Light Aircraft down in Staffordshire
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: UK
Posts: 626
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Pace
I am well aware this is a pilots' forum - and I speak as a pilot of 30 years and as an engineer for nearly as many. My point was that if you are going to post about possible problems with a particular aircraft type then learn a little about it before going into great depths.
Here's some examples:
1. PA28s don't have elevators so it's unlikely one fell off this particular aircraft.
2. You can look inside the tail cone of a PA28, not the rear fuse. The cable drum you can see operates the stab trim. There is no 'control jack'.
3. If the primary limit stop bolts were missing then what happens is the horizontal stab (in this case) would go a few degrees further (if that) until the secondary stops are contacted (which happens under the instrument panel). Full scale stab deflection during flight on a PA28 is not going to be good, stops there or not.
4. Aircraft don't fall to bits just because it's Annual inspection time.
5. PA28 stab is controlled by cables onto the balance arm inside the rear fuse. There is an Airworthiness Directive on certain PA28 models to check for cracks on the balance arm mounting holes where it bolts to the stab spar (200hr repetitive inspection).
AD is here: EASA Airworthiness Directives Publishing Tool
I'm sure the AAIB will have enough to go on to have a good idea of what tragically happened.
I don't want to comment too much more or I'll find myself agreeing with Bose and one does have a reputation to uphold after all...
I am well aware this is a pilots' forum - and I speak as a pilot of 30 years and as an engineer for nearly as many. My point was that if you are going to post about possible problems with a particular aircraft type then learn a little about it before going into great depths.
Here's some examples:
1. PA28s don't have elevators so it's unlikely one fell off this particular aircraft.
2. You can look inside the tail cone of a PA28, not the rear fuse. The cable drum you can see operates the stab trim. There is no 'control jack'.
3. If the primary limit stop bolts were missing then what happens is the horizontal stab (in this case) would go a few degrees further (if that) until the secondary stops are contacted (which happens under the instrument panel). Full scale stab deflection during flight on a PA28 is not going to be good, stops there or not.
4. Aircraft don't fall to bits just because it's Annual inspection time.
5. PA28 stab is controlled by cables onto the balance arm inside the rear fuse. There is an Airworthiness Directive on certain PA28 models to check for cracks on the balance arm mounting holes where it bolts to the stab spar (200hr repetitive inspection).
AD is here: EASA Airworthiness Directives Publishing Tool
I'm sure the AAIB will have enough to go on to have a good idea of what tragically happened.
I don't want to comment too much more or I'll find myself agreeing with Bose and one does have a reputation to uphold after all...
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 441
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
smartarse
I asked if any of our engineering 'friends' could offer any advice.
I was not looking for a 'smart alec', sarcastic response.
You will not uphold your reputation if you ridicule the responses of those who make comments in good faith and who may not have a bone dome as large as yours.
FOK
I asked if any of our engineering 'friends' could offer any advice.
I was not looking for a 'smart alec', sarcastic response.
You will not uphold your reputation if you ridicule the responses of those who make comments in good faith and who may not have a bone dome as large as yours.
FOK
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Nottingham
Posts: 51
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
What can you get from this thread?
In answer to the questions others have posed - Well a lot actually - so far I have been reminded about control issues with three up and I have confirmed my personal rule that I never offer to take flying at the same time both parents of young children. I have heard some theories about why this aircraft crashed some of which I hadn't thought of and may come to mind when I do my go/no go check before my next flight. I have also read a masterly exposition of why we are all so interested in this issue.
The last thread I read on a crash which inspired exactly the same debate about whether speculation should take place or not was the incident in Ireland killing a whole family. I was particularly interested because I had also considered flying that day and had decided against it on the grounds of weather, so I can remember vividly what the conditions were like. Whether the crash was caused by pilot incapacitation, aircraft malfunction, loss of control in IMC or just excessive turbulence or something else altogether I have no idea and we will have to wait for the investigation. But it was high in my consciousness because it could have been me flying. I have since given a lot of thought to the safety margin accompanying that flight - right down to a comment some contributor made about waves in the Irish Sea being so high that a successful ditching would have been unlikely had an engine failure occurred over water. In whatever interval it takes for an AAIB report to come out, I will have forgotten what it was like that day.
We need to keep on speculating whilst things are fresh in our minds, not attribute blame until we know the facts, and not criticise others for voicing their honest opinions even if we disagree with them. The critics don't need to read the thread.
