VMC into IFR accidents?

[IO540]

However, that said flying an aircraft in IMC with a turn and slip and a magnetic compass is, as far as I am concerned at any rate, an emergency. Flying an IAP by hand in that configuration is challenging however good you think you are. We have all done it

Yes, it's called the FAA IR checkride

Just to make sure you are sharp, it's done after a 3 hour oral

[Fright Level]

On my last SPA IR renewal, the examiner "failed" not only the horizon, HSI & RMI but the magnetic compass too. I did an approach and ILS to 200 feet with just the altimeter, VSI and turn/slip indicator.

The controller vectored me with (standard rate) turn instructions "start turn", "stop turn" until I was established on the localiser. It was good to see just how little you really needed to get in on a bad day but it was bloody hard work!

It's called a "no gyro, no compass approach" and apparently all radar controllers can carry out one.

[172driver]

the leans

To demonstrate how your senses can - and will - fool you, my instructor did the following (this is for the FAA PPL). On one of our night flights (for various reasons I did quite a lot of my initial training at night), we were in real IMC, climbing out of the L.A. basin. While in cloud he momentarily dimmed the instrument lights. After what seemed like an eternity, flicked them on again - I was in a 30 deg bank after what was probably only a few seconds. Trust the instruments!

Next up in the lesson came the strobes to 'on' in IMC to show the effect they have while looking through the prop......

[Pace]

SteveKing

I wish you could rely on being in the blue but sadly that often is not the case.
Especially in a twin or single you may not be able to get on top or have to stay at a level where you dont get the dreaded ice.

While its great punching out into the blue and sunshine often you can takeoff into a 400 foot cloudbase fly 200 nm with nothing and punch back out at 400 feet the other end.

Be prepared for the worst and you may get the the best expect the best and you may have to deal with the worst

Pace

[IO540]

I wish you could rely on being in the blue but sadly that often is not the case.
Especially in a twin or single you may not be able to get on top or have to stay at a level where you dont get the dreaded ice.

While its great punching out into the blue and sunshine often you can takeoff into a 400 foot cloudbase fly 200 nm with nothing and punch back out at 400 feet the other end.

Be prepared for the worst and you may get the the best expect the best and you may have to deal with the worst

You've stumbled upon a major IFR flight planning issue, Pace: where are the cloud tops?

There seem to be two kinds of pilots: those who will scrap a flight if IMC (which is usually freezing, at Eurocontrol airway levels) is likely enroute, and those who carry on regardless while relying on deicing equipment. I am in the first group. Most "old school" pilots are in the 2nd group.

Internet weather sources have made finding the tops easier but it is still very hit and miss.

It's not a huge deal - if you have say a 20k operating ceiling. Then you can get above cloud in most non-frontal weather. For penetrating fronts, all bets are off although a 25k ceiling would appear to do it maybe 95% of the time (CBs excepted but one can presumably avoid those with radar, or visually).

[Pace]

10540

Where are the cloud tops? would be a useful piece of information. At present the only way of finding out is to ask ATC for reported cloud tops.

Icing has to be a major consideration as most airways bottom out at the worst temperature zones for icing for much of the year.

We also have the problem of having to go on oxygen to get above some weather systems, while pilots may be happy on oxygen some passengers do not like it so most trips in light GA are limited to around the 12000 foot level.

My point is that if a pilots IFR /instrument skills involve the need to be on top in the blue rather than plodding along in the murk and gloom solid IMC for the whole trip then maybe that pilot should question being there at all.

Ie you have to be able to handle hand flying with no autopilot in solid IMC and still have enough mental capacity to deal with other failures on top of that . Hence my comments of fear the worst and you maybe nicely surprised expect the best and you may be nastily surprised.

Pace

[IO540]

Where are the cloud tops? would be a useful piece of information. At present the only way of finding out is to ask ATC for reported cloud tops.

I've sent you a PM. Basically most of the data comes from the GFS model e.g. NOAA (under Soundings). Various websites like Meteoblue offer variations of it.

Icing has to be a major consideration as most airways bottom out at the worst temperature zones for icing for much of the year.

Exactly.

We also have the problem of having to go on oxygen to get above some weather systems, while pilots may be happy on oxygen some passengers do not like it so most trips in light GA are limited to around the 12000 foot level.

TBH, a lot of people get a a headache at 12k... I would definitely have o2 up there. And if one doesn't reach VMC at 12k, what does one do? Turn back? That is not the way to do it unless de-iced and happy to hack it. One has to work ahead and climb early.

My point is that if a pilots IFR /instrument skills involve the need to be on top in the blue rather than plodding along in the murk and gloom solid IMC for the whole trip then maybe that pilot should question being there at all.

No, the pilot just needs to be more clever regarding weather He still faces IMC during climb and descent.

