VMC into IFR accidents?
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Be honest IMC guys how happy would you be in IMC with a VAC failure? I'm not IMC rated so not qualified to say.
Pace
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As others have said, it's not easy, and it needs regular practice.
When I did my FAA IR, a while ago, I could cope with navigating, talking on the radio, dialling in new frequencies and headings, swapping approach plates, while keeping within 3 degrees and 50 feet - and having the examiner firing questions at me to see if he could overload me.
There comes a point where you go into overload - maybe when the AI topples, or the engine starts misfiring. Then it gets interesting.
I'm lucky: I don't get the "leans" (or never have, yet). BUT if I'm overloaded, the height keeping and heading wander a bit and have to be recovered when the distraction is sorted. Not good.
I'm much happier flying IFR in IMC with another pilot: one of us does radio and plates, bugs and frequencies while the other concentrates on flying the thing. I've happily flown the length of the UK and across large chunks of California like that.
Single-pilot IFR is tough!
The IMC Rating is very well worth doing - even if EASA are ill-advised enough to do away with it, the skills will help you.
When I did my FAA IR, a while ago, I could cope with navigating, talking on the radio, dialling in new frequencies and headings, swapping approach plates, while keeping within 3 degrees and 50 feet - and having the examiner firing questions at me to see if he could overload me.
There comes a point where you go into overload - maybe when the AI topples, or the engine starts misfiring. Then it gets interesting.
I'm lucky: I don't get the "leans" (or never have, yet). BUT if I'm overloaded, the height keeping and heading wander a bit and have to be recovered when the distraction is sorted. Not good.
I'm much happier flying IFR in IMC with another pilot: one of us does radio and plates, bugs and frequencies while the other concentrates on flying the thing. I've happily flown the length of the UK and across large chunks of California like that.
Single-pilot IFR is tough!
The IMC Rating is very well worth doing - even if EASA are ill-advised enough to do away with it, the skills will help you.
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Some years ago according to the NTSB only 4% of accidents were caused by unqualified flight from VFR to IMC.
Dont know if it's relevant:
http://www.pprune.org/private-flying...-into-imc.html
Dont know if it's relevant:
http://www.pprune.org/private-flying...-into-imc.html
Last edited by mm_flynn; 25th Nov 2008 at 05:51.
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how happy would you be in IMC with a VAC failure
On mine, for example, only the main AI is vacuum powered. The other one is electric. But the autopilot works off the main AI so if I get a vac pump failure I lose the AP, which is a really stupid price to pay for the plus of having a main AI which will continue working indefinitely (not just for e.g. 30 mins) despite a total loss of electrics. It would have been much smarter for the AP to work off the electric AI but certification issues make this highly desirable safety improvement impossible.
Some planes have a vacuum powered DI. However, it is rare to have a slaved compass system (e.g. a slaved HSI) which is vacuum powered.
This is just one example of why a pilot should have a complete understanding of the aircraft systems - something very much missing in so many cases.
That said, 99% of airways IFR flying is done in sunshine...
One does the IR so one can sit in sunshine, not in cloud.
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Quite. Mine has a vac AI/DI, but an electric TC which is also the autopilot. In the event of a vac failure, on goes the A/P. I've had a vac pump die on me before, so I know what it's like, and can see the problems it might cause, especially without any kind of warning mechanism (how many people regularly include suction in their scan?). A fast-toppling AI isn't so much of a problem because it's obvious, it's when it topples slowly that you get into trouble.
Like a number of people, I did my IMC almost straight after my PPL and the confidence gained was excellent. Together with a friend, we would practise and use the rating carefully, particularly on trips to LFAC etc.
Many years went by and I lapsed in flying, eventually coming back ten years later on the old method of ten hours flying and retakes of most exams. The ten hours was fun and I realised I had lost none of the coordination skills for flying. Life was good and I got back into a share.
I regularly flew across the channel..I mean REALLY regularly as in most weekends with a car left in LFAC.
One midweek, I decided to take a non-flying friend to le Touq. Lovely day with bubbly clouds. Off we went, no problem at all. My friend was very impressed with the clouds and after flying past a few I thought it would be clever to fly through one..pop-in, pop-pop-out. Having selected one, we popped-in....and stayed in..and stayed in. Fifteen seconds went by as I realsied the situation I was in. I then experienced a horrible feeling that I have only ever heard described elsewhere. From my feet to my head came a rushing feeling leaving me with a metallic taste in my mouth and complete weakness. In that second I was more frightened than I ever have been in my life. I started to accept that today was it. I looked at the instruments, desperately trying to remember how to scan. I knew we were level but in my mind (remember this is only 40 seconds or so) fear was racing that I was not going to get out of this. And then, we popped-out.