The last thread I read on a crash which inspired exactly the same debate about whether speculation should take place or not was the incident in Ireland killing a whole family. I was particularly interested because I had also considered flying that day and had decided against it on the grounds of weather, so I can remember vividly what the conditions were like. Whether the crash was caused by pilot incapacitation, aircraft malfunction, loss of control in IMC or just excessive turbulence or something else altogether I have no idea and we will have to wait for the investigation. But it was high in my consciousness because it could have been me flying. I have since given a lot of thought to the safety margin accompanying that flight - right down to a comment some contributor made about waves in the Irish Sea being so high that a successful ditching would have been unlikely had an engine failure occurred over water. In whatever interval it takes for an AAIB report to come out, I will have forgotten what it was like that day.
We need to keep on speculating whilst things are fresh in our minds, not attribute blame until we know the facts, and not criticise others for voicing their honest opinions even if we disagree with them. The critics don't need to read the thread.
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: UK
Posts: 626
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Ah the old name calling game. Excellent grown up response, well done.
I wasn't actually being sarcastic, I was merely pointing out some inaccuracies in previous posts which some people may not have realised were actually taken from Enid Blyton's 'Tales of Aircraft Accident Investigation'.
So sorry if the truth hurt. Enjoy.
I wasn't actually being sarcastic, I was merely pointing out some inaccuracies in previous posts which some people may not have realised were actually taken from Enid Blyton's 'Tales of Aircraft Accident Investigation'.
So sorry if the truth hurt. Enjoy.
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 441
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Frankly I'm not really interested whether it's a screw jack, control jack, rear fuselage or tail cone.
The crux of the matter is to try and determine what may have happened and to try and invoke some positive safety arguments to help ensure other, perhaps, less experienced pilots gain something from the airmanship issues in question here. If that can be achieved then much has been gained from this Thread.
Speculation is just that. If it is ill-informed or 'amateurish' then don't mock those with less knowledge than yourself. Try and put the misconceptions right in a humble and informative manner.
KR
FOK
The crux of the matter is to try and determine what may have happened and to try and invoke some positive safety arguments to help ensure other, perhaps, less experienced pilots gain something from the airmanship issues in question here. If that can be achieved then much has been gained from this Thread.
Speculation is just that. If it is ill-informed or 'amateurish' then don't mock those with less knowledge than yourself. Try and put the misconceptions right in a humble and informative manner.
KR
FOK
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: London
Age: 68
Posts: 1,269
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
For some reason pedant is apparently part of the PPL syllabus , although it may be an exam for 1.000 hrs + PPL-ics
Can we get back to being humble, free to voicing our opinions and respect for others?
Can we get back to being humble, free to voicing our opinions and respect for others?
Pompey till I die
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Guildford
Age: 51
Posts: 779
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
?!?
Can we get back to being humble, free to voicing our opinions and respect for others?
Join Date: May 2001
Location: UK
Posts: 4,631
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The crux of the matter is to try and determine what may have happened and to try and invoke some positive safety arguments to help ensure other, perhaps, less experienced pilots gain something from the airmanship issues in question here. If that can be achieved then much has been gained from this Thread.
How can you determine what has happened from the facts we have?
As is so often the case with threads such as this we are doing nothing more than speculating -wildly.
The accident may have been caused by:
Pilot incapacitation,
An overloaded aircraft,
Mechanical failure,
An unsuccessful forced landing,
and a dozen or more other scenarios we might dream up.
We simply do not know. We have so little evidence on which to go.
We do know the pilot was experienced. We can reasonably assume he knew his aircraft well because he was the owner. In the absence of any information to the contrary it seems to me disingenuous to speculate the pilot had overloaded his aircraft - whilst clearly it is possible.
Forgive me for repeating myself but I do genuinely get concerned when we resort to such wild speculation. For those that do, come on chaps, set out in clear terms the evidence on which you are relying to reach the conclusion you are promoting so at least we can determine whether there is a reasoned argument behind the proposition.
Having been involved with the AAIB it is indeed the case that even in an accident such as this a great deal of evidence can be gathered about the factors which may have been contributory. For example, almost certainly the AAIB will be able to prepare a post flight loading sheet which will probably be fairly accurate. However, it is fair to say that whilst in most cases they may be fairly confident of the likely cause, some will remain a mystery.
We justify our speculation on the grounds that others might learn. I think there is some merit in this argument. An accident secures a morbid audience who will be attracted to the thread. However the discussion often ends up wide ranging and without focus in cases where there is so little evidence. I still cannot help feeling we would do better to take one thread of speculation and debate this as a matter in its own right.
