SEP revalidation and training flight question
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What a clever comment. How can I learn to be as funny and perceptive as you?
Judging someone based on an internet bulletin board........Seriously, that is very sad. So imagine what my opinion of someone who thinks chucking insults is a valid form of debate.
BRL, time for a padlock I reckon if this is the level the discussion has reached.
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What a clever comment. How can I learn to be as funny and perceptive as you?
Well I thought it was very funny, Jumbo . . .
Anyway, I have to revalidate before the end of next January. What I thought was a simple task of going flying for an hour with an instructor has now taken on significantly greater emphasis than I previously anticipated. Better steel myself to the possibility of the instructor throwing my logbook back in my face, telling me I'm a danger to everyone in the air and on the ground, and calling every instructor in the SE of England about my incompetence.
Anyway, I have to revalidate before the end of next January. What I thought was a simple task of going flying for an hour with an instructor has now taken on significantly greater emphasis than I previously anticipated. Better steel myself to the possibility of the instructor throwing my logbook back in my face, telling me I'm a danger to everyone in the air and on the ground, and calling every instructor in the SE of England about my incompetence.
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Well if you are bad enough, then yep. Expect the worst. Though it might be better if I rang each and every FI and Examiner in the UK and then also rang the CAA to have your licence revoked.
I might even do the same for every other pilot you've ever met, just to be on the safe side.
That'll cover it. No hang on, why don't I just e-mail the government and get them to ban any non-professional flying. That should keep us all safe.................
I might even do the same for every other pilot you've ever met, just to be on the safe side.
That'll cover it. No hang on, why don't I just e-mail the government and get them to ban any non-professional flying. That should keep us all safe.................
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You'd better believe it. As I sit here typing my minions are already tracking you, to ensure that the CAA are aware of your inability to have a polite conversation.
That should ensure at least a months worth of extra CRM courses for you before your next duty.
Or am I just taking the mick as a "pretender to knowledge". Seriously I haven't laughed as much for ages. To be called a fake on a website by someone calling themself "Jumbo Driver". Brilliant!
It really is true though, the level of posting on Pprune really has dropped through the floor in the past few years. No wonder so many people avoid the place like the plague.
Just a small waste of bandwidth going on here don't you think?
That should ensure at least a months worth of extra CRM courses for you before your next duty.
Or am I just taking the mick as a "pretender to knowledge". Seriously I haven't laughed as much for ages. To be called a fake on a website by someone calling themself "Jumbo Driver". Brilliant!
It really is true though, the level of posting on Pprune really has dropped through the floor in the past few years. No wonder so many people avoid the place like the plague.
Just a small waste of bandwidth going on here don't you think?
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Say again slowly is 100% right on this one, and I'm only coming back to the thread to support him. I raised two issues in the past, RT standards, and one re the UK invasion of LFAT. I was accused of whinging and being pedantic.
I have never had a problem with any of the many "inst dual" flights, or reval/renewal tests I have conducted. My priority is always to help people continue flying or come back to flying, and close to their original PPL standard. Is that unreasonable? As for LASORS, yes it is guidance but what else is there? And it is provided as the main source of CAA info. Can you imagine if during a court case a defence was " I take no notice of LASORS, it's only for guidance and anyway I disagree with the guy who wrote it" !
I have never had a problem with any of the many "inst dual" flights, or reval/renewal tests I have conducted. My priority is always to help people continue flying or come back to flying, and close to their original PPL standard. Is that unreasonable? As for LASORS, yes it is guidance but what else is there? And it is provided as the main source of CAA info. Can you imagine if during a court case a defence was " I take no notice of LASORS, it's only for guidance and anyway I disagree with the guy who wrote it" !
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pembroke, you are absolutely right that an instructor should be there to "help people continue flying or come back to flying". Yes, indeed LASORS is there for guidance - but the caveat must be that it is only guidance.
Without wishing to re-open the topic again (which I think has been rather beaten to death here), there are places - and the paragraph on the revalidation "Training Flight" is a prime example - where LASORS actually becomes misinformation, that is to say when it acts as a vehicle for imparting opinions, rather than indexing legislative fact. That is a great shame because it serves to devalue an otherwise sensible reference document.
In your hypothetical Court Case, imagine the prosecution asking "you say it says so in LASORS - I see, and what exactly then is the legal basis for your actions?" You then need to refer to the actual legislation - where would you be then?
I have no wish to re-open the "flood-gates" but I thought your valid point needed a response.
JD
PS Were you a FEEP ?
Without wishing to re-open the topic again (which I think has been rather beaten to death here), there are places - and the paragraph on the revalidation "Training Flight" is a prime example - where LASORS actually becomes misinformation, that is to say when it acts as a vehicle for imparting opinions, rather than indexing legislative fact. That is a great shame because it serves to devalue an otherwise sensible reference document.
In your hypothetical Court Case, imagine the prosecution asking "you say it says so in LASORS - I see, and what exactly then is the legal basis for your actions?" You then need to refer to the actual legislation - where would you be then?
I have no wish to re-open the "flood-gates" but I thought your valid point needed a response.
JD
PS Were you a FEEP ?
Oh dear. I think we are getting carried away here and missing the point. The fact is that ANY training flight of at least an hour with a Flight Instructor in the last 12 months of Class Rating validity counts towards revalidation. It doesn't matter if the instructor knew that it was going to be used for that purpose or not. It's routine that instructors sign people's logbooks after training flights or after a series of flights to certify that the entry/entries are correct, and that is all that is required.
MJ
Ps. the answer to the original question is Put. Its not a training flight if you log it as anything else.
MJ
Ps. the answer to the original question is Put. Its not a training flight if you log it as anything else.
