Cross channel check out!
If you're legal to fly over the Channel with the licence you hold. QED
A slab of French concrete is just as unforgiving as a slab of English concrete - or tarmac - if you smite it incorrectly, so if the owner is satisfied that you're not going to break his machine at Biggin Hill, what's the problem ?
If you make a cock-of it, it's your licence on the block, not the aircraft owner ( providing everything is up-to date and working ) so why should the aircraft owner worry about you if his aircraft and documents are fireproof - does he insist on a check flight into every airport that you are likely to use when you disappear over his horizon ?
Having said that -- it is his aeroplane, so he is entitled to demand anything he likes, you can put up with it or vote with your feet.
Slightly off thread but ...... as a new pilot / navigator I was sent to Honolulu to navigate 707's from San Fran. to Tokyo - GPS ? think sextant. The company navigators insisted on giving us a check-flight across the Pacific into Japan, partly to prove their own importance and partly to stay living in Hawaii to do the check flights, but when I arrived the duty Captain had sent them all home, I got a note to say that I had a UK Flt.Nav. licence that entitled me to navigate British reg'd aircraft anywhere in the World and I was rostered to Tokyo the next night - but suggesting that I had a word or two with my colleagues in the pub that evening ! Same difference.
Just do it, but do your homework too.
A slab of French concrete is just as unforgiving as a slab of English concrete - or tarmac - if you smite it incorrectly, so if the owner is satisfied that you're not going to break his machine at Biggin Hill, what's the problem ?
If you make a cock-of it, it's your licence on the block, not the aircraft owner ( providing everything is up-to date and working ) so why should the aircraft owner worry about you if his aircraft and documents are fireproof - does he insist on a check flight into every airport that you are likely to use when you disappear over his horizon ?
Having said that -- it is his aeroplane, so he is entitled to demand anything he likes, you can put up with it or vote with your feet.
Slightly off thread but ...... as a new pilot / navigator I was sent to Honolulu to navigate 707's from San Fran. to Tokyo - GPS ? think sextant. The company navigators insisted on giving us a check-flight across the Pacific into Japan, partly to prove their own importance and partly to stay living in Hawaii to do the check flights, but when I arrived the duty Captain had sent them all home, I got a note to say that I had a UK Flt.Nav. licence that entitled me to navigate British reg'd aircraft anywhere in the World and I was rostered to Tokyo the next night - but suggesting that I had a word or two with my colleagues in the pub that evening ! Same difference.
Just do it, but do your homework too.
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I wish people would stop calling it the Channel .. .. ..
it is the English Channel.
It is nothing more than a wide river, infact the Amazon is wider during the wet season. (Not many people know that
)
it is the English Channel.
It is nothing more than a wide river, infact the Amazon is wider during the wet season. (Not many people know that
)
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It takes something like 10-15 minutes to cross so hardly a major north Atlantic adventure
As there is a continuos stream of ferries trundling to and from they leave pretty white lines leading you there.
Just make sure you dont follow the ones running down the channel or you may make your day joint in Jersey or Amsterdam.
On good VFR days you will see the other side from the UK and it looks very close.
For the Newbie non instrument trained pilot avoid your first crossing on anything but the best days and remember you have to come back.
Return well clear of sunset so you can be found if the worst happens before you get flattened by one of the numerous ships charging through there.
Other than that its a piece of cake and smacks of money making by establishments who want special checkouts.
You may get checked out on a perfect day and end up doing it on your own not such a perfect day which will be as different as chalk from cheese anyway.
You will find the weather over the channel is very different. Cloud builds up along the coastline and that is a good way of spotting the coast just look below the cloud line.
It can be cloudy over land but gin clear over the sea.
On the negative side storms tend to roll in from the East which is a breading ground for thunderstorms. On many occasions coming back to the UK at night in business jets and twin props I have been met by a wall of thunderstorms protecting the UK. Once in a twin I had to fly all the way down mid channel to Southampton to find a way through.
Watch out for sea fog as the weather in the UK can be brilliant only to find the channel covered in fog. I have flown over there and watched the ferries carving channels in the fog often with their funnels sticking out of the milky base below very surreal
Pace
As there is a continuos stream of ferries trundling to and from they leave pretty white lines leading you there.