Finally I didn’t think the comments about the mechanical aspects of the aircraft were sarcastic. They came across to me as being a factual disposition of the mechanical elements of this aircraft. Is it really the case that we are so keen to ignore the facts for want of speculation? I would far rather acknowledge that based on the evidence we can eliminate certain possibilities.
As pilots I think one of the most important lessons we can learn is to approach a problem - any problem, in a quantitative way. If we cant do that we will have failed in our ability to assess any problem with which we may be confronted in the air. There are so many accidents which only occurred because the pilots chose to ignore the evidence which was available to them at the time or because they failed to analyse the evidence correctly. I would suggest we make the same mistake in our analysis of accidents in some of these threads for want of any evidence of the cause and reveal ourselves as lacking the methodical analysis that we should expect from pilots.
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Auckland
Age: 43
Posts: 114
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Will the AAIB (or Police) also talk to friends of the pilot to determine if the pilot was in good health both mentally and physically?
I've been going through the safety briefings on pilotworkshops lately and something that was mentioned was buzzing a house? Not suggesting that this was the cause as I don't even know if there are any houses in the area.
But it brings me onto my next thought.
Professionalism should in threory always prevail But - As a pilot I guess you might sometimes naturally try to make the flight for your passengers a little more "interesting", maybe by flying a little lower and slower so that they can see what's happening on the ground .. and then possibly to be caught out by the extra weight?
My amateurish and in-experienced 2 cents and apologies if something similar was mentioned before but I can't be asked to read through all the posts again.
I've been going through the safety briefings on pilotworkshops lately and something that was mentioned was buzzing a house? Not suggesting that this was the cause as I don't even know if there are any houses in the area.
But it brings me onto my next thought.
Professionalism should in threory always prevail But - As a pilot I guess you might sometimes naturally try to make the flight for your passengers a little more "interesting", maybe by flying a little lower and slower so that they can see what's happening on the ground .. and then possibly to be caught out by the extra weight?
My amateurish and in-experienced 2 cents and apologies if something similar was mentioned before but I can't be asked to read through all the posts again.
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: London
Age: 68
Posts: 1,269
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Fuji
We all learn from each other. I learn from you, just the way you write and analyze. I learn from Bose's point of view, I learn from IO540's great power to challenge, I learn from the questions of the PPL student, I learn from many people here
Thats why I keep coming back here.
I get upset by the petty nagging at each other, where the one feels he's better than the other. Well f*ck me ( i learned this from a BBC cooking program), none of us are any better than others so be grateful you can afford to fly and feel free! Many people will never even get close to what we're given in life, we're the lucky ones!
Keep up the good work! I wanna keep learning!
We all learn from each other. I learn from you, just the way you write and analyze. I learn from Bose's point of view, I learn from IO540's great power to challenge, I learn from the questions of the PPL student, I learn from many people here
Thats why I keep coming back here.
I get upset by the petty nagging at each other, where the one feels he's better than the other. Well f*ck me ( i learned this from a BBC cooking program), none of us are any better than others so be grateful you can afford to fly and feel free! Many people will never even get close to what we're given in life, we're the lucky ones!
Keep up the good work! I wanna keep learning!
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: In the boot of my car!
Posts: 5,982
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Fuji
From previous accident posts of yours it is clear that you are opposed to discussions on accidents. While I respect that and enjoy your contributions your comments regarding accidents come from a biased position.
I personally welcome discussion. The reason for that is not to work out the AAIBs work for them! You are missing the point.
Any accident could be to any of us here. We are a small fraternity and when these accidents occur it pulls us up and makes us realise our own vulnerability. " There for the Grace of God go we".
By purely discussing possible causes we are at least thinking about the accident and making ourselves more aware of what could go wrong. It is a natural human instinct to talk about worries a cleansing of the soul.
There are most definately benefits to such discussion. One poster said that he reconsidered a flight to Ireland over water because of the discussions regarding flying over water in winter to Southern Ireland. The discussion highlighted for him other threats in undertaking such a flight for an inexperienced pilot which he was not aware of. Yet this discussion revolved around the Ireland accident.
When an accident occurs we are shocked and hence more open to taking in information a year plus down the line when the AAIB results come out the accident is a distant memory.
The Biggin Hill Citation crash happened to an aircraft that I had actually flown and to a pilot I had years ago flown with. I was shocked more than most and wanted to know what could possibly have brought that aircraft and that pilot down. In a way I needed to talk about it!