My passenger was grinning with happiness but I was shaking and continued to do so.
Please don't bother to tell me how stupid I was risking my life and that of an innocent person..I know that.
That incident, which happened years ago affected me deeply and still does. Tasting fear like that let's it out of the box and it comes back from time to time to visit. Some here will understand, other won't.
My message: Don't fly into IMC unless you are trained AND current. For me, it was forty seconds that mentally wrecked me.
Many years went by and I lapsed in flying, eventually coming back ten years later on the old method of ten hours flying and retakes of most exams. The ten hours was fun and I realised I had lost none of the coordination skills for flying. Life was good and I got back into a share.
I regularly flew across the channel..I mean REALLY regularly as in most weekends with a car left in LFAC.
One midweek, I decided to take a non-flying friend to le Touq. Lovely day with bubbly clouds. Off we went, no problem at all. My friend was very impressed with the clouds and after flying past a few I thought it would be clever to fly through one..pop-in, pop-pop-out. Having selected one, we popped-in....and stayed in..and stayed in. Fifteen seconds went by as I realsied the situation I was in. I then experienced a horrible feeling that I have only ever heard described elsewhere. From my feet to my head came a rushing feeling leaving me with a metallic taste in my mouth and complete weakness. In that second I was more frightened than I ever have been in my life. I started to accept that today was it. I looked at the instruments, desperately trying to remember how to scan. I knew we were level but in my mind (remember this is only 40 seconds or so) fear was racing that I was not going to get out of this. And then, we popped-out.
My passenger was grinning with happiness but I was shaking and continued to do so.
Please don't bother to tell me how stupid I was risking my life and that of an innocent person..I know that.
That incident, which happened years ago affected me deeply and still does. Tasting fear like that let's it out of the box and it comes back from time to time to visit. Some here will understand, other won't.
My message: Don't fly into IMC unless you are trained AND current. For me, it was forty seconds that mentally wrecked me.
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Clare
Sounds like a panic attack maybe claustraphobia at being inside clouds and the thought that you maynot come out again.
I flew left seat in a single with a great guy who had a simular problem. We were flying to Belfast City. He was a good VFR pilot but hated being in clouds.
The weather was 1000 feet overcast. I filed IFR and climbed on top at FL80 where I noticed he was hyperventilating and kept asking to go down as he could not breath.
I told him it was crazy as we were in the blue at FL80 and descending would put us cruising in IMC. ATC may not approve such a level.
He then accepeted it but was very tense until we passed the IOM where the clouds started to break and he got glimpses of the sea below.
As soon as he saw the sea he relaxed and started to enjoy the flight. In the afternoon we flew back with a 3000 foot broken cloudbase and filed VFR.
He took the left seat and was like a man transformed flying really well and back in his comfort zone. The guy is a very meticulous pilot, handles the aircraft well but cannot cope with clouds or being on top out of sight of the ground. I am sure its a more common problem than you realise and you have to identify why you felt like that???
Pace
Sounds like a panic attack maybe claustraphobia at being inside clouds and the thought that you maynot come out again.
I flew left seat in a single with a great guy who had a simular problem. We were flying to Belfast City. He was a good VFR pilot but hated being in clouds.
The weather was 1000 feet overcast. I filed IFR and climbed on top at FL80 where I noticed he was hyperventilating and kept asking to go down as he could not breath.
I told him it was crazy as we were in the blue at FL80 and descending would put us cruising in IMC. ATC may not approve such a level.
He then accepeted it but was very tense until we passed the IOM where the clouds started to break and he got glimpses of the sea below.
As soon as he saw the sea he relaxed and started to enjoy the flight. In the afternoon we flew back with a 3000 foot broken cloudbase and filed VFR.
He took the left seat and was like a man transformed flying really well and back in his comfort zone. The guy is a very meticulous pilot, handles the aircraft well but cannot cope with clouds or being on top out of sight of the ground. I am sure its a more common problem than you realise and you have to identify why you felt like that???
Pace
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clareprop - have you ever had that panic feeling with somebody else (or an autopilot) flying in IMC?
Others have on occassions described experiencing something similar.
Others have on occassions described experiencing something similar.
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Be honest IMC guys how happy would you be in IMC with a VAC failure?
But the other vac pump kept running so we didn't lose any instruments.
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As others have said, it's not easy, and it needs regular practice.
When I did my FAA IR, a while ago, I could cope with navigating, talking on the radio, dialling in new frequencies and headings, swapping approach plates, while keeping within 3 degrees and 50 feet - and having the examiner firing questions at me to see if he could overload me.