Just make sure you dont follow the ones running down the channel or you may make your day joint in Jersey or Amsterdam.
On good VFR days you will see the other side from the UK and it looks very close.
For the Newbie non instrument trained pilot avoid your first crossing on anything but the best days and remember you have to come back.
Return well clear of sunset so you can be found if the worst happens before you get flattened by one of the numerous ships charging through there.
Other than that its a piece of cake and smacks of money making by establishments who want special checkouts.
You may get checked out on a perfect day and end up doing it on your own not such a perfect day which will be as different as chalk from cheese anyway.
You will find the weather over the channel is very different. Cloud builds up along the coastline and that is a good way of spotting the coast just look below the cloud line.
It can be cloudy over land but gin clear over the sea.
On the negative side storms tend to roll in from the East which is a breading ground for thunderstorms. On many occasions coming back to the UK at night in business jets and twin props I have been met by a wall of thunderstorms protecting the UK. Once in a twin I had to fly all the way down mid channel to Southampton to find a way through.
Watch out for sea fog as the weather in the UK can be brilliant only to find the channel covered in fog. I have flown over there and watched the ferries carving channels in the fog often with their funnels sticking out of the milky base below very surreal
Pace
Last edited by Pace; 13th Jan 2009 at 12:06.
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Fuji
The murky pond water seperating the uk from Europe. The bit thats narrow by Dover and gets wider the further along you go
Whether its UK or France who knows the french tend to pass you over to London in airways over france anyway in jets so maybe they think we own the lot
One tip the famous white cliffs of Dover are not a patch compared to the ones on the french side. Fly low and level with the cliff tops, but watch out for the seagulls as they seem to be bigger that side
Pace
The murky pond water seperating the uk from Europe. The bit thats narrow by Dover and gets wider the further along you go
Whether its UK or France who knows the french tend to pass you over to London in airways over france anyway in jets so maybe they think we own the lot
One tip the famous white cliffs of Dover are not a patch compared to the ones on the french side. Fly low and level with the cliff tops, but watch out for the seagulls as they seem to be bigger that side
Pace
Last edited by Pace; 13th Jan 2009 at 13:02.
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It would appear that with the exception of DD and B2N2, the CCC is regarded as a non essential check! The ironic point i was trying to make in the original post was the person telling me I needed a CCC didnt know the current requirments re:- Mode S on the Continent
So how can they asses my performance WRT flight planning, weather briefing, notams and PPR's etc if they dont know the current situation themselves on the Mode S issue Surely this would be part of the planning they would want to see performed with proficiency? To check if your flight is legal in all the states you intend to visit! Call me old fashioned but surely the question asker should know the answer
And this is what they want to charge me in the region of Ł300 for! Does anyone know if a Mode Alpha equiped aircraft is legal to visit France, Belgium, The Netherlands and Germany? This is the information i have really been after as none of the aircraft in question have Mode S as Mr Singh said it will cost him too much money
although some have mode c, and seeing as my friends and wife particularly want to visit these places it would be silly spending over Ł500 to check out and join a club who's planes aren't fit for the purpose to which i intend to use them!
So how can they asses my performance WRT flight planning, weather briefing, notams and PPR's etc if they dont know the current situation themselves on the Mode S issue Surely this would be part of the planning they would want to see performed with proficiency? To check if your flight is legal in all the states you intend to visit! Call me old fashioned but surely the question asker should know the answer And this is what they want to charge me in the region of Ł300 for! Does anyone know if a Mode Alpha equiped aircraft is legal to visit France, Belgium, The Netherlands and Germany? This is the information i have really been after as none of the aircraft in question have Mode S as Mr Singh said it will cost him too much money although some have mode c, and seeing as my friends and wife particularly want to visit these places it would be silly spending over Ł500 to check out and join a club who's planes aren't fit for the purpose to which i intend to use them!
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Here you go - could be right, could be wrong .. .. ..
France
Mode A or C required for D and above and for night (SVFR) but not mode S, unless IFR in which case mode S now mandatory. You will still get exemptions from some class D TMA - L2K for example.