Now months later still no word from The AAIB, still no definative reasons but the accident no longer shocks. It is becoming a distant and forgotten memory.
Bose you are opposed to any discussion. Be honest with yourself you made that clear in previous posts for reasons which are commendable. We are not a branch of the AAIB looking for results but pilots expressing our own deep fears.
Pace
From previous accident posts of yours it is clear that you are opposed to discussions on accidents. While I respect that and enjoy your contributions your comments regarding accidents come from a biased position.
I personally welcome discussion. The reason for that is not to work out the AAIBs work for them! You are missing the point.
Any accident could be to any of us here. We are a small fraternity and when these accidents occur it pulls us up and makes us realise our own vulnerability. " There for the Grace of God go we".
By purely discussing possible causes we are at least thinking about the accident and making ourselves more aware of what could go wrong. It is a natural human instinct to talk about worries a cleansing of the soul.
There are most definately benefits to such discussion. One poster said that he reconsidered a flight to Ireland over water because of the discussions regarding flying over water in winter to Southern Ireland. The discussion highlighted for him other threats in undertaking such a flight for an inexperienced pilot which he was not aware of. Yet this discussion revolved around the Ireland accident.
When an accident occurs we are shocked and hence more open to taking in information a year plus down the line when the AAIB results come out the accident is a distant memory.
The Biggin Hill Citation crash happened to an aircraft that I had actually flown and to a pilot I had years ago flown with. I was shocked more than most and wanted to know what could possibly have brought that aircraft and that pilot down. In a way I needed to talk about it!
Now months later still no word from The AAIB, still no definative reasons but the accident no longer shocks. It is becoming a distant and forgotten memory.
Bose you are opposed to any discussion. Be honest with yourself you made that clear in previous posts for reasons which are commendable. We are not a branch of the AAIB looking for results but pilots expressing our own deep fears.
Pace
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: In the boot of my car!
Posts: 5,982
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I am well aware this is a pilots' forum - and I speak as a pilot of 30 years and as an engineer for nearly as many. My point was that if you are going to post about possible problems with a particular aircraft type then learn a little about it before going into great depths.
If you are an engineer and notice any innacurate postings in any thread never mind this one, It is your duty to correct it.
Many pilots come here for information whether they are techical or flying related and the information has to be accurate.
Pace
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Oxford
Posts: 2,042
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Smarthawke,
Don't let it get to you. I fly PA28s almost exclusively (can't afford anything better :-) ) and have 250hrs or so on them, yet there were things there that I didn't know about the PA28. So thanks for your comments.
Tmi
Don't let it get to you. I fly PA28s almost exclusively (can't afford anything better :-) ) and have 250hrs or so on them, yet there were things there that I didn't know about the PA28. So thanks for your comments.
Tmi
Join Date: May 2001
Location: UK
Posts: 4,631
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Pace
By definition any view we hold (dear) is biassed, mine no more or less than yours.
However, for clarity sake, I am not opposed to discussion.
As I have said previously, I am dubious of the merit of discussing accidents where we have almost no evidence on which to base our discussion. This accident is a good example in that as I indicated earlier it is almost impossible to eliminate any cause (other than weather). By definition the discussion is hence almost wholly hypothetical.
In contrast, consider the discussion that took place recently about the Cirrus. We had good reason to believe the weather was a factor. This was subsequently confirmed by friends of the pilot. In consequence an interesting and well informed discussion ensued about the risks of airframe icing.
There is a morbid fascination in accidents - they attract interest, whether it be on here, in the press or those rubber necking as they drive past. That morbid fascination will almost certainly attract more people to read this thread. They may in consequence “learn” something from the thread about scenarios that lead to accidents and thus avoid replicating the same set of circumstances - clearly a good thing.
However, equally the discussions can often become so wide ranging and so speculative that they cover just about every scenario and leave us more confused than when we started. In short if you want an exposition of what can cause an aircraft to crash, don’t bother with Wickapedia, just read one of these threads.
There is also the issue of the distress we cause to relatives. I accept this is moot. However I am in no doubt that relatives and friends are frequently distressed by some of the ill informed discussion that takes place. In this case it has been suggested the aircraft was overloaded or the aircraft was performing aerobatics - both are serious allegations, which call to account the very legality of the flight. So far as I am aware there is barely a shred of evidence to support either hypothesis.
As a community we have a responsibility to analyse events in a methodical way - that is what we do to avoid accidents occurring in the first place and what we do to avoid a single manageable event escalating into something more serious. More than for any other reason I worry when we absolve ourselves of that responsibility as a community and debase ourselves to ill informed and wide raging speculation about the causes of an accident in circumstances in which we have so little evidence on which to base our hypothesis.