There comes a point where you go into overload - maybe when the AI topples, or the engine starts misfiring. Then it gets interesting.
I'm lucky: I don't get the "leans" (or never have, yet). BUT if I'm overloaded, the height keeping and heading wander a bit and have to be recovered when the distraction is sorted. Not good.
I'm much happier flying IFR in IMC with another pilot: one of us does radio and plates, bugs and frequencies while the other concentrates on flying the thing. I've happily flown the length of the UK and across large chunks of California like that.
Single-pilot IFR is tough!
The IMC Rating is very well worth doing - even if EASA are ill-advised enough to do away with it, the skills will help you.
When I did my FAA IR, a while ago, I could cope with navigating, talking on the radio, dialling in new frequencies and headings, swapping approach plates, while keeping within 3 degrees and 50 feet - and having the examiner firing questions at me to see if he could overload me.
There comes a point where you go into overload - maybe when the AI topples, or the engine starts misfiring. Then it gets interesting.
I'm lucky: I don't get the "leans" (or never have, yet). BUT if I'm overloaded, the height keeping and heading wander a bit and have to be recovered when the distraction is sorted. Not good.
I'm much happier flying IFR in IMC with another pilot: one of us does radio and plates, bugs and frequencies while the other concentrates on flying the thing. I've happily flown the length of the UK and across large chunks of California like that.
Single-pilot IFR is tough!
The IMC Rating is very well worth doing - even if EASA are ill-advised enough to do away with it, the skills will help you.
can someone explain the "leans"?
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Complex subject, but look here for an introduction :
Sensory illusions in aviation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Sensory illusions in aviation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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That is about the measure of it, except that description gives the impression the pilot starts leaning!
What actually happens is you are overcome (yes, that is the best word for it) with the sensation that the aircraft is turning left or right so you desperately want to compensate with the yoke or stick.
The instruments of course are telling you something quite different - it is bit like being smitten, your senses tell you one thing and your brain something different - you have to hope your brain gets the better of you!
With training you brain does get the better of you, but it is still the most weird sensation.
I wonder how much research has been done. On the few occasions I have had it happen to me there is some commonality. It has always been at the beginning of a flight, and always following a low(ish) level entry into IMC. It usually last for a few minutes and I find it to be a really powerful and distracting sensation even adopting the usual tricks to disperse the feeling.
I have never had it flying a glass system and never at night, but I guess there is always a first time. I also have not had it happen for some time, although I fly less on instruments now than I use too.
I also wonder how many people never came across it during their instrument training but have subsequently. I count myself lucky that I did (experience it during training). It was a comfort to see a nod of the head from the old boy in the right seat, a smile playing on the edge of the lips, and a sanguine, "ah yes, that will be the leans then, lad".
What actually happens is you are overcome (yes, that is the best word for it) with the sensation that the aircraft is turning left or right so you desperately want to compensate with the yoke or stick.
The instruments of course are telling you something quite different - it is bit like being smitten, your senses tell you one thing and your brain something different - you have to hope your brain gets the better of you!
With training you brain does get the better of you, but it is still the most weird sensation.
I wonder how much research has been done. On the few occasions I have had it happen to me there is some commonality. It has always been at the beginning of a flight, and always following a low(ish) level entry into IMC. It usually last for a few minutes and I find it to be a really powerful and distracting sensation even adopting the usual tricks to disperse the feeling.
I have never had it flying a glass system and never at night, but I guess there is always a first time. I also have not had it happen for some time, although I fly less on instruments now than I use too.
I also wonder how many people never came across it during their instrument training but have subsequently. I count myself lucky that I did (experience it during training). It was a comfort to see a nod of the head from the old boy in the right seat, a smile playing on the edge of the lips, and a sanguine, "ah yes, that will be the leans then, lad".
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Do you think the shape of the glareshield can influence the onset of the leans? I get it occasionally in a PA28 which has a curving glareshield but can't recall being affected in a Cessna which is flatter and higher.
DO.
DO.
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The "leans" is something which results from the balance organs feeding information to the brain stem, and thereafter it gets processed into what amounts to an illusion of (wrong) movement.
AFAIK much depends on the orientation of one's head. For example it is advised that one should not look down (e.g. to look for a lost pencil) when instrument flying.
It's quite possible that keeping one's head more upright might help somebody...
Personally I don't get the leans at all. But I would also not depart on any significantly long trip, with IMC potential, single pilot, unless the autopilot was working. It's hard work, if nothing else.
