ENGINE OUT - low level
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ENGINE OUT - low level
I was wondering - If one was ever unfortunate to have an engine out (SE), low level i.e. 50-500 feet, and were forced to stop on remaining runway or adjacent field, would you apply flaps full straight away or just get it down clean?
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Lucky never to have had that...
At 50 feet i d whack on all flaps and reduce speed as much as possible and stall the aircraft onto the ground
Above that flaps should be used as and when, when you know you can get into the spot you want to be (as per your PFL training), but you d always end up with full flap i d say
At 50 feet i d whack on all flaps and reduce speed as much as possible and stall the aircraft onto the ground
Above that flaps should be used as and when, when you know you can get into the spot you want to be (as per your PFL training), but you d always end up with full flap i d say
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This completely depends on how much runway there is or where the field is (some fields you can just be getting to 50' by the boundary - or certainly not have enough left to land in), if you are just getting to the airfield boundary you may need to leave the flaps to make the field. This is something you should be looking at just before TO and planning for as much as possible.
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Not sure if there'd be time to think about flap, especially at such a low altitude!
I'd lower the nose first to keep the aircraft from stalling - surely that's the most important thing? Once you've got that sorted, and picked a landing spot, then I'd worry about flap.
Smithy
I'd lower the nose first to keep the aircraft from stalling - surely that's the most important thing? Once you've got that sorted, and picked a landing spot, then I'd worry about flap.
Smithy
Fly the aeroplane
If you are high and/or fast for the field you need to get into, get the flaps out to shed energy and look to other energy-losing measures. (See your text book).
Otherwise keep the aircraft clean (conserve energy) until you are absolutely certain of making the field.
Otherwise keep the aircraft clean (conserve energy) until you are absolutely certain of making the field.
First of all Get the nose down -- your first priority is to maintain flying speed.
Once at best glide, use the available time to consider your options and if time permits, try to get the engine going again: fuel on, primer locked, carb heat on.
From 50' you'll likely be on the ground before you have time to get your hand to the flap control.
Pick the softest spot and land there.
It helps to know the terrain about your local field and pick places ahead of time where you can try to put the plane down in various situations. A good time to review these locations is at the end of the takeoff checklist.
Once at best glide, use the available time to consider your options and if time permits, try to get the engine going again: fuel on, primer locked, carb heat on.
From 50' you'll likely be on the ground before you have time to get your hand to the flap control.
Pick the softest spot and land there.
It helps to know the terrain about your local field and pick places ahead of time where you can try to put the plane down in various situations. A good time to review these locations is at the end of the takeoff checklist.
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Aim to walk away
So land wherever you can at slowest speed commensurate with safe flight, this is likely to be with full flap. 500' not too bad, 50' problem not insurmountable in most airfield localities. Like most things it depends...
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Thankyou
Thats really useful from everyone thankyou!
You know, i like to think NOSE DOWN would come as an instinctive reaction but it wasnt on my top priority list when considering the scenario, so thanks for the refresher. i think it is important to keep these things practised regularly with this in mind.
Seems, speed high or/both space low - flap full!
You know, i like to think NOSE DOWN would come as an instinctive reaction but it wasnt on my top priority list when considering the scenario, so thanks for the refresher. i think it is important to keep these things practised regularly with this in mind.
Seems, speed high or/both space low - flap full!
Had to do that once, land on the remaining runway.
152 had a magneto go out of timing, internal gear had sheared off.
About a 100' in the air on a 5000' runway.
Lowered the nose put full flap down, it takes a fraction of a second to reach the flap lever. Don't recall how far they made it dowbn before we touched down. Without flap I would have gone off the end no doubt.
Me thinks it would have to do with your reaction time also.
If you are slow in getting the nose down the speed will have deteriorated so much already that pushing the nose down to recover the speed will have the same effect as application of flaps, loss of excess altitude.
Too slow and flaps down will not (depending on altitude) give you sufficient height to recover energy to flare, very heavy landing with excessive rate of descent.
Landing distances in the POH always state the conditions, eg full flap threshold speed 58 kts etc etc.
So to me flaps down would always seem to be the better option, unless you're too slow.
152 had a magneto go out of timing, internal gear had sheared off.
About a 100' in the air on a 5000' runway.
Lowered the nose put full flap down, it takes a fraction of a second to reach the flap lever. Don't recall how far they made it dowbn before we touched down. Without flap I would have gone off the end no doubt.
Me thinks it would have to do with your reaction time also.
If you are slow in getting the nose down the speed will have deteriorated so much already that pushing the nose down to recover the speed will have the same effect as application of flaps, loss of excess altitude.
Too slow and flaps down will not (depending on altitude) give you sufficient height to recover energy to flare, very heavy landing with excessive rate of descent.
Landing distances in the POH always state the conditions, eg full flap threshold speed 58 kts etc etc.
So to me flaps down would always seem to be the better option, unless you're too slow.
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I recently spent about an hour or so practising low level EFATOs and turnbacks in this flight simulator. Admittedly it isn't entirely like the real thing, i.e. if you get it wrong you can just reset the scenario versus the small matter of crashing/dying, however it was quite educational and fairly realistic.