Your comment would apply to airline pilots, who spend 99% in VMC.

Ie you have to be able to handle hand flying with no autopilot in solid IMC and still have enough mental capacity to deal with other failures on top of that . Hence my comments of fear the worst and you maybe nicely surprised expect the best and you may be nastily surprised.

That's true. But there is still a huge practical/operational difference between hand flying in IMC for 5hrs, and doing it for 15 mins. Look at the airline pilot case again. They are not expected to fly Gatwick to Orlando in IMC, by hand. Why not? They are the elite, after all (esp. British Airways ones).

[Fright Level]

there is still a huge practical/operational difference between hand flying in IMC for 5hrs, and doing it for 15 mins. Look at the airline pilot case again. They are not expected to do that

IO540, you hit it spot on, our MEL covers flying without any of the three autopilots serviceable .. Flight crew members are limited to 5 flight hours per scheduled flight day..

Although we don't normally do it, we are expected to be able to! Climbing, descending, turbulence are all usually no problem hand flying, it's maintaining straight & level at jet cruise levels that's actually quite tricky in the thin air of the stratosphere.

PS - Thread drift - I notice there is no comment about high altitude flight (apart from the mixture restriction) in the TB20/21 POH. I would have thought operating even at FL200 would have shown very different aerodynamics. Not been above FL130 in it yet due no oxy.

[IO540]

I notice there is no comment about high altitude flight (apart from the mixture restriction) in the TB20/21 POH. I would have thought operating even at FL200 would have shown very different aerodynamics. Not been above FL130 in it yet due no oxy.

It doesn't fly any differently up there.

Obviously the IAS is lower near the ceiling, so the controls are as mushy as you would expect them to be at say 95kt IAS anywhere else. But that's all.

The TB21 goes to FL250. I am not aware of any different handling although I have never done it myself. The wing is just not very efficient in that thin air - one needs something like e.g. the Malibu.

What mixture restriction? At high levels, one needs all air one can get into the engine, so max revs (2575) and one needs the best power setting i.e. 100F ROP. No good trying to be clever with 25LOP at FL250

[SNS3Guppy]

there is still a huge practical/operational difference between hand flying in IMC for 5hrs, and doing it for 15 mins. Look at the airline pilot case again. They are not expected to do that

Actually, we are. Certain phases require the use of the autopilot, such as flight in RVSM airspace, and we're even restricted as to what automation we can use; it's got to be RVSM-compliant.

What we find is that the most common habit pilots exhibit in the sim (and on the line) is that the natural first instinct is to disconnect the autopilot and hand-fly. There's more training done in management of the automation than the hand-flying, because while the automation can do wonderous things, it also complicates things somewhat...and can easily back one into a hole.

I'm the same way...my first instinct is to disconnect the autopilot and hand fly the airplane. I did so last night during an ILS approach into LAX in some heavy rain. The airplane began to pitch while coupled to the autopilot, just outside the glide slope intercept point. I noticed the glideslope indicator begin to wobble, and immediately disconnected the autopilot and hand flew the approach.

Last night we also encountered severe turbulence enroute and attempted the use of the turbulence mode, but quickly disconnected the system (despite being in RVSM) and hand flew to exit the turbulence.

Most of the guys I've flow with on the line tend to hand fly as much as possible; I normally hand fly it to about 27,000' on the way up, and hand fly the arrivals and approach where I can.

A big part of our recurrent simulator training involves hand flown emergencies, approaches, missed approaches, and engine failure profiles. We stress the ability to operate with, and without the automation. To me, the biggest challenge isn't raw-data hand flying, but using the automation.

[Pace]

No, the pilot just needs to be more clever regarding weather He still faces IMC during climb and descent.

10540

I would rephrase that to there are pilots who have to and those who choose to. Some of us do not have the luxury of selecting our flying days and 99% of the time have to accept whats thrown at us

Pace

[Fuji Abound]

No, the pilot just needs to be more clever regarding weather He still faces IMC during climb and descent.

10540

I would rephrase that to there are pilots who have to and those who choose to. Some of us do not have the luxury of selecting our flying days and 99% of the time have to accept whats thrown at us

Very well put. Without any intention of causing offense, it reminds me of the way cricket was played in the old days:

There were the players and the gentlemen - the players had to play because they got paid for it, the gentlemen only played if it suited them to do so.

[Pace]

I work as an airline pilot but on a twin turboprop flying fairly short sectors. I have flown many 6 sector day's with no autopilot, never on top of the weather (alt. limited due to 'negative 8.33). The big difference is that we have two pilots. That is what makes it as safe as it is.

C195

I would go with that comment cocerning two pilots especially in fast jets or turbprops as well as the comments by Guppy.

We too had an autopilot throw its dolly out of the pram at FL360 and to be honest hand flying at that level was not hard we did it for 100nm before sorting George out.

