Looking outside
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I also learned to fly at a busy airfield in Essex and it was exactly as you describe. You simply get used to it. I suppose that my point is that the downwind point i.e. level with the upwind end of the runway and at circuit height is not appreciated properly. After all, the circuit calls are for the benefit of those in or near the circuit mainly for avoidance purposes.
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I wonder what you all might make of the following?
From what you describe, I think that you may have cut it up in the circuit, as you made a non standard join and flew through where this aircraft was aiming for, it definitely being in the circuit, having just taken off.
I would keep a better look out next time.
From what you describe, I think that you may have cut it up in the circuit, as you made a non standard join and flew through where this aircraft was aiming for, it definitely being in the circuit, having just taken off.
I would keep a better look out next time.
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This is the approved join at this airfield. I suggest that you take a piece of paper and a pencil and draw out what happened. You may understand a little better instead of jumping to wrong conclusions. The other aircraft could not have followed the practise at this airfield which is a minimum 500' turnout clear of the field.
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Quote:The question still arises. Who has more responsibility? The bloke looking forward and descending or the bloke straight and level? How anyone can descend without having a look first I don't know.
Who has more responsibility? Everyone.
Who has more responsibility? Everyone.
Quite right but I was responding to the kicking the first poster was getting from everyone else. He has less chance of seeing behind him than the other pilot has of seeing in front yet he was the one flamed. A BOI would place the descending driver at fault.
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This is the approved join at this airfield. I suggest that you take a piece of paper and a pencil and draw out what happened. You may understand a little better instead of jumping to wrong conclusions. The other aircraft could not have followed the practise at this airfield which is a minimum 500' turnout clear of the field.
If you had bothered to explain in a little more detail, your post may have made more sense
If you had bothered to explain in a little more detail, your post may have made more sense
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Interesting thread..... Seems a lot of problems are our own doing, "pushing in" on circuits etc, classics like VOR station overheads, centre of airways following GPS etc....
One thing that always worries me, is if you suddenly find your windscreen filled with another aircraft, will you both remember the turn right rule, or will self preservation take over and will each of you go for the slightly easier avoidance turn and end up playing airbourne chicken...
The only times I have been in REAL fear of a mid-air , well the first one was at Ormond beach in Florida, where after 7pm the airfield becomes uncontrolled so it is down to your discretion which runway to land etc. I had been for a bimble up the coast and back, and joined the circuit in use by THREE
other c-150's practicing thier night landings on runway 35. Joined and did a full stop landing, then went again for a few more circuits..... Well, on climbout of my third circuit, in the gap I had engineered myself after the other 3 a/c ( all in runway 35 circuit and spaced nicely), to my shock I saw a landing light coming straight at me, with the radio bursting into life announcing " Embray riddle xxxx, short finals for runway 17 practice VOR approach" 
, I had to make a sharp turn to the right, which took me well off the circuit, and the other a/c did not even move, just ploughed straight on and landed on 17 AGAINST the four aircraft n the circuit ..... As a low hours PPL student , that really knocked my confidence in the "see and avoid" principle. ( and yes, all 4 of us training at OBA put a complaint in, don't know if there was ever an outcome)...
Second time was being aerotowed in a glider, about 1000 feet just making our first turn, a warrior flew about 3' above us coming at 90° across our path, right through the middle of the ATZ , luckily me, my instructor and the tug driver had seen him , and taken avoiding action by decending hard, but it is scary how easily and quickly other A/C pop up without seemingly having a clue where they are, or about others in their vicinity....
In my eyes, the ONLY way to fly safly is to be eyes outside for 95% of the time, all the gps/tcas/ris/ras in the world is no help if some plank has decided to ingnore everything and fly where the hell he likes
.
One thing that always worries me, is if you suddenly find your windscreen filled with another aircraft, will you both remember the turn right rule, or will self preservation take over and will each of you go for the slightly easier avoidance turn and end up playing airbourne chicken
...The only times I have been in REAL fear of a mid-air , well the first one was at Ormond beach in Florida, where after 7pm the airfield becomes uncontrolled so it is down to your discretion which runway to land etc. I had been for a bimble up the coast and back, and joined the circuit in use by THREE
other c-150's practicing thier night landings on runway 35. Joined and did a full stop landing, then went again for a few more circuits..... Well, on climbout of my third circuit, in the gap I had engineered myself after the other 3 a/c ( all in runway 35 circuit and spaced nicely), to my shock I saw a landing light coming straight at me, with the radio bursting into life announcing " Embray riddle xxxx, short finals for runway 17 practice VOR approach" , I had to make a sharp turn to the right, which took me well off the circuit, and the other a/c did not even move, just ploughed straight on and landed on 17 AGAINST the four aircraft n the circuit ..... As a low hours PPL student , that really knocked my confidence in the "see and avoid" principle. ( and yes, all 4 of us training at OBA put a complaint in, don't know if there was ever an outcome)...Second time was being aerotowed in a glider, about 1000 feet just making our first turn, a warrior flew about 3' above us coming at 90° across our path
, right through the middle of the ATZ , luckily me, my instructor and the tug driver had seen him , and taken avoiding action by decending hard, but it is scary how easily and quickly other A/C pop up without seemingly having a clue where they are, or about others in their vicinity....In my eyes, the ONLY way to fly safly is to be eyes outside for 95% of the time, all the gps/tcas/ris/ras in the world is no help if some plank has decided to ingnore everything and fly where the hell he likes
.
Thread Starter
SNS3Guppy said
Couldn't have put it better myself if I'd thought it out with both hands for a fortnight.
Here is a little rhyme to follow
Here lie the bones of Billie Day
Who died defending his right of way
He was right, dead right, as he flew along
But he's just as dead as if he'd been wrong.
heads UP please. It might be me you hit while you are fiddling with your GPS and I still say Saints preserve us from those who expect the radio to tell them about all the other traffic. It won't land the aircraft for you, either.
Who has more responsibility? Everyone.
Look for traffic like your life depends upon it. Because it does.
Descents and climbs should be punctuated with clearing turns to ensure there's no traffic one is overtaking, or which is overtaking one from beneath or above. In level flight one should make frequently clearing checks around the aircraft to view blind spots. Same for turns. Know who's out there, and don't let the radio spot traffic for you. It can certainly help, but nothing replaces what you can see.
Look for traffic like your life depends upon it. Because it does.
Descents and climbs should be punctuated with clearing turns to ensure there's no traffic one is overtaking, or which is overtaking one from beneath or above. In level flight one should make frequently clearing checks around the aircraft to view blind spots. Same for turns. Know who's out there, and don't let the radio spot traffic for you. It can certainly help, but nothing replaces what you can see.
Here is a little rhyme to follow
Here lie the bones of Billie Day
Who died defending his right of way
He was right, dead right, as he flew along
But he's just as dead as if he'd been wrong.
heads UP please. It might be me you hit while you are fiddling with your GPS and I still say Saints preserve us from those who expect the radio to tell them about all the other traffic. It won't land the aircraft for you, either.
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Exactly the same at sea,same nav rules as air for the most part.
Expect the other craft to obey rules of road ,but if he does not then take appropriate avoiding action.
The captains prime concern is to avoid an accident,does not matter who is right or wrong.
Lister
Expect the other craft to obey rules of road ,but if he does not then take appropriate avoiding action.
The captains prime concern is to avoid an accident,does not matter who is right or wrong.
Lister