Turnbacks are another matter, but for landing on, certainly in the C172 model I was flying, you needed a prompt bunt into the gliding attitude. Any hesitation in this cost you a serious amount of time and height. In that sort of height bracket you really don't have much time to do anything once you've realised the engine has failed, adopted the correct attitude, and most importantly, once your head has caught up with the aircraft. Unless you've got things fully thought out and you're prepared on a hairs trigger to leap in to action i'd imagine you're going to simply land-on or perhaps turn in to wind, or a favourable direction (i.e. no buildings, suitable terrain, etc).
The biggest lesson from that session was that you need to mentally rehearse your take off and initial climb out, and form a very definite plan of action for an emergency - And then stick to it if things do go bad!
Turnbacks are another matter, but for landing on, certainly in the C172 model I was flying, you needed a prompt bunt into the gliding attitude. Any hesitation in this cost you a serious amount of time and height. In that sort of height bracket you really don't have much time to do anything once you've realised the engine has failed, adopted the correct attitude, and most importantly, once your head has caught up with the aircraft. Unless you've got things fully thought out and you're prepared on a hairs trigger to leap in to action i'd imagine you're going to simply land-on or perhaps turn in to wind, or a favourable direction (i.e. no buildings, suitable terrain, etc).
The biggest lesson from that session was that you need to mentally rehearse your take off and initial climb out, and form a very definite plan of action for an emergency - And then stick to it if things do go bad!
get flying speed first
I'm a relatively low hours PPL with some gliding experience but FWIW: I'd be very aware of is the need to get flying speed asap - only then add flap. Flap adds drag and could cause you to stall if you hadn't reached flying/control speed. Only add flap when you're assured of the landing.
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Flying speed
Rusty You will have flying speed until stalling speed for the configuration. Attitude is very important hence lower nose and then act as necessary. When a light aircraft loses engine power it is usual for it to descend pretty much straight away and unless prevented will tend to go nose down and may be even wing down. On EFATO even after a go around following PFL practise we are looking for the student to adopt a safe and helpful attitude first and then to deal with the plan for landing.
Time to build up flying speed
First push the nose down - there will be a lag between doing that and reaching flying speed. Putting flap down immediately i.e. before reaching flying speed could make a bad situation worse.
That's how I've always practiced them (and done once for real)
NOTE - this is more is an issue in an aircraft with a lot drag - and grooved into my brain is the standard cable break procedure with gliders. So you probably will be already at flying speed and able to drop flap. I still believe that's it's wise to do this only once you're absolutely in flying control. When it happened to me (Cessna 152 on a very hot day at circuit height) I found that the extra control from speed in a clean configuration made things straightforward,
But dropping flap depends on speed, attitude and height when the engine stops.
This is a more complicated discussion than I realised - but worth thinking about.
That's how I've always practiced them (and done once for real)
NOTE - this is more is an issue in an aircraft with a lot drag - and grooved into my brain is the standard cable break procedure with gliders. So you probably will be already at flying speed and able to drop flap. I still believe that's it's wise to do this only once you're absolutely in flying control. When it happened to me (Cessna 152 on a very hot day at circuit height) I found that the extra control from speed in a clean configuration made things straightforward,
But dropping flap depends on speed, attitude and height when the engine stops.
This is a more complicated discussion than I realised - but worth thinking about.
Last edited by rusty sparrow; 3rd Apr 2008 at 04:52. Reason: clarification
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Generally (I'm sure someone can find an exception) best glide speed is somewhat less than Vy (best climb speed), and probably less than, or in the reigon of Vx (best angle climb).
What I'm wittering about is: You *will* have flying speed (you'd hope so at 50ft, or anything above 0ft really). You may even be faster than Vfe..
Otherwise, common sense:
Nose level/down, quickly assess.
If landing ahead within the field is an option, ignore best glide and get down asap - flap if possible / practical / within limits, sideslip etc - have the accident on the ground if necessary.
If not, trade speed while slowing to best glide, and don't jump for the flaps yet..
and no big turns..
What I'm wittering about is: You *will* have flying speed (you'd hope so at 50ft, or anything above 0ft really). You may even be faster than Vfe..
Otherwise, common sense:
Nose level/down, quickly assess.
If landing ahead within the field is an option, ignore best glide and get down asap - flap if possible / practical / within limits, sideslip etc - have the accident on the ground if necessary.
If not, trade speed while slowing to best glide, and don't jump for the flaps yet..
and no big turns..
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I think you will find that instant nose down is pretty much instinctive (it was for me, anyway). But from a typical rotate attitude to a dead engine glide is quite a big change in pitch and speed will decrease rapidly while the aircraft responds, especially without propwash. It's likely that the stall warner will accompany you all the way to the ground.
From 30' there's no time to think about flaps or ASI. Just fly the plane.
If you have time to think of one thing, make it "close the throttle"!
From 30' there's no time to think about flaps or ASI. Just fly the plane.
If you have time to think of one thing, make it "close the throttle"!
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Thanks All!
Thanks to contributors on the thread - i will certainly feel more relaxed in dealing with the eventuality now, as will have planned ahead for it in my own mind.
An unpleasant scenario, but if an engine is going to give-up then this i suppose is the time when it most likely will, cold and fully opened-up.
All the best and safe flying all
An unpleasant scenario, but if an engine is going to give-up then this i suppose is the time when it most likely will, cold and fully opened-up.
All the best and safe flying all