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As a small point since people keep mentioning hypothetical court cases that have never and will never occur......
All law is subject to review, clarification and interpretation. If it wasn't then most lawyers wouldn't have much to do.
I had dinner with one of the senior partners from my law firm this evening and we discussed this situation. Both of us had the same opinion.(Though to be fair hers is far more valid than mine, seeing as I'm an ex-law student, not an equity partner in a massive law firm!) Whilst the legislation doesn't mention the training flight directly, the fact that there is a publication such as LASORS written by the same organisation who enforce and write the rules we are supposed to follow, then the opinion in LASORS is something that can be taken as more than mere guidance. It is a recommendation of course and can be ignorned if you wish, however if you were to follow it to the letter and with the interpretation that I see, then you would be well within your rights to do so and certainly would not leave yourself open to any legal problems.
You could of course go after the CAA for producing a document that you may feel doesn't accurately reflect what you think it should and may I offer you my best wishes if you wish to do so. However, the individual FI or school choosing to follow the guidance laid down are totally within their rights to do so.
But obviously the barrack room lawyers on here know better. Especially as we've all passed air law. That makes you an expert in legal matters doesn't it..................
FI's also don't routinely sign logbooks, especially since the 1 hour training flight came in in 2001. A CFI will do so at the end of a training course before the book is sent off to the CAA for licence or rating issue to certify that the logbook contains true and accurate figures, but it is not done after every flight by an individual FI. Your records will be annotated with flight times and excercise numbers along with comments about the conduct of the flight and what has or hasn't been completed.
All law is subject to review, clarification and interpretation. If it wasn't then most lawyers wouldn't have much to do.
I had dinner with one of the senior partners from my law firm this evening and we discussed this situation. Both of us had the same opinion.(Though to be fair hers is far more valid than mine, seeing as I'm an ex-law student, not an equity partner in a massive law firm!) Whilst the legislation doesn't mention the training flight directly, the fact that there is a publication such as LASORS written by the same organisation who enforce and write the rules we are supposed to follow, then the opinion in LASORS is something that can be taken as more than mere guidance. It is a recommendation of course and can be ignorned if you wish, however if you were to follow it to the letter and with the interpretation that I see, then you would be well within your rights to do so and certainly would not leave yourself open to any legal problems.
You could of course go after the CAA for producing a document that you may feel doesn't accurately reflect what you think it should and may I offer you my best wishes if you wish to do so. However, the individual FI or school choosing to follow the guidance laid down are totally within their rights to do so.
But obviously the barrack room lawyers on here know better. Especially as we've all passed air law. That makes you an expert in legal matters doesn't it..................
FI's also don't routinely sign logbooks, especially since the 1 hour training flight came in in 2001. A CFI will do so at the end of a training course before the book is sent off to the CAA for licence or rating issue to certify that the logbook contains true and accurate figures, but it is not done after every flight by an individual FI. Your records will be annotated with flight times and excercise numbers along with comments about the conduct of the flight and what has or hasn't been completed.
Last edited by Say again s l o w l y; 26th Jun 2008 at 00:22.
So what's to stop someone doing , for instance, a Night Qualification and then, retrospectively, using one of those flights to qualify for revalidation?
MJ
MJ
Last edited by Mach Jump; 26th Jun 2008 at 00:45.
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The log book would be signed or stamped by the CFI to show a completed training course, not an individual flight.
However, there is nothing to stop one of the flights being used as the "training flight." I certainly would have no issue with that, it's just that the logbook would need to be annotated to meet the requirements.
Not something that would be done as a matter of course unless asked for, though I certainly ask people when their SEP rating runs out so if we can meet the requirements as I see them in a "normal" training flight, then that would be sensible rather than wasting a members money and time doing an unnecessary and seperate flight when with just a signature you can fulfil the requirements as long as the student has flown to a decent standard, which would usually be a formality if you've done something like a night rating course with them.
However, there is nothing to stop one of the flights being used as the "training flight." I certainly would have no issue with that, it's just that the logbook would need to be annotated to meet the requirements.
Not something that would be done as a matter of course unless asked for, though I certainly ask people when their SEP rating runs out so if we can meet the requirements as I see them in a "normal" training flight, then that would be sensible rather than wasting a members money and time doing an unnecessary and seperate flight when with just a signature you can fulfil the requirements as long as the student has flown to a decent standard, which would usually be a formality if you've done something like a night rating course with them.
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However, there is nothing to stop one of the flights being used as the "training flight." I certainly would have no issue with that, it's just that the logbook would need to be annotated to meet the requirements.
ANY flight of 1hr or greater with an Instructor counts as the flight towards the revalidation requirements. When are you going to get it into your head that their is no requirement to write anything in the pilots logbook apart from your signature and CAA reference number to confirm that a dual flight took place.
To answer machJump CORRECTLY, yes any of the DUAL sessions from the night rating as long as they were greater than 1hr would count towards revalidation.
I sign every students log book that carries my name as pilot in command. If you do a flight with an Instructor that is a dual flight make sure you ask that they sign. As an examiner I check the logbook for the last dual flight greater than 1hr, that the required number of hours have been flown for revalidation by experience and that the licence is valid. I then sign in the correct space and send the SRG1119 to the CAA.
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I had dinner with one of the senior partners from my law firm this evening and we discussed this situation
? What were you thinking?
Both of us had the same opinion
?
But obviously the barrack room lawyers on here know better. Especially as we've all passed air law. That makes you an expert in legal matters doesn't it..................
- This, however, merely means that we do not all feel the need to validate our opinions by mentioning our professional qualifications 
Honestly SAS, I'd quit while you're behind
.Morning All, enq.