The jet was a straight winged Citation so I cannot comment at swept winged jets handflown in the high 30s

Pace

[IO540]

I would rephrase that to there are pilots who have to and those who choose to. Some of us do not have the luxury of selecting our flying days and 99% of the time have to accept whats thrown at us

Agree completely. But I don't see a conflict there.

Your employer needs to provide appropriate equipment. If the job is one of those which one hears about from time to time, where you either fly or are sacked, then a non-deiced TB20 would be OK maybe 80-90% of the time but will IMHO without question kill you within the year, if you did a run say Biggin to Trondheim (ENVA) every day.

One should not expect a private pilot to be able to hack the worst case possible flight, at the limits of the highest possible fuel endurance, in solid IMC, partial panel. To argue otherwise is to argue that the pilot is an idiot, departing into objectively unsuitable conditions.

The airline pilots who are supposed to fly it for 5hrs by hand are not doing it PP. They are doing it on the flight director, and the other man will be doing everything else. Also, what is the typical jet transport MEL requirement as to autopilots? I said I would not depart (in certain hard conditions) with a duff one. I don't think an airliner would either.

[Tmbstory]

Swept Wing Corporate Jets Hand Flown

Pace:

There is very little difference from your comments about straight wing Citation jet.


Tmb

[Fright Level]

What mixture restriction?

Sorry, it must be a TB21 thing, it's for engine failure above FL230 it says a power reduction with too rich a mixture may cause the engine to stop so descend below FL230 and set the throttle 1/4 open and mixture to lean and restart the engine. If that doesn't work, then into the normal engine failure checklist.

[englishal]

I was quite surprised, when practicing partial panel, as we entered actual IFR the instructor "failed" an engine in a ME aeroplane. What surprised me was that I still managed to keep the thing right way up and even kept reasonably in compliance with my IFR clearance.....This was standard instrumentation. I wasn't expecting the engine " failure" but it shows that as long as you have a TC still working then you should be ok.

The G1000 is easier to fly IFR - the horizon is huge so you quickly pickup attitude changes. The headings are accurate to a degree so it is easy to spot drifts. When in moderate turbulence it is easier to see too!

[mm_flynn]

Originally Posted by Fright Level

What mixture restriction?

Sorry, it must be a TB21 thing, it's for engine failure above FL230 it says a power reduction with too rich a mixture may cause the engine to stop so descend below FL230 and set the throttle 1/4 open and mixture to lean and restart the engine. If that doesn't work, then into the normal engine failure checklist.

I think it is a turbocharged thing. My Bonanza has a similar POH comment.

The way it was explained to me was - If the engine fails at high altitude you will loose boost pressure and therefore the air/fuel mixture will go way rich (only say 35% the air molecules/fuel molecule) and you will not be able to restart. So you need to lean to a mixture that will burn in the rarefied air, re-start, get boost back (wind up way way lean) and enrich back to your cruise setting.

[IO540]

Interesting, mm_flynn.

Why would the engine stop in the first place, however?

In reality, one would fly at the best MPG level which for a TB20 is ~ 10k (plus or minus 2k makes no measurable difference) and for a TB21 is - at a very rough guess since I know of hardly anybody doing this for real - around 20k.

In the absence of IMC, one would climb to these levels and ask ATC for a "stop climb" and that's it for the next few hours, generally.

However, the matter is complicated by the oxygen flow rate. At 10k this is very low and some hairy-chested pilots would happily fly for hours at 10k without it. At 20k it is pretty damn high and you've got to be careful how you breathe, and constant passenger supervision is vital, and since refills are so damn hard to get around Europe, this becomes a serious flight planning issue on long trips.

One would not fly at 23k, and probably not above ~ 16k, except for short sections to remain above clouds. Having said that, I did one 5hr flight entirely at 16k and with a 1hr bit at 19k, and all of it was stratus. No fronts at all.

I keep half an eye out for a nice TB21 since with a 25k ceiling it is objectively a more capable airways machine but can't bring myself to do it, because I would lose maybe 10% MPG (and thus range) at lower levels (including the ~ FL100 kind of level) and I know from others' experiences that finding people in the UK who can do turbocharger work can be difficult.

[mm_flynn]

Originally Posted by IO540

Interesting, mm_flynn.

Why would the engine stop in the first place, however?

One can imagine all sorts of remote possibilities.

The most likely are the pilot...
- Runs a tank dry
- Reduces power sufficiently to loose boost pressure and the engine rich cuts.
- Leans so much that combustion stops - remember this is turbocharged so can deliver sea level power at FL250 and therefore LOP is appropriate at all levels.

Mid-teens seems to be the best compromise for me (good speed, MPG and not too much O2 issue). Have been to FL200 down to LFRS but never above that (I worry too much about the hypoxia.