AFAIK much depends on the orientation of one's head. For example it is advised that one should not look down (e.g. to look for a lost pencil) when instrument flying.
It's quite possible that keeping one's head more upright might help somebody...
Personally I don't get the leans at all. But I would also not depart on any significantly long trip, with IMC potential, single pilot, unless the autopilot was working. It's hard work, if nothing else.
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lucky you . . . . !
Personally I don't get the leans at all
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The answer is to believe your instruments and to keep a good scan going confirming what each instrument is saying and backing up each instrument against others.
Remember too that only you know the aircraft is in cloud the aircraft doesnt. As far as its concerned it may as well be in perfect visibility and in sight of the ground.
Ie you can fly quite happily with a trimmed out aircraft with your hands off the column and squeeze the rudder pedal to hold heading.
You can do the same in cloud so let the aircraft fly itself, relax and let it do the work for you.
Cloud density also plays a part. Some is so thin its easier to get a horizon of sorts from the light and shade in the cloud.
Other cloud is so dense you can barely see along the wings.
Equally on top of cloud you can get illusions with the cloud which make you feel you are not level with the horizon.
cloud can have a slope where you attempt to level using the slope as a horizon and again doubt the instruments. Again the answer is getting a good and natural scan and checking one indication against another to confirm its the instrument that is not faulty then make the instruments your no 1 trust item.
Peering in and out doesnt help as that will confuse what your visual mind is tricking you into seeing and what the instruments are telling you what is happening. As soon as you doubt both your building trouble for yourself.
Flying through very heavy streaming rain or even worse heavy snow is something to experience and the only answer there is instruments intruments instruments
Pace
Remember too that only you know the aircraft is in cloud the aircraft doesnt. As far as its concerned it may as well be in perfect visibility and in sight of the ground.
Ie you can fly quite happily with a trimmed out aircraft with your hands off the column and squeeze the rudder pedal to hold heading.
You can do the same in cloud so let the aircraft fly itself, relax and let it do the work for you.
Cloud density also plays a part. Some is so thin its easier to get a horizon of sorts from the light and shade in the cloud.
Other cloud is so dense you can barely see along the wings.
Equally on top of cloud you can get illusions with the cloud which make you feel you are not level with the horizon.
cloud can have a slope where you attempt to level using the slope as a horizon and again doubt the instruments. Again the answer is getting a good and natural scan and checking one indication against another to confirm its the instrument that is not faulty then make the instruments your no 1 trust item.
Peering in and out doesnt help as that will confuse what your visual mind is tricking you into seeing and what the instruments are telling you what is happening. As soon as you doubt both your building trouble for yourself.
Flying through very heavy streaming rain or even worse heavy snow is something to experience and the only answer there is instruments intruments instruments
Pace
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That said, 99% of airways IFR flying is done in sunshine... 
One does the IR so one can sit in sunshine, not in cloud.
Your making me jealous.
I like nothing better than sitting above the cloud in the sunshine in the smooth air. I do find it a bit irritating when the holes start to disapear and have to make the decision to descend or not. Even worse 10 miles later travelling underneath the holes start appearing again. Lucky enough my aircraft can give me 2500fpm so the up bit doesn't take to long.
Oh well life of a VFR pilot ehh. Must get round to doing that IMC one day.
When I was talking about a VAC failure I suppose I was thinking of the school PA 28 and losing their AI, DI and no autopilot.
The autopilt in my RV6 is pretty basic but has it's own internal attitude reference and gets headings from the GPS.
One does the IR so one can sit in sunshine, not in cloud.Your making me jealous.
I like nothing better than sitting above the cloud in the sunshine in the smooth air. I do find it a bit irritating when the holes start to disapear and have to make the decision to descend or not. Even worse 10 miles later travelling underneath the holes start appearing again. Lucky enough my aircraft can give me 2500fpm so the up bit doesn't take to long.
Oh well life of a VFR pilot ehh. Must get round to doing that IMC one day.
When I was talking about a VAC failure I suppose I was thinking of the school PA 28 and losing their AI, DI and no autopilot.
The autopilt in my RV6 is pretty basic but has it's own internal attitude reference and gets headings from the GPS.
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When I was talking about a VAC failure I suppose I was thinking of the school PA 28 and losing their AI, DI and no autopilot.
However, that said flying an aircraft in IMC with a turn and slip and a magnetic compass is, as far as I am concerned at any rate, an emergency. Flying an IAP by hand in that configuration is challenging however good you think you are. We have all done it, if hopefully without an actual failure, but if instrument flying is challenging you have moved into the territory that lies between an aircraft carrier landing and advanced level aeros.