Belgium
Mode A or C for all classes, unless IFR, in which case mode S mandatory in all classes.
Germany
I think mode S is already mandatory for all classes D and above IFR or VFR and compulsory in all classes IFR.
Netherlands
As above but mandatory in all classes except designated airspace below 1,200feet amsl.
Practically, I wouldnt be to bothered for VFR in France, any where else it is becoming more hassle to not have mode S than to have it.
I have to say I am mode S so I havent taken particular note or had any relevant issues so may nto be the best person to ask.
If however I were running a fleet of aircraft without mode S and were willing for pilots to fly them in Europe I would want to make certain I knew the current situation.
France
Mode A or C required for D and above and for night (SVFR) but not mode S, unless IFR in which case mode S now mandatory. You will still get exemptions from some class D TMA - L2K for example.
Belgium
Mode A or C for all classes, unless IFR, in which case mode S mandatory in all classes.
Germany
I think mode S is already mandatory for all classes D and above IFR or VFR and compulsory in all classes IFR.
Netherlands
As above but mandatory in all classes except designated airspace below 1,200feet amsl.
Practically, I wouldnt be to bothered for VFR in France, any where else it is becoming more hassle to not have mode S than to have it.
I have to say I am mode S so I havent taken particular note or had any relevant issues so may nto be the best person to ask.
If however I were running a fleet of aircraft without mode S and were willing for pilots to fly them in Europe I would want to make certain I knew the current situation.
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Just out of curiosity I happened to browse the AIPs to see what they say about it. My main interest was VFR.
Agree. VFR only needs mode A+C. AIP GEN 1.5
Yep. A+C. AIP ENR 1.6
A tad more complex. Mode S is required in class C+D, in any TMZ, at night in controlled airspace, and above 5000' MSL/3500' AGL (whichever is higher). AIP GEN 1.5
Correct according to the AIP (GEN 1.5). But I know there's an AIC too (AIC-A 07/08; I linked to it earlier in this thread) which shows a gradual introduction of mode S, outside the TMZ, above a certain FL, where the FL is coming down in stages. (FL65 now, FL45 after 9-4-09, 1200' after 9-4-10.
The other thing that might catch people out is the ELT/PLB requirement in France:
https://www.sia.aviation-civile.gouv...2008_10_EN.pdf
France
Mode A or C required for D and above and for night (SVFR) but not mode S, unless IFR in which case mode S now mandatory. You will still get exemptions from some class D TMA - L2K for example.
Mode A or C required for D and above and for night (SVFR) but not mode S, unless IFR in which case mode S now mandatory. You will still get exemptions from some class D TMA - L2K for example.
Belgium
Mode A or C for all classes, unless IFR, in which case mode S mandatory in all classes.
Mode A or C for all classes, unless IFR, in which case mode S mandatory in all classes.
Germany
I think mode S is already mandatory for all classes D and above IFR or VFR and compulsory in all classes IFR.
I think mode S is already mandatory for all classes D and above IFR or VFR and compulsory in all classes IFR.
Netherlands
As above but mandatory in all classes except designated airspace below 1,200feet amsl.
As above but mandatory in all classes except designated airspace below 1,200feet amsl.
The other thing that might catch people out is the ELT/PLB requirement in France:
https://www.sia.aviation-civile.gouv...2008_10_EN.pdf
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The ironic point i was trying to make in the original post was the person telling me I needed a CCC didnt know the current requirments re:- Mode S[....]
Call me old fashioned but surely the question asker should know the answer
Call me old fashioned but surely the question asker should know the answer
Does anyone know if a Mode Alpha equiped aircraft is legal to visit France, Belgium, The Netherlands and Germany?
In practise, flying mode A only in the continent is not a good idea as you are likely to be denied transit through any but the quietest controlled airspace (and as you know, in the continent one does not try / is expected to avoid CAS as a general rule). Mode C will make your and the controller's life easier so go for that (side note: I can't believe there are still non-mode C aircraft around)
As for mode S specifically, it's all a bit of a nightmare VFR-wise. I am already mode S equipped as is mostly everyone I know around here so I'm not really up to date, but the following page may be of interest for you:
EUROCONTROL - General Aviation - VFR Briefing Room
HTH.
