight Review (2 year). The flight review is conducted by a CFI, and he has to make sure that the pilot under review meets all the qualification requirements for exercising the privileges, English Proficiency is one of them.
Kudos to FAA, they have implemented the English Proficiency requirements in the most economical and convenient way.
FAA is not ignoring ICAO requirement, FAA has met and superseded the ICAO requirements, only thing they haven't done is to introduce more paper-work.
Kudos to FAA, they have implemented the English Proficiency requirements in the most economical and convenient way.
FAA is not ignoring ICAO requirement, FAA has met and superseded the ICAO requirements, only thing they haven't done is to introduce more paper-work.
Thank you for pointing that out
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English Proficient Limitation
You are welcome.
Interestingly enough FAA puts the English Proficient Endorsement in limitations section of the Airman Certificate. My guess, may be FAA wants to say, language proficiency only checked for English, hence a proficiency become a limitations
.
And I am still waiting on how DGCA, India is going to implement it. I guess they will ask all pilots to fill in a form in triplicate, send it across to few agencies wait for an appointment, which comes after few weeks, and when you reach there, you find that 100 other pilots have same date and time for the appointment, chit chat with the pilot community for hours, and wait for the random chance to get evaluated.
Interestingly enough FAA puts the English Proficient Endorsement in limitations section of the Airman Certificate. My guess, may be FAA wants to say, language proficiency only checked for English, hence a proficiency become a limitations
.And I am still waiting on how DGCA, India is going to implement it. I guess they will ask all pilots to fill in a form in triplicate, send it across to few agencies wait for an appointment, which comes after few weeks, and when you reach there, you find that 100 other pilots have same date and time for the appointment, chit chat with the pilot community for hours, and wait for the random chance to get evaluated.
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I'm still confused. Regarding the JAA PPL.....
Can my English language be revalidated "by experience" at the same time as the examiner signs the paperwork?
Do I have to go to an english language school to take a test?
Do I have to do a flight test to revalidate it?
Will it "expire" and I will become invalid if I don't revaidate it?
If the answer is b or c then I am afraid I'm going to let it expire and never bother to get it revalidated.
Can my English language be revalidated "by experience" at the same time as the examiner signs the paperwork?
Do I have to go to an english language school to take a test?
Do I have to do a flight test to revalidate it?
Will it "expire" and I will become invalid if I don't revaidate it?
If the answer is b or c then I am afraid I'm going to let it expire and never bother to get it revalidated.