All said and done, perhaps the issue I have is that these threads seem to attract the best and worst in us. We desperately want answers, we desperately want to allay our own fears that it couldn’t happen to us, but sometimes life is just not like that - sometimes we will never know why, only that it was.
From previous accident posts of yours it is clear that you are opposed to discussions on accidents. While I respect that and enjoy your contributions your comments regarding accidents come from a biased position.
However, for clarity sake, I am not opposed to discussion.
As I have said previously, I am dubious of the merit of discussing accidents where we have almost no evidence on which to base our discussion. This accident is a good example in that as I indicated earlier it is almost impossible to eliminate any cause (other than weather). By definition the discussion is hence almost wholly hypothetical.
In contrast, consider the discussion that took place recently about the Cirrus. We had good reason to believe the weather was a factor. This was subsequently confirmed by friends of the pilot. In consequence an interesting and well informed discussion ensued about the risks of airframe icing.
There is a morbid fascination in accidents - they attract interest, whether it be on here, in the press or those rubber necking as they drive past. That morbid fascination will almost certainly attract more people to read this thread. They may in consequence “learn” something from the thread about scenarios that lead to accidents and thus avoid replicating the same set of circumstances - clearly a good thing.
However, equally the discussions can often become so wide ranging and so speculative that they cover just about every scenario and leave us more confused than when we started. In short if you want an exposition of what can cause an aircraft to crash, don’t bother with Wickapedia, just read one of these threads.
There is also the issue of the distress we cause to relatives. I accept this is moot. However I am in no doubt that relatives and friends are frequently distressed by some of the ill informed discussion that takes place. In this case it has been suggested the aircraft was overloaded or the aircraft was performing aerobatics - both are serious allegations, which call to account the very legality of the flight. So far as I am aware there is barely a shred of evidence to support either hypothesis.
As a community we have a responsibility to analyse events in a methodical way - that is what we do to avoid accidents occurring in the first place and what we do to avoid a single manageable event escalating into something more serious. More than for any other reason I worry when we absolve ourselves of that responsibility as a community and debase ourselves to ill informed and wide raging speculation about the causes of an accident in circumstances in which we have so little evidence on which to base our hypothesis.
All said and done, perhaps the issue I have is that these threads seem to attract the best and worst in us. We desperately want answers, we desperately want to allay our own fears that it couldn’t happen to us, but sometimes life is just not like that - sometimes we will never know why, only that it was.
Join Date: May 2001
Location: UK
Posts: 4,631
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
It is simply idealistic to believe that unpleasantness can be avoided in the kind of debates held on Internet forums. You would need to have a forum where entry is strictly controlled in some way, no?
However, those who keep an open mind may be persuaded of the merits of a particular line of argument and take a different tack in consequence. If enough do so I think we would end up with a more informed and more constructive debate on threads such as this. I also think we might avoid jumping to potentially distressing conclusions unless we could support our conclusions by reference at least to circumstantional evidence.
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: In the boot of my car!
Posts: 5,982
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
All said and done, perhaps the issue I have is that these threads seem to attract the best and worst in us. We desperately want answers, we desperately want to allay our own fears that it couldn’t happen to us, but sometimes life is just not like that - sometimes we will never know why, only that it was.
Fuji
As you rightly posted we may never know. Not even the AAIB always come up with a definative answer. For all we know maybe the passenger had a panic attack, grabbed the controls and froze on them. I had that happen to me years ago. While very unlikely to be the cause of this accident a discussion on how to deal with such a passenger may serve a purpose for someone in the future.
The main point of an accident for pilots is the shock and reality that what we get so much pleasure from can turn around and bite hard with serious consequences. Not only to the pilot but to his passengers family and friends.
It is when such an accident is fresh that we are more open to examine our own behaviour and to take in what other pilots are saying. Some is rubbish, some maybe a million miles away from what actually happened but some are gems. There can be gems in the million miles away category too. Sometimes you have to sift through a lot of rubble to find the gems but you wont find them without looking or stifling conversation that leads to them.
As long as the discussions are not personal or statements of fact but the accident is used as a launch pad for discussion there is no reason why any relatives or friends should be upset.
Yes there are thrill seekers who plod the forums looking for fights, self importance trips or morbid excitement but there are many who are genuinely concerned not only about the accident and people involved but their own safety now and in the future.
Pace