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Hi DD,
Proving my point, are we? It's spelled arse, with an 's'. If you are going to use candid language, at least write it properly--no need for "child-speakesque"[*] spellings. Which brings us back to the Nanny theory, etc., etc.
[*] How's that for a contorted expression?
Anyway, what I was going to say was this:
Thankfully not! But tell me, do you or do you not invite your students to fly across the channel as part of their PPL training? And if you don't, do you agree that it would be a good (+fun) idea, precisely for all the reasons proponents of cross-channel checks put forward?
The Nanny Ideology – my ar5e.
[*] How's that for a contorted expression?
Anyway, what I was going to say was this:
Sir, with respect, you know nothing of me, my training methods, my schools philosophy or the quality of the training we provide or the quality of pilot we produce.
But tell me, do you or do you not invite your students to fly across the channel as part of their PPL training? And if you don't, do you agree that it would be a good (+fun) idea, precisely for all the reasons proponents of cross-channel checks put forward?
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LH2
Thankfully not! But tell me, do you or do you not invite your students to fly across the channel as part of their PPL training? And if you don't, do you agree that it would be a good (+fun) idea, precisely for all the reasons proponents of cross-channel checks put forward?
As it happens, students where I work are invited to do a cross channel flight. We have fly out’s where one student would fly the outbound leg, and sit in the back for the return - an ideal way to ‘fleece the punter’, yes? Next one is in April – would you like to come along?
Annoying thing though, there is always the argument about who pays for my lunch – is it my student on the outbound leg or the return student?
Now, have I spelled everything correctly?
Thankfully not! But tell me, do you or do you not invite your students to fly across the channel as part of their PPL training? And if you don't, do you agree that it would be a good (+fun) idea, precisely for all the reasons proponents of cross-channel checks put forward?
As it happens, students where I work are invited to do a cross channel flight. We have fly out’s where one student would fly the outbound leg, and sit in the back for the return - an ideal way to ‘fleece the punter’, yes? Next one is in April – would you like to come along?
Annoying thing though, there is always the argument about who pays for my lunch – is it my student on the outbound leg or the return student?
Now, have I spelled everything correctly?
To cut to the chase- I would have thought that just dealing with circuits at Biggin on a busy summer weekend would be experience enough for coping with L2K. ( apart from the French speaking of course!)
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Hi
Is that during their PPL training, or after they have gained their licence? In any event, I do commend your school for offering the experience.
Only if a "Cross-channel Checkout" is subsequently required of them. 
I'll keep your invitation in mind in case I happen to be in the UK around those dates. With someone else paying for the return leg, it costs as much as the Eurostar so it's a doable proposition.
Yes, except for "fly outs", as has been pointed out. 's is the genitive marker in English.
As it happens, students where I work are invited to do a cross channel flight. We have fly out’s where one student would fly the outbound leg, and sit in the back for the return
- an ideal way to ‘fleece the punter’, yes?
Next one is in April – would you like to come along?
Now, have I spelled everything correctly?
( apart from the French speaking of course!)
In my experience most countries stick to English anyway - with one notable exception, of course.
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I did one of these recently - cleaned me out financially for the rest of the month.
On the positive side - the instructor was pleasant enough and good company. I got some experience of flying IMC (but as my getting my IR is still some light years away not immediately useful). Also, in my particular case experience on a PA28 on which I have not previously been checked out.
Otherwise I really don't see the point. All I needed was a briefing about filing a flight plan, customs form and radio procedures. The instructor knew even less French than the very little I do.
On the positive side - the instructor was pleasant enough and good company. I got some experience of flying IMC (but as my getting my IR is still some light years away not immediately useful). Also, in my particular case experience on a PA28 on which I have not previously been checked out.
Otherwise I really don't see the point. All I needed was a briefing about filing a flight plan, customs form and radio procedures. The instructor knew even less French than the very little I do.
Last edited by Molesworth 1; 21st Jun 2010 at 